How would Hillary be doing right now?

[Bob Blaylock]

That's the wild card in this calculation and I don't know how it plays out. I was wondering what other people had to say about that issue. I thought it would be disastrous for Clinton and yet she almost won the nomination in spite of it. I wondered how she managed to dodge questions about the Mark Rich pardons.

The major fall back for Clinton was exactly what Upchurch just said: Most people, if given the chance, would take eight additional years of Bill Clinton instead of the last eight years of Bush. People care more about the governance of the country than the personal foibles of the leader and most people see Bush as some kind of disaster. A lot of flack aimed at H. Clinton would not have had traction just because of that.

Much of the Clintons' corruption hit directly at the heart of the issues of “the governance of the country”. The Mark Rich pardon, certainly, and don't forget Hillary's scheme to destroy the health care industry and replace it with a massive, corruption-ridden Soviet-style bureaucracy. And Hillary's own “personal foibles” indicate her to be corrupt, sociopathic, power-crazed, and someone who can be counted on, in any position of power, to use that power before all else in pursuit of her own selfish interests, at the expense of those that she is supposed to be serving.

People have forgotten this, but if Hillary was still in the race at this point, you can be sure that this would all be brought back into public attention.

It's dismaying to see that the Presidential election has devolved into the sort of conflict where each side has little better to do than to look for whatever dirt it can dig up against the other side. As it is now, at least both sides are having to put forth a considerable effort at this, though. With Hillary Clinton in the race, this would become much, much easier for her opponent. There is a considerable surfeit of dirt on her, just barely below the threshold of most voters' memory. It would take little effort, I think, to make people remember just what Hillary clearly showed us about her morals (or lack thereof), her ethics (or lack thereof), and her character (or lack thereof) back when her Husband was President.

 

[leftysergeant]

Hillary could also have beaten McCain, but not by as wide a margin as Obama is likely to manage. A lot of Hillary's support in the primaries may have been a false-flag operation, which would have vaporized after the nomination. PUMA is totally a false-flag op.

Obama's support was all genuine. Still is, even if merely acceptance that their first choice lost. I was for Edwards to the moment he dropped out. I didn't even have to think when deciding between Clinton and Obama.

 

[gdnp]

don't forget Hillary's scheme to destroy the health care industry and replace it with a massive, corruption-ridden Soviet-style bureaucracy.

Ah. I had forgotten this. thanks for reminding us

(backs away slowly....)

And Hillary's own “personal foibles” indicate her to be corrupt, sociopathic, power-crazed, and someone who can be counted on, in any position of power, to use that power before all else in pursuit of her own selfish interests, at the expense of those that she is supposed to be serving.

And yet half of the voters in the Democratic primaries supporter her. Go figure.

 

[EGarrett]

That's an interesting persepective! Why do you think that? I mean, about a Hillary/Obama ticket being further ahead. That's something I hadn't considered.

For the simple reason that there would be no PUMA's or dissension in the Democratic ranks.

Of course, by the same token, McCain would probably have a running mate who wouldn't be embarrassing him left and right, but I still think the Hillbamatron would be rolling like thunder.

 

[davefoc]

For the simple reason that there would be no PUMA's or dissension in the Democratic ranks.

Of course, by the same token, McCain would probably have a running mate who wouldn't be embarrassing him left and right, but I still think the Hillbamatron would be rolling like thunder.

Perhaps memories fade to the point that the Clinton craziness towards the end of her campaign would not matter, but I thought Obama/Clinton was a marginal idea before the Clinton actions at the end of the campaign. After that is seemed like it was a non-starter. If she was the VP pick right now I think her actions at the end would be front and center topics in this campaign. And coupled with the miscellaneous baggage she was trailing I'm thinking Obama/Clinton would be really be struggling right now.

Plus, they weren't that good a fit. Both had similar weaknesses and strengths. Biden brought more legislative experience, a more detailed knowledge of Iraq and less personal drama.

 

[rdaneel]

Perhaps memories fade to the point that the Clinton craziness towards the end of her campaign would not matter, but I thought Obama/Clinton was a marginal idea before the Clinton actions at the end of the campaign. After that is seemed like it was a non-starter. If she was the VP pick right now I think her actions at the end would be front and center topics in this campaign. And coupled with the miscellaneous baggage she was trailing I'm thinking Obama/Clinton would be really be struggling right now.

Agreed, we saw how Palin tried to use Bidens primary campaign rhetoric against him. It didn't get her very far in that case, but they would have far more ammo against Hillary.

