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Psychic Samurai applies for MDC...apparently...

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If one assumes that the 'entity' can be persuaded to cooperate and also has the ability to penetrate a faraday cage to record its voice is it too great a leap to assume it could penetrate an envelope and read a hidden message?

TP - this could greatly simplify your protocol, speed up your application, and reduce expenses.

Envelopes are considered extremely suspect by any Magician with much experience. I do not wish to expose magic secrets, but envelopes are not secure in the slightest.
I do appreciate your thoughts about the faraday cage.
Thanks
Dave
:cool::cool:
 
Envelopes are considered extremely suspect by any Magician with much experience. I do not wish to expose magic secrets, but envelopes are not secure in the slightest.

Caveat: I'm not a magician. But I suspect that this isn't necessarily the case. It's not the envelope -- it's what you do with the envelope, and under whose control it comes during the demonstration. I am willing to bet a case of [insert your favorite beverage here] that there is no magic trick involving envelopes that can't be defeated by a proper control of some kind or another. Envelopes have been proposed many a time for the MDC (see the previous challenge applications) and they are not a problem as long as the proper controls are in place. Randi is an extremely experienced magician, so you don't need to imply that he's not.

If, for example, I use my 10-siders to roll 10 numbers between 01-00, write those down on a piece of paper, post the hash of those numbers here, and store that piece of paper in a secret location where I am, I can confidently say that there is very little chance of you figuring out those numbers by means of a trick. You'd have to subvert someone with access to the location in which I store the envelope, meaning that you'd a) have to know where I store it and b) have to know who else has access to that location. If your "paranormal entities" can tell you what those numbers are, I'd be absolutely amazed. But, of course, it assumes that a) they can see into a sealed, hidden envelope and b) that they can do so remotely (I'm not in Florida).

I'm sure there is a way to prepare a sealed envelope inside a lockbox in such a way as to fit the requirements of the Challenge, and if this is a possibility, you should pursue it. You, as a magician, know how best to pull off a trick, and so how to defeat such tricks, and (without revealing the particulars of a trick) can propose controls.

Would using material hidden in an envelope be a possibility for your demonstration? That is, do you now know that the "paranormal entities" can see into a sealed, hidden envelope? If they could, boy, would that make things simpler. I know that this has been proposed before, but you stated that you didn't know if the "entities" could. Has something changed, or have we gotten off track again?
 
Show me where the JREF is offering to pay volunteers from the prize account when you don't win.

You gotta get bright" ... :)
The JREF's Salary is a direct result of the MDC and the publicity it brings.
:cool::cool:
But I agree with Jackalgirl and I will not chase rabbits anymore.
I am here to work on the Protocol.

For those of you who have been "Snarky" towards me, the answer is YES, you have played right into my hands as JG has suggested. Even after her warning I predict you will STILL be unable to control yourselves. You are members of this organization for the wrong reasons.

Why not envelopes?

Envelopes would be the PERFECT thing to use If I were NOT going to take the test or try to screw around until everything failed.
That way I could do public demonstrations using many devious methods showing what I COULD HAVE DONE using simple envelopes.
It makes too much sense to use envelopes since I will continue in my quest as a mentalist (Using Envelopes) no matter what happens with the test.
See what I'm saying?
Envelopes would also play into my hands in the long run.
:cool::cool:
 
Envelopes are considered extremely suspect by any Magician with much experience. I do not wish to expose magic secrets, but envelopes are not secure in the slightest.
I do appreciate your thoughts about the faraday cage.
Thanks
Dave
:cool::cool:

I guess you aren't going to actually put forth any effort at all on a protocol? A claim was handed to you on a silver platter, not by any team of writers hired by you, but by the people here. We want to see you tested.

It's your claim. Stop starting new threads and concentrate on this one, the one about your protocol. I posted a proposed protocol back on page 25. There have been suggestions made about it. Please direct your comments to that. Otherwise, I'm guessing it will take longer than a year to finally get a protocol.

Here it is again, with a few changes:

The major changes - use two digital recorders. David K will invoke the voice to appear on only one of the recorders and not the other.

