Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[kitakaze]

I only skim your posts now; I didn't bother to click. What is there to indicate how the bear died?

I've noticed you haven't been affording the equal attention you might hope for but that's what often happens when someone is shown the logical fallacies in their arguments. Other than close examination of the photos I posted themselves there is also the firsthand description of the remains by the trail runner at the photo site he posted them on.

Killed by poachers is hardly a "natural" way to die. Black bears are killed ny grizzlies, too - an eaten.

Again you are asked to explain the reasoning of the relevance of a "natural" death in regards to finding the body of one of these massive mammals you tell us may inhabit virtually all marketable timber in the U.S.. Poaching, hit by a car, flood, lightning strike can make a Bigfoot just as dead as old age, heart worms, stroke, or cancer.

What's your point? Bears get shot and die in accidents and are sometimes found and photographed? Yes, I know.

You know exactly what the point is. A large mammal that you tell us lives across the North American continent should have produced a corpse to be examined and classified by science many times over by now. Anything otherwise is an excercise in apologism for the absurdity that Bigfoot enthusiasts offer us.

You are of course free to continue with the laughable Biscard favourite 'no dead bears' routine, just please don't pretend that it's a factually based argument.

 

[kitakaze]

Dead bear in North Carolina (where Lu lives):



Bears walk by roads, bears get hit. Humans walk by roads, humans get hit. Bigfoots walk by roads, don't get hit.

(Maybe they do get hit but it's always by logging truck drivers who work for logging companies. They aren't interested in Bigfoots and hate spotted owls and there's a system, man. If I tell myself this enough I may retain plausible deniability of the absurdity of my Bigfoot beliefs.)

 

[tyr_13]

Ohhh, now I feel stupid. Yeah, denial is a perfectly reasonable explanation.

Sorry, LT, I didn't even think of that.

 

[Óðinn]

you would be correct

it wasnt a remark to Tyr 13 but to the question he posed.

I am often astonished by those hoping and wanting "science" to acknowledge them using evidence that borders on "heresy" to make their point.

I have made my opinion of BF "science" and the "experts" in the field quite clear here and on the BFF.

Curious. If you are 90% convinced these animals exist then what is your explanation why a body has not been found?

 

[LTC8K6]

If anecdotes are going to be used as evidence of bigfoot's existence, then can we say that the vast majority of people have not seen bigfoot, and use that as evidence?

After all, we are not talking about a creature with corroborating evidence, such as when someone claims to have seen a bear. We know there are bears through good physical evidence, so those few who claim they saw a bear have strong support for the possibility.

The vast majority of people who walk in, live in, hunt in, and work in the wilderness have not seen bigfoot or bigfoot tracks. The stories they tell of their adventures and jobs do not include bigfoot. (This would also be true for all people.)

There is no good physical evidence to support the very thin leaven of people who do claim to have seen bigfoot.

IOW, why should claims of bigfoot be treated differently than other claims with no good physical evidence?

 

[kitakaze]

Curious. If you are 90% convinced these animals exist then what is your explanation why a body has not been found?

Forgive the intrusion as this was not addressed to me but...

Curious. Why wouldn't you acknowledge that Longtabber has reflected on and revised his position both here:

Basically yes- that percentage is more a "colloquial" one rather than a quantified one as it reflects personal opinion

Now, if you asked my "Vulcan half" it would be a solid 1% in favor of me believing it to exist and that would be quantifiable.

0 factual proof or reliable non anecdotal evidence to the positive + a statistical extremely low probability given the knowns of other species/ the simple fact that mathmatically its possible and cannot be proven it doesnt exist= a solid 1% probability that it does.

Its hard for me to convince myself to go to bat to defend a factual premise that has a 1% chance of being true.

And here?:

I actually have considered your above scenario and I agree completely. We arent the "jnugles" of the Amazon and the number of people in the woods V the "alleged" number of BF's out there would almost have to have produced something by now and the fact it hasnt is unquestionably ( from a statistical perspective) solidly in the skeptic's corner.