 

[SezMe]

There is no way there would have been a Clinton/Obama ticket:

1) Slick was (is?) really pissed at Obama for nearly (in our imaginary scenario here) derailing Hillary's candidacy. I think she still takes enough advice from Bill and he would have been waving the veto pen like crazy.
2) Hillary could not afford to have a VP who could potentially out-shine her on the campaign trail - and subsequently in office.

So, while I recognize we're playing "what if" here, I think some reality should be included.

The only other thing I am sure of is that Palin would not have gotten the VP nod because she would not bring the female vote and better candidates exist to solidify the Elephant base. Say Jindel or Crist. Or even Pawlenty. Or maybe McCain might have had a more open field for selecting a VP since the selection of Clinton would have already electrified the Republican base so that would not have been such an important consideration.

I think the campaign would have been much rougher and October, while it will prove to be ugly in real life, in the Clinton scenario I cannot imagine how vicious it would have gotten. All of Slick's messes would be on the table again and Hillary's sins (both real and imagined) would be in play. Gawd what a mud slinger it would have been.

Where would she be relative to McCain. About even or maybe a little behind.

 

[Roadtoad]

There is no way there would have been a Clinton/Obama ticket:

1) Slick was (is?) really pissed at Obama for nearly (in our imaginary scenario here) derailing Hillary's candidacy. I think she still takes enough advice from Bill and he would have been waving the veto pen like crazy.
2) Hillary could not afford to have a VP who could potentially out-shine her on the campaign trail - and subsequently in office.

So, while I recognize we're playing "what if" here, I think some reality should be included.

The only other thing I am sure of is that Palin would not have gotten the VP nod because she would not bring the female vote and better candidates exist to solidify the Elephant base. Say Jindel or Crist. Or even Pawlenty. Or maybe McCain might have had a more open field for selecting a VP since the selection of Clinton would have already electrified the Republican base so that would not have been such an important consideration.

I think the campaign would have been much rougher and October, while it will prove to be ugly in real life, in the Clinton scenario I cannot imagine how vicious it would have gotten. All of Slick's messes would be on the table again and Hillary's sins (both real and imagined) would be in play. Gawd what a mud slinger it would have been.

Where would she be relative to McCain. About even or maybe a little behind.

I'm not so sure about that, SM.

True, Hillary has some baggage, but consider that over the past few years, she's been able to handle it. The fact that she actually managed to win her Senate seat, (and did so with remarkably little help from Bill), not to mention that she's been gradually working into a leadership role, show that this isn't the handicap the Republicans would have liked it to be.

In fact, one thing remains clear: Hillary might have been the better candidate for President, and would probably have taken all the marbles had she gained the nomination. She's probably not the nicest candidate, but in the end, she's probably the most competent. She's certainly been tempering the rhetoric over the past few years.

Oddly enough, in reading The Seduction of Hillary Rodham, I actually found there was a lot about the woman to like. She's tough, and would probably have taken a much harder line than Obama when it comes to Iran. As to Health Care, I'm thinking she learned a lot from the failure of '93, and would probably have been far more open to new ideas that might have solved a lot of the problems associated with her earlier plan.

So, no, I think if anything, Hillary would be slightly ahead. It wouldn't have been a runaway, (too many people still listen to that freakish gasbag, Limbaugh), but McCain would probably lose in the end.

 

[Morrigan]

and don't forget Hillary's scheme to destroy the health care industry and replace it with a massive, corruption-ridden Soviet-style bureaucracy.

....Whaaaaa?

 

[GreyICE]

If Clinton had debated Palin, she would have eaten her alive. Biden was much too soft on her, giving her little smiles all the time...

Yeah, you're right. Man, I would have paid to see that. No need to come off as vicious, Hillary would have eaten the twit alive.

As for how Hillary would be doing, about the same. It's really hard to raise the specter of Clinton here. Most people are looking back and asking "What did Clinton do that was so bad?" I mean he was a liberal! He allowed gays in the military under his "don't ask, don't tell" policy which was... err... what the military had been doing already. And he signed the DOMA into law (oh wait, don't we support that?)! And he signed the Brady Bill which did... err... not too much really.

Really the only thing funnier than the conservatives who pee themselves at the name of Clinton are the liberals who think he was some sort of liberal superhero. The man defined the word Republicrat.

So really, it would be the same thing. I think the attack ads would be going on pretty strong, but Clinton is a very good speaker and I don't think her liberal (or at least more liberal then her (dare I say it) conservative husband) policies would hamper her much.