1. Items required: One two digital tape recorder(s) (insert spec here) with batteries, one faraday cage (insert spec here), black and orange Magic Markers, audio/video equipment as requested by JREF to record the test.
2. Location & time - Devil's Chair, October 31, (insert year here) at midnight (Halloween)
3. The tape recorder(s) and blank tape will be newly purchased by the testing entity as near to the date of the test as convenient with funds provided by David Koenig.
4. David Koenig will not have access to any of the items prior to testing.
5. Davic Koenig will sit in Devil's Chair at 11:55 pm where he will remain for the duration of the test.
6. The tester will open both the tape recorder(s) from it's the original packaging in view of all interested parties, insert the batteries, mark one machine with a black 'X' and the other machine with an orange 'X', and set it them aside. The tester will open the new tape from it's original packaging in view of all interested parties and put it in the tape recorder.
7. The tester will switch the tape recorder(s) to record and say the following into the mic, "Time flies like an arrow.". The tester will rewind the tape machines and play back the recorded words to ensure that the equipment is functioning. The machine(s) will be stopped at the end of the tester's recorded words and left at that point on the tape recording.
8. The faraday cage will be examined by the tester to ensure that it is empty. The faraday cage will be placed on the ground, 10 feet +- six inches in front of Devil's Chair, in view of David Koenig.
9. The tester will place the tape recorder in the faraday cage and switch it to record.
10. The tester will close the faraday cage and step away. In close proximity to the faraday cage, the tester will say, "Please dont' make me involuntarily urinate." The tester will then step away. The tester will remain at least 10 feet from Devil's chair and the faraday cage.
11. David Koenig will speak an invocation of his choosing at will throughout the test.
12. At 12:30 am on November 1, (insert year here), the test will be stopped. The tester will open the faraday cage, remove the tape recorder, and say the words, "Fruit flies like a banana.", and then stop the recording.
13. The tape will be removed from the machine and a preventive measure applied to ensure that it isn't recorded over.
14. The tape and machine(s) will be brought to an enclosed room convenient to the testing location, along with all interested parties.
15. The tape machine(s) will be rewound and played back using the same machine it was recorded on.
16. Ten persons, not present at the test proper, will listen to the recording and independently write down sentences that are heard on the machine marked with an orange 'X'. They will then listen to the machine marked with a black 'X'..
17. Eight of the 10 listeners must hear corroborating sentences for the test to be successful.
18. Note that sentences heard must be other than the control sentences or David Koenig's voice and must only be heard on the machine marked with an orange 'X'.
 
The JREF's Salary is a direct result of the MDC and the publicity it brings.
Will you admit that, unlike you, the JREF is not offering volunteers any money?
Will you withdraw your offer to openly bribe(and that is exactly what you are offering to do-openly bribe) volunteers with cash if the test goes in your favor?
If not, will you explain how you will pay these volunteers if you actually pass the preliminary test, seeing as how there is no monetary prize for winning said preliminary test?
 
Envelopes would be the PERFECT thing to use If I were NOT going to take the test or try to screw around until everything failed.
That way I could do public demonstrations using many devious methods showing what I COULD HAVE DONE using simple envelopes.
It makes too much sense to use envelopes since I will continue in my quest as a mentalist (Using Envelopes) no matter what happens with the test.
See what I'm saying?
Envelopes would also play into my hands in the long run.
:cool::cool:
If envelopes were used, you would never be allowed anywhere near the envelopes, not when sealing them, not when storing them, and not when opening them. If you still think envelopes would be unsafe, you may have found the perfect method to beat the JREF.
 
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The Professor said,
But I agree with Jackalgirl and I will not chase rabbits anymore.
I am here to work on the Protocol.

Excellent! Let Jackal Girl help you with this protocol. In my short time here, she has proven (to me) to be extremely patient and quite fair.


The Professor said,
It makes too much sense to use envelopes since I will continue in my quest as a mentalist (Using Envelopes) no matter what happens with the test.
See what I'm saying?
Envelopes would also play into my hands in the long run.

Are you saying that envelopes would fail because you are able to manipulate them in some way? So, Jackal Girl, what do you propose now? :)
Good luck on your mission.
 
First, allow me to congratulate you on making a paranormal claim! I forsee difficulty in the next step (protocol negotiation):

"I will make voices appear on a previously-blank tape by paranormal means!"
"Alright, now let's discuss how the test is going to be set up"
"I'm going to stick the tape in a tape recorder and turn it on!"

*crickets*

I doubt stated this way even internet radio personalities would be much impressed. I expect that all sorts of discussion could ensue, and I will attempt to anticipate your answers in the interest of time. PLEASE correct me if any of the following would not be your answer, as it could be a potential focus for a simple protocol!

ME: So energy is necessary for the entities to do their work, would batteries sitting on a table next to a tape still sealed in plastic be enough energy?

TP: That's not how it works, *long description*

*long discussion, including tape recorders with no batteries, tape recorders with no microphones, tangental discussions about numerous unidentified people that agree with TP and think JREF should simply save time and just give him $1 million dollars right now, insuations of fraud thrown here and there*

TP: So in the end, the recorder will have to be functioning just as a recorder would, with power running through it, turned on, and fully able to record to a tape from its microphone. What actually makes this feat paranormal is:
A: the recording is made even if no sound is getting picked up by the microphone! Why the machine even has to have a microphone is a very good question for future research, but it does. However, the micrphone certainly isn't picking up sound because *insert tested controls that eliminate the possibility that sound is being picked up by the microphone*
B: Well, the recorder is doing exactly what you'd expect a recorder to do, record sound! It's the source of the sound itself that is actually paranormal. I really ought to change my claim to "I can produce sound of paranormal origin" and then focus on a protocol for that, something that will eliminate all normal means of sound generation.