He very specifically reconsidered his former statement, recognized the irrational nature of it, and altered it accordingly.

Every single person who has availed themselves to an irrational belief system must be allowed to confront and renounce that belief system. Also they should not lower themselves to try and address those who would wish to remind those people of their former beliefs as a way to undermine them. We see this from time to time, an example being LAL pulling up a post by Dfoot at BFF years ago when he was a supporter of the PGF before his own investigation led him to change. It's intellectually dishonest and a reflection of the weakness of the position of the person attempting it.

I think, sir, you will find a great many of the members of this forum will freely admit to having formerly prescribed themselves to some sort of woo beliefs, Bigfoot included. There is no shortage of intelligent people who believe in things like Bigfoot, homeopathy, Creationism etc. Being smart doesn't decrease the irrationality of those beliefs in any manner.

Unless I am mistaken, Óðinn, you are a proponent of Bigfoot existence. Considering that, maybe you could offer an explanation why no body has been produced to date?

 

[Aepervius]

LAL, I used to live in France, 70-80 km (50 miles?) north of Paris. There are a lot of woods near there separated by cities and field. I have found bodies of all sort of animals during 20 years I lived and walked tehre. From a lot of all sort of birds, rabits rests, something which might have been a boar or an escaped pig, some deer, many foxes, hedgehod, rats, field mouses, cats, dogs, something which should been an escaped horse, and if you count the experience of a friend of a friend (hey we are in anecdote realm after all) a half decomposed human. Of the previous most of the time only half eaten bones were found, but sometimes half carcasses or full carcasses.

The only reason we did not find bear was that there are none in the region (haha).

So where the heck did you take your "animal corpse are not found" ? Animals corpse are found all the time. Which is why it never makes the news, not even the local news. Of the above the only stuff which warranted half a bier discussion at the village bar, was "whose horse is it, and who pay to remove the corpse ?".

 

[captain koolaid]

Longtabber's posts have consistently been a good read. Always seemed prepared to let the chips fall where they may, regardless of the implications. Refreshingly Keynesian.

 

[tube]

While bungling in the jnugle some time back, I was quick enough with my camera to capture these two hairy monsters:

 

[manofthesea]

The vast majority of people who walk in, live in, hunt in, and work in the wilderness have not seen bigfoot or bigfoot tracks. The stories they tell of their adventures and jobs do not include bigfoot. (This would also be true for all people.)

The above means nothing at all. How can you claim this as reasoning?
There's a Yellowstone show on Travel Channel, watch it. It shows a park ranger stating that he worked his whole life (over 20 years) there and never saw a cougar. Yet he knows they are there.

 

[manofthesea]

As I have shown by your own description of the story, WP's summation of it can not be fairly described as a "trammeling of the truth."

It was a lie. He knew it unless he's somewhat mentally deficient. You know what that makes him.

 

[kitakaze]

It was a lie. He knew it unless he's somewhat mentally deficient. You know what that makes him.

The difference is trivial at best. Again, you never specified when the roaring ceased yet alluded to more than one:

The howl/yell had a duration of about 10 seconds per burst

Saying that a person who recalled continuous roaring based on seeing the above description a long time prior is either a liar or mentally deficient is a petty insult born from the frustration of people observing the ridiculous nature of your Bigfoot tale.

20-30 various animals fleeing, forest destruction, jet plane roaring... Real Bigfoot terror chase? Ludicrous. Too many cartoons and an active imagination? Far more likely.

If Bigfoot was real and behaved the way you imagined then we'd have far more corpses from shot dead Bigfoots than we'd know what to do with. The only deficiency is with your failure to understand such an obviously simple point.

 

[Mad Hom]

Again you are asked to explain the reasoning of the relevance of a "natural" death in regards to finding the body of one of these massive mammals you tell us may inhabit virtually all marketable timber in the U.S.. Poaching, hit by a car, flood, lightning strike can make a Bigfoot just as dead as old age, heart worms, stroke, or cancer.