P.S. The conspiracy theorists are so insane they might actually hamper McCain's cause. It's hard to appeal to moderates when you have a group of people frothing at the mouth behind you and screaming about soviet-style policies and gulags and stuff. I could dredge up "Goodbye to the Black Helicopters" again if you think these people wouldn't come off as farking nuts.

 

[RandFan]

After my favorite, Edwards dropped out...

We dodged a bullet on that one.

...I shifted to Obama, but even at the time I admitted that Clinton had more experience and quite possibly would be a better president. My problem with Clinton is that I saw her as less electable, because she would roust the discontented radical right out of their complacency to go out and vote against the woman they have hated for so very long.

I think this a fair assesment. I found Hillary obnoxiously arrogant, patronizing and condecending. I did not like her. I had commited to voting Democrat and it left a bad taste in my mouth that I might actually have to vote for her. Thank god and Obama that isn't going to happen.

FTR: I don't think Hillary had a better chance than Obama but I'm quite certain that come election time she would have won.

 

[Roadtoad]

We dodged a bullet on that one...

More like an artillery round.

 

[GreyICE]

I think this a fair assesment. I found Hillary obnoxiously arrogant, patronizing and condecending. I did not like her. I had commited to voting Democrat and it left a bad taste in my mouth that I might actually have to vote for her. Thank god and Obama that isn't going to happen.

FTR: I don't think Hillary had a better chance than Obama but I'm quite certain that come election time she would have won.

Hell, how do you think I felt when I punched the ticket for Kerry in 2004? I wanted to punch the voting machine instead.

 

[Roadtoad]

Hell, how do you think I felt when I punched the ticket for Kerry in 2004? I wanted to punch the voting machine instead.

I've felt that way ever since 1984.

 

[EGarrett]

Perhaps memories fade to the point that the Clinton craziness towards the end of her campaign would not matter, but I thought Obama/Clinton was a marginal idea before the Clinton actions at the end of the campaign. After that is seemed like it was a non-starter. If she was the VP pick right now I think her actions at the end would be front and center topics in this campaign.

It's certainly possible. Who knows what the Republican's plan would've been in that case. But, of course, Biden said right out in public during the debates that Obama was not ready to be President, and then said flat-out that Hillary might've been a better pick for VP...and surprisingly people haven't made a big deal out of either comment.

And coupled with the miscellaneous baggage she was trailing I'm thinking Obama/Clinton would be really be struggling right now.

Plus, they weren't that good a fit. Both had similar weaknesses and strengths. Biden brought more legislative experience, a more detailed knowledge of Iraq and less personal drama.

Policy-wise, I think they're obviously a good fit. They may have created a lot of anger towards each other at the end of the primary though. Your description of Biden's strengths is pretty dead-on...plus, it's unfortunate to have to say it, but he might make "white male" voters more comfortable.

 

[Radrook]

The end of te war in Iraq would only serve to shift the war elsewhere and there would be no permanent financial gain. In short, they would find other ways to spend the same amount militarily. Reminds me of what happened when the USA began pulling troops out of Europe because tyhe Cold War had ceased. Much was said about economic benefits but the only thing that really happened was military personnel and troop redeployment.

 

[Whiplash]

The fact so many think that Hillary would be ahead only confirms for me how lost so many people are on these forums. I saw the poll, and figured the winning vote would be dead heat, or McCain slightly ahead. I vote, and then wammo, mass numbers who still think the Democrat ticket would be ahead. Unreal. Absolutely unreal.

 

[GreyICE]

The fact so many think that Hillary would be ahead only confirms for me how lost so many people are on these forums. I saw the poll, and figured the winning vote would be dead heat, or McCain slightly ahead. I vote, and then wammo, mass numbers who still think the Democrat ticket would be ahead. Unreal. Absolutely unreal.

Look everyone. Whiplash is outraged.

 

[chipmunk stew]

The fact so many think that Hillary would be ahead only confirms for me how lost so many people are on these forums. I saw the poll, and figured the winning vote would be dead heat, or McCain slightly ahead. I vote, and then wammo, mass numbers who still think the Democrat ticket would be ahead. Unreal. Absolutely unreal.

Clinton. Economy.

I think you have a very poor sense of the dynamics in this country.

 

[timhau]

True, Hillary has some baggage, but consider that over the past few years, she's been able to handle it. The fact that she actually managed to win her Senate seat, (and did so with remarkably little help from Bill)

...in New York, with her name recognition, against second-rate opposition.