Choices A and B would have different focuses in how one might rule out normal things, so having a clarification between which of them is your understanding might help from here. Also, in responding to Thabiguy's short (and, as he noted, incomplete) list of normal ways one might project voices from one point to another, you responded:

Now to eliminate these.
How many will be eliminated by Distance?
No one will be near enough to use hidden magnets for one.
The cage will be in the middle of an open field at least 100 or 200 yards from the nearest building or parked car. In plain sight.
Thanks for the help!
Perhaps you also be interested in the $25,000 offer?

You appear quite willing to solicit advice from forum members. Have you yet approached professionals in the audio and EM related fields? If not, why not? Such persons are likely to be a HUGE asset in designing a tight protocol that the JREF will be willing to accept. Since you yourself are not (yet?) an expert on all such technology, it seems a very obvious and important next step.

Now, on to a matter of security (in a protocol sense). In the past you've suggested the JREF may have been less than honest in how it approaches challenges (I believe the suggestion was that Ms. Hunter's test was thwarted by an unseen clothespin). If this is really your belief (or even a concern), you should demand all future protocols require mutually agreed-on neutral third parties do any equipment handling or inspection. In failing to do so, you implicitly agree that you do, in fact, trust the JREF to conduct itself honestly. If you do express such trust (even in the implicit manner I have suggested), then it is ingenuine of you to make any further insinuation of dishonesty.
 
If envelopes were used, you would never be allowed anywhere near the envelopes, not when sealing them, not when storing them, and not when opening them. If you still think envelopes would be unsafe, you may have found the perfect method to beat the JREF.

Ditto. I would add that when the spirits are reading the envelopes(which are in full view) neither the person who loaded them, or the person who will eventually open them would be present. When they are opened (not by you) the event would be filmed and controlled, not to mentioned witnessed, to prevent any possible trickery in any direction. Each enveloped would be sealed in a second envelope, and I suppose could also be placed in a locked box if you are really that worried about it.
 
In 28 pages have we had an explanation of how the voices will be self evidently paranormal?



*tumbleweeds*
 
If I might make a suggestion, Professor:

Next time you go to the Devil's chair, why don't you bring a tape recorder and a video recorder with you? After you contact the entities, see what you can get them to do: answer questions, identify objects, etc. Once you have done this in non-controlled conditions, you can report back to us and we can try to come up with a protocol that will allow confirmation of your results.
 
Envelopes are considered extremely suspect by any Magician with much experience. I do not wish to expose magic secrets, but envelopes are not secure in the slightest.
I do appreciate your thoughts about the faraday cage.
Thanks
Dave
:cool::cool:

My thoughts about the Faraday cage is that this is making your protocol extremely complicated and may be one of the reasons you are having trouble coming up with an actual, testable, protocol.

JREF and yourself can easily come up with controls to prevent any cheating regarding envelopes. Is your only objection to this that you are afraid you will use your knowledge of performance magic to cheat?

Are you planning on coming up with your own protocol or working off one of the several that has been proposed?

As you say you contacted the ghosts of a dead boy and his mother in broad daylight in mid september then why not be more flexible with your own timeline?

The only reason I can see for midnight on halloween is that you intend to contact the Devil himself as that is the only story surrounding the devil's chair. Is this true?

As several others have asked to you intend to do this at midnight Oct 30, midnight Oct 31, or noon Oct 31?
 
For those of you who have been "Snarky" towards me, the answer is YES, you have played right into my hands as JG has suggested.

So you are actually here to prove that the MDC is biased, rigged, and a sham -- you're not actually here to take the test, yes? And you intend to use that for self-promotion -- that's what you're saying?
 
Dave --

Did you find out from the "ghosts" that they can see into sealed envelopes? If not, then further discussions of using envelopes as part of the protocol are pointless, and should be stopped (IMO) until you determined that the "ghosts" actually can. It's fruitless to argue about the merits of envelopes if you don't know that using them would actually work.

Any major problem with RoboTimbo's suggestion for a protocol?
 
I sat on the Devil's Chair this afternoon in the Florida Sunshine. There was much more activity then usual. More noises, more insects, more wind and many more "Voices"......
There is One Thing that remains almost always the same .... NO PEOPLE!
Did you take any recording equipement?