You know exactly what the point is. A large mammal that you tell us lives across the North American continent should have produced a corpse to be examined and classified by science many times over by now. Anything otherwise is an excercise in apologism for the absurdity that Bigfoot enthusiasts offer us.

Exactly,why on earth should cause of death have any bearing whatsoever on why no one in all of the North American hinterlands has stumbled onto the remains (bones,gutpile or otherwise) of a Hairy Biped of Unusual Size??

I'll tell you why....because Hairy Bipeds of Unusal Size exist only in the sugarplum dreams of the Bigfoot Nation and it's various subsidiary woo communities....and not in a little place the rest of us like to call....

...the real world.

 

[kitakaze]

Think of this, Madness; if we were to imagine Longtabber really did encounter Bigfoot twice (mind you, it's not really fair to use that example as he recognized the inherit flaws there), once on the South Carolina coast as a youth and again on a military training excercise,...

...and that another member bf2006 also twice encountered Bigfoot in two separate southern states, once from his balcony and once a giant white one at the side of the highway in front of a residence outside a wooded area...

Or that member darkwing has been up close to Bigfoots many times and has even seen a group of them crossing a field before his very eyes...


Or that member MOTS has twice encountered Bigfoot, once where the beast caused a menagerie of wildlife to collectively flee before it while it tore a swathe of destruction in its rage of pursuit; and again with his father and brother where MOTS picked off the beast with a lobbed stick...

...and these are just four members of the JREF off the top of my head. That's four, count them, four members who have had multiple encounters with these massive man-like beasts literally from coast to coast of the North American continent. Sweet fancy Moses!! That just boggles the mind! And yet wait... Even more world unravelling, mind altering is that though these have been blessed with the great luck to have encounters that Bigfoot researchers like Krantz and Dahinden have gone to their graves without after a lifetime of research... we have been unable, simply S.O.L., shut down, denied the aquisition and classification of a specimen or even the most rudimentary reliable evidence of this species which populates the continent and so brazenly invades our world.

My mind is blown! No, no, no... I refuse it. This reduces me to a dribbling, simpering vegetable and I won't allow it. Clearly we are going to have to remedy this absurd affront to the most simple common sense. No, no... somebody's going to have to take a hit for the team. If the legitimacy quest for Bigfootery is going to have any traction at the very least I think half of these individuals should scale back there claims. Drop an encounter or two. Scale down to some Class B's - a wood-knocking or pinecone chucking incident.

I think since Longtabber's been big enough to embrace reality we can automatically disqualify him and then MOTS, darkwing, and bf2006 can have a freestyle Bigfoot tale tell-off battle. Points will be given based on the teller's ability to maintain a reasonable suspension of disbelief. The first and second place winners will be allowed to retain their Bigfoot claims while the third place individual will drop their sub-par claims. Thus nobody's head will implode from the absurd insult to reality and rational thinking that these individuals collectively represented.

So are you guys ready to represent or what?

 

[desertgal]

So where the heck did you take your "animal corpse are not found" ? Animals corpse are found all the time. Which is why it never makes the news, not even the local news. Of the above the only stuff which warranted half a bier discussion at the village bar, was "whose horse is it, and who pay to remove the corpse ?".

By Lu's own admission, she herself has come across the remains of animals in the woods more than once. That rather contradicts her statement that animal corpses are rarely found.

 

[EHocking]

The above means nothing at all. How can you claim this as reasoning?
There's a Yellowstone show on Travel Channel, watch it. It shows a park ranger stating that he worked his whole life (over 20 years) there and never saw a cougar. Yet he knows they are there.

So? I met a park ranger in Zimbabwe's Hwange NP who said, when asked, that in 15 years had never seen a Roan Antelope.

We (I) spotted 3 that day.

Of course, the difference is that there are verifiable records of these animals existing in the parks in question.

