Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Mashuna]

Why are you having such a hard time with the literary concept of a flawed hero? It is a common device used by writers. It makes stories more believable, more interesting, and more relatable.

Although I've never been a big fan of the Deus ex Machina endings.

 

[Ladewig]

Well for one, very few people could read. I doubt there was any daily newspapers. Paper wasn't even invented yet. Does it really make sense to carry around heavy rolls of expensive papyrus to write down things most people can't read anyway. The High Priests of the day hated Jesus so why would they want to waste valuable papyrus on him. Also I don't think the Romans would take kindly to writing about and promoting Jesus.

Stuff and nonsense! If we are to believe Matthew 27:52-53...

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

... we are left to wonder why one of the greater record-keeping societies of the ancient world didn't put down a single line about dead people coming back to life and walking through a large city. We are also left to wonder why none of the other Gospel writers felt the need to record the dead leaving their tombs and appearing unto many.

This thread is very poorly titled: you have provided no evidence at all.

 

[paximperium]

... we are left to wonder why one of the greater record-keeping societies of the ancient world didn't put down a single line about dead people coming back to life and walking through a large city. We are also left to wonder why none of the other Gospel writers felt the need to record the dead leaving their tombs and appearing unto many.

Are you forgetting the "Dawn of the Dead According the Bob" 3:23: And they rose from the graves and Jesus led them. Bob came forth with a shotgun and sayeth, eat buckshot zombie Jesus!!!

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Why are you having such a hard time with the literary concept of a flawed hero?

Maybe he's a fan of Ayn Rand?

 

[wmadoss]

If you're serious about finding answers about the bible then I would recommend reading some of apologist Norman Geisler's 62 books, especially starting with the one I mentioned in post #1.

Hmm couldnt I just read the bible?

Or do I really have to read 62 books of another persons opinions and interpretations of it....?

 

[Bikewer]

Wmadoss: You could "just read the bible"....IF you had any confidence in that document as a collection of historically accurate stories.
Unfortunately, as we have been trying to show through this thread, no such confidence exists.

 

[wmadoss]

Wmadoss: You could "just read the bible"....IF you had any confidence in that document as a collection of historically accurate stories.
Unfortunately, as we have been trying to show through this thread, no such confidence exists.

For the record I have absolutely no confidence in the bible.

But my point was..

Why cant I read the (the largest collection of Myths) book called the Bible and make up for myself what I think it says and explains.
Why do I need to read a bunch of other books with interpretations and opinions of how the Bible should be interpreted.

These books (unfortunately) will continue to come with new interpretations of the bible so it suits (and defends the bibles myths) whatever will happen in the world in the future...

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I cannot help it if you've bought into the IPU's conspiracy to ignore the years of i-100i that took place between the switch from BC to AD.

We do NOT ignore those years!

We refer to them as the Invisible Pink Century.

 

[paximperium]

For the record I have absolutely no confidence in the bible.

But my point was..

Why cant I read the (the largest collection of Myths) book called the Bible and make up for myself what I think it says and explains.
Why do I need to read a bunch of other books with interpretations and opinions of how the Bible should be interpreted.

These books (unfortunately) will continue to come with new interpretations of the bible so it suits (and defends the bibles myths) whatever will happen in the world in the future...

Come on, you have to read all those apologetics otherwise your brain will pick up all those contradictions, immorality and falsehoods in that book of myth. Don't think, just believe what someone else states.

 

[Dubious Dick]

Seems to me Doc is either a wind up merchant, or serious. Either way it is quite amazing to me how much intellectual energy is expended trying to knock him down. As others have said, of course none of what he quotes is evidence in an way whatsoever. Wouldn't it be better to ignore such eejits?

Is it possible that there are religious woo woo agent provocateurs out there deliberately trying to tie us up in knots? Seems they might be succeeding!

 

[wmadoss]

Come on, you have to read all those apologetics otherwise your brain will pick up all those contradictions, immorality and falsehoods in that book of myth. Don't think, just believe what someone else states.

Ahh so thats the way it works

Jokes aside what you said is unfortunately true for many people.

Is it possible that there are religious woo woo agent provocateurs out there deliberately trying to tie us up in knots? Seems they might be succeeding!

Probably, and the reason for that might be that "we" cant accept or let BS pass as easily as "they" can.


ETA. Added second quote.

 

[Dubious Dick]

WMADOSS - Given that 'we' know it is BS, wouldn't ignoring them after a few people have effectively demolished them be better? Then 'we' can go after more important targets. I only ask because I keep seeing all this energy and time spent opposing a few provocateur posters.

Elsewhere I have suggested the time/energy might be better spent attacking media outlets that help to perpetuate woo woo? Obviously everyone is free to spend their time as they wish, and I frequently pick up some useful points from the forums.

Just that after a while nothing new gets added, and the forums become unwieldy. I admire the tenacity of those who frequently take the eejits on. Just that if we want to win there may be better targets.

 

[Hokulele]

And some of us are in this for entertainment, rather than "winning", whatever that may mean.

Skepticism doesn't always have to take itself so seriously.

 

[wmadoss]

WMADOSS - Given that 'we' know it is BS, wouldn't ignoring them after a few people have effectively demolished them be better? Then 'we' can go after more important targets. I only ask because I keep seeing all this energy and time spent opposing a few provocateur posters.
.

Absolutely.

Thats why I now seldom engage in stupid discussions which we never will "win".

But sometimes I do engage but merely with oneliners and sometimes som mockery but proving or asking them questions never seem to work.