This would have been a perfect opportunity for you to test that these "voices" are in fact recordable - something that, to date, you were not sure of and a rather important part of determining whether a protocol for recording such "voices" is viable.
 
One possibility. Ideally, though, you want a double blind test.

Too bad the "applicant" can't seem to come up with something simple like this.

I apologize if something similar has already been suggested. My post was moved from a different thread so I have no idea what's already been suggested. (And no time to read through over 1000 posts either. :) )

To clarify my idea, the volunteer who selects the item and seals it in the box would not be present at the MDC. As nobody present would know what's inside, it would be double-blind. The applicant would not be allowed to make contact with the box. Instead, it would placed close enough to The Devil's Chair to be in reach of any "paranormal entity" that happens to show up. All the applicant has to do is ask the entity what's inside and relay the answer he recorded to the JREF volunteers who would then open the box to see if he was right.
 
As you say you contacted the ghosts of a dead boy and his mother in broad daylight in mid september then why not be more flexible with your own timeline?


I don't think The Professor is claiming that anything paranormal took place on his most recent visit to The Devil's Chair. The story of the boy and his mother more likely came from reading the headstones. And "voices" in quotes could mean many different things -- most notably, the emotions and recollections that visiting a special place, a familiar place, a place one has developed an appreciation for and yet is unnoticed by most people and abandoned most of the time, can evoke.

Historical places I've visited, especially ones rarely visited by the public, where events of significant import but that are little remembered or appreciated occurred, certainly "speak" to me that way. Especially ones I've returned to repeatedly, and had a chance to learn their details. The voices in which such places speak to me, like the voices with which mountains speak to mountaineers and flea markets speak to bargain hunters, are not the kind you can play back from a recording. It's a metaphor for subtle perceptions and evoked emotions. The decibel level of the voices of departed souls is as meaningless as the weight of a meme.

The Professor, it's obvious that most people here think that you are either attempting to gain publicity by means of a challenge claim you never intend to carry out, or planning to carry out the challenge in order to attempt to win the prize by trickery. They may be right; I certainly can't prove them wrong; but I'm willing to entertain the possibility that your claim is sincere. That you've had experiences that you truly believe are paranormal. You wouldn't be the first magician to start out with an interest in the craft of mentalism and get drawn into curiosity about some version of "the real thing" -- parapsychology, spiritualism, occultism, Wicca, or judging from your Invocation script, the usual roll-your-own hybrid. (Your Invocation has a homespun genuineness to it that is the opposite of showmanship. I think you must believe in it because otherwise you would be too embarrassed to recite it, or even post the text.)

If you've had such experiences, it's understandable that you'd see them as evidence of the paranormal and therefore a way to win the MDC. If indeed you can offer such evidence, it would be well worth the JREF's million.

But here's the problem. Experiences of paranormal phenomena are not necessarily paranormal phenomena, any more than dreams of elephants must be elephants. (This was, I believe, first pointed out by Susan Blackmore in her classic essay "The Elusive Open Mind." She observed that it makes no sense to call an "out of body experience" anything other than real, as an experience. That is, it really is an experience that people really have. The real question, she further observed, is whether anything actually leaves the experiencer's body, and based on evidence to date the answer must be no.)

Having an experience, though, cannot win the MDC. Even if you could somehow cause everyone else present to also have the same experience, that would still not be sufficient. Subjective experiences of paranormal phenomena are well known to exist, and are not even particularly rare. Everyone dreams. Many hallucinate. Dr. Michael Persinger claims to be able to cause people to feel a strong sense of the presence of an etherial "entity" by electromagnetically stimulating their temporal lobes.

That's why one of the rules of the MDC is that the results cannot involve subjective judgment or interpretation. You must demonstrate an unambiguous objective paranormal effect. Not an experience. Not, as the more cynical (or less gullible) members here call it, a show.

Voices on tape could constitute such a demonstration, if and only if proper controls are in place. Therefore, I urge you to make your best efforts to negotiate the protocol in good faith. Please understand that it is equally critical to rule out all possible trickery whether you are sincere or not, and whether others believe you're sincere or not.

At the same time, I also urge you to ask yourself these questions, with as open a mind as possible:

Have you considered the possibility that the voices, and other paranormal phenomena including the presence of paranormal entities, that you have experienced at The Devil's Chair, were your imagination?

Has anyone else ever accompanied you and heard the same voices you did?

Have you ever attempted to record the voices?

Do you really think the voices you experience at The Devil's Chair can be recorded?

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
If envelopes were used, you would never be allowed anywhere near the envelopes, not when sealing them, not when storing them, and not when opening them. If you still think envelopes would be unsafe, you may have found the perfect method to beat the JREF.

What's to stop the JREF from gaffing the envelopes?
What's good for the Goose is Good for the Gander.
:cool::cool:
 
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