 

[LAL]

It was Roger Knights that talked about the "Laverty Date Error" on BFF. The error was exposed when Meldrum interviewed Laverty. Then it appeared in Perez's "Bigfoot Times". Then RK posted it on BFF over a year ago. We've also discussed it here. That's why you should have known it. Old stuff now. It's curious that this bold error existed for so long. It's as if the Pattycakes didn't care about confirming facts, and Laverty never really cared about what the Pattycakes had been saying. BFF thread with the info.

Yes, I missed that little thread in 2005, probably because I was embroiled here. Over a year ago I left BFF. In case you didn't notice, I wasn't here either. So just why should I have known it again? Of course it was a "Pattycakes" who found the error, but never mind that.

I don't think Roger Knights will mind if I quote him:

"He stated in response to one of the follow-up questions that he and his crew had gone up and down Bluff Creek regularly that summer. (IOW, if the tracks had been laid down weeks before the filming, as BH alleged, it's unlikely they'd have been missed multiple times.)"

I like the way Roger the pseudo-intellectual wannabe actually checks things out while you guys are doing what exactly?

Since they were in the area and went looking in response to the news it needent have been on a workday. It's not that important, except to people who are trying to find anything they can to show this was a complicated hoax.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Curious. If you are 90% convinced these animals exist then what is your explanation why a body has not been found?

First, I didnt change or modify my "beliefs" but rather explained both sides of my thought process.

In more times than I can count, be it when an active investigator on a case or now when conducting a FMECA/RCFA on a machine or process, I have often formed an immediate OPINION of a given situation based on what things LOOKED LIKE or "appeared" to be that later proved to be unfounded when evidence was analyzed.

The trick is to not let your opinion convolute the facts ( or twist/cherry pick the facts to fit the opinion) but let the facts fine tune the opinion.

For example- in either of mine, there is enough CIRCUMSTANTIAL "evidence" to get a true bill from a Grand Jury or to even make an arrest but a far cry from being enough to win a conviction. ( except in Durham NC where the multiple stories of a drunk stripper are "true" and all facts to the contrary are false)

So, to answer your question

My human half would say simply random chance hasnt "spiked" that one fateful time yet. ( fully realizing that with the population level, number of roads/vehicles,hunters, people in various fields in the outdoors over several hundred years et al- the chances of one NOT being "discovered" by now are around a million to 1 in favor of it NOT being there to be discovered but even so, a million to 1 is a legitimate odd but not one I would bet on)

My Vulcan half would simply say no one has produced one because based on available evidence, they dont factually exist so there is no specimen to collect.

So, take your pick

 

[LAL]

By Lu's own admission, she herself has come across the remains of animals in the woods more than once. That rather contradicts her statement that animal corpses are rarely found.

Again, I was looking for remains of my horses that had died of a disease the year before. I found some of the mare's vertebrae by the skid road where a friend on horseback dragged and left her, her skull in a gully. That's all I could find of a 15 hand horse. The filly's jaw had been towed a quarter mile or so onto talus, i.e. basaltic rocks. That's all I found of her. These were not wild animals. If I hadn't been looking for them I would have missed them. The mare's vertebrae were covered in algae and blended in. If I'd crossed the talus in another place I'd have missed the filly's jawbone.

I saw the deer skeleton by Hwy 14 when I was walking into Stevenson. It wasn't in the woods. It had been hit by a car (I assume). I found one deer jaw on the talus where I found the filly's jaw and two coyotes that had been trapped in a clearing on my land.

In the woods I found 0. I did a lot of mushrooming so I poked under the club moss and got well away from the old skid roads. I climbed over rotting logs and checked around boulders. Nothing. Am I making myself clear enough? I found no animal remains of any kind in the forest.

There's a segment of an MQ show where they show the disintegration of a deer in a week, and that was without the scavengers.

 

[LAL]

LAL, I used to live in France, 70-80 km (50 miles?) north of Paris.

And I lived in a county that only has two traffic lights (there were none then). There were cougars, bear, coyote, eagles, vultures..........all these animals scavenge. The large scavengers do their work, then the little ones down to the microbes finish the job.

In a more or less natural ecosystem, bodies don't last long, and in the deep woods where people don't go there's no one around to find them.