No matter how many times they loose a discussion or are proven wrong thew will change and will always have the argument ..well God made it that way.

I dont know if you have read some debates (can be find under Formal Debates in the forum section) on richarddawkins forums.

I went thorugh the Noas Flood debate today it took almost 2 hours reading it.
And not surprisingly the creationist there didnt come up with one single empirical evidence (which he stated in the beginning he would)..
Ofcourse there are no evidence so it wasnt such a surprise.

It was however very interesting reading so if you are interested do read it.

 

[kmortis]

And some of us are in this for entertainment, rather than "winning", whatever that may mean.

Skepticism doesn't always have to take itself so seriously.

Take that back! I'm ALWAYS serious.

 

[FireGarden]

And also you're implying that making Peter, who the writers knew was the leader of the early Church, a coward (who denied Christ to a lone woman 3 times) made sense. I would have to disagree. It doesn't make sense to make your leader into a Christ denying coward.

Peter Parker (with super-spider strength) let a common thief run by him. That thief then killed Parker's uncle. Why put that in a story? Why can't the hero be a hero from the beginning?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man#Fictional_character_biography

Also Christ seriously rebuked Peter, and once said to Peter, Get behind me Satan. That also doesn't make sense to me if your making the story up especially when you know Peter was the leader of the Church.

Aunt May doesn't like Spiderman. (In some of the stories, at least -- the TRUE stories!). She doesn't know he's her nephew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunt_May

 

[six7s]

Is it really necessary to put any effort into portraying them as inferior when you have Christ raising the dead, healing the sick, giving amazing sermons etc

Maybe not...

However... we do NOT have Christ raising the dead, healing the sick, giving amazing sermons etc... all we have is stories of Christ raising the dead, healing the sick, giving amazing sermons etc

Note the subtle difference

 

[rwp]

I will share a story with you.

Reason #1

The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details About Themselves.

For example some passages portray the disciples as dim-witted, uncaring, and cowards.

I woke up one day, put my coat on and went to school. When I got there it turns out that I went to school in my pajamas. Oops! But I was relieved when the teacher had mercy on me and told me to go home and change.

Reason #2

The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details and Difficult Sayings of Jesus.

For example in one passage someone call Jesus a drunkard, and in another He was called demon-possessed, another a deceiver.

Sometimes my teacher does not treat everyone kindly, so I was glad when he forgave me. I've seen him scream at students and worse - sometimes he comes in and we think he might be hungover or freshly drunk. Maybe he's just tired - we can't prove it. But since the things he teaches about ring true, we put up with it.

Reason #3

The NT Writers Left in Very Demanding Sayings of Jesus.

For example: (Matthew 5:28) "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".

And (Matt. 5:44-45) "I tell you Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you...

As the book says "They certainly didn't make up a story that made life easier for themselves."

We put up with it, even when he is very demanding. It makes life harder for us but I think in the end it will be worth it when we succeed.

Reason #9

The New Testament Writers Describe Miracles Like Other Historical Events: With Simple, Unembellished Accounts.

If they made them up it would be likely that they would have used grandiose and extravagant images. The book says the gospels talk about the Resurrection in a matter of fact almost bland way.

When I got back it was class as usual. In science class, teacher showed us how we could defy the force of gravity and walk on water. In health class he healed a few more students and talked about the heart.

Reason #10

The New Testament Writers Abandoned Their Long Held Sacred Beliefs and Practices, Adopted New Ones, And Did Not Deny Their Testimony Under Persecution Or Threat Of Death

I used to think that healing others the way teacher does was nonsense, but now I believe!! Teacher was eventually found by the authorities as a drunkard. Even after he was arrested and persecuted I testified to all he did for us. He was a great guy and he saved my life. I'm going to talk about him and spread the good news forever.

THE END

Using your arguments we can prove that my entire story is true.

 

[Galileo]

In the "Do Most Atheists know that Science..." thread I mentioned Norman Geisler and Frank Turek's book called "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" a few times because of its clear explanations of scientific theories. But, yes, they did talk about more than science.

In chapter 11 of their book they give the top 10 reasons we know the New Testament writers told the truth. I'll mention some of those reasons and maybe expound on them as time permits.

Reason #1

The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details About Themselves.

For example some passages portray the disciples as dim-witted, uncaring, and cowards.

Reason #2

The New Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details and Difficult Sayings of Jesus.

For example in one passage someone call Jesus a drunkard, and in another He was called demon-possessed, another a deceiver.

Reason #3

The NT Writers Left in Very Demanding Sayings of Jesus.

For example: (Matthew 5:28) "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".

And (Matt. 5:44-45) "I tell you Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you...

As the book says "They certainly didn't make up a story that made life easier for themselves."

Reason #9

The New Testament Writers Describe Miracles Like Other Historical Events: With Simple, Unembellished Accounts.

If they made them up it would be likely that they would have used grandiose and extravagant images. The book says the gospels talk about the Resurrection in a matter of fact almost bland way.

Reason #10

The New Testament Writers Abandoned Their Long Held Sacred Beliefs and Practices, Adopted New Ones, And Did Not Deny Their Testimony Under Persecution Or Threat Of Death

The 9/11 Commission uses many of the same arguments to claim their story is true.

 

[DOC]

Hmm couldnt I just read the bible?

Or do I really have to read 62 books of another persons opinions and interpretations of it....?

99% of the people do just read the bible, and that's all they need to obtain spiritual peace and joy from the bible. Geisler's books are written for the 1% who can't get peace that way.