Veganism: I honestly don't understand it

[RandFan]

I greatly respect that, by the way. Just to let you know.

And I agree with that, as well. But it's hard to prepare for unintended consequences. Oh, it's possible to avoid some obvious ones, but the subtle ones can be almost impossible to avoid with the utmost caution taken.

And this I also respect.

Thanks, I think the best way to avoid unintended consequences is to be skeptical of conventional wisdom. There's nothing wrong with asking questions so long as we don't stubbornly cling to ideas that are potentially harmful and science says are wrong (GW skepticism for example).

Thanks Lonewulf.

 

[RandFan]

I hear ya. I'm not one of those "Meat is Murder!" folks. I've never advocated a meat-free diet for the world. But, I know a lot of meat eaters intentionally bury their heads in the sand WRT the negative impacts of meat farming. That bugs me.

I don't care if someone else chooses to eat Kobe beef. I do care if they refuse to understand the impact of their choice. When too many refuse to think beyond their own taste buds and stomach we run into trouble.

Agreed.

BTW, I advocate that everyone see a cow slaughtered at least once in his or her lifetime. I think it would be best done live but TV or the Internet would be ok. I'm not talking about something that is forced just that I think it wrong to simply accept what we consume without knowing the consequences of that choice.

I've seen cows slaughtered. I've got to tell ya, it's a hell of a thing.

 

[Lonewulf]

Agreed.

BTW, I advocate that everyone see a cow slaughtered at least once in his or her lifetime. I think it would be best done live but TV or the Internet would be ok. I'm not talking about something that is forced just that I think it wrong to simply accept what we consume without knowing the consequences of that choice.

I've seen cows slaughtered. I've got to tell ya, it's a hell of a thing.

Randfan, I'll never forgive you.

I did some searching on youtube. Out of curiosity, I clicked on a link. this is a youtube video, dealing with the Chinese treatment of dogs and cats. Around 4:00 is something that scarred me.

I know this is something made by PETA, but watching a skinned dog that is actually still alive is something that really scarred me. Not to mention watching one dog being killed by having it's head stomped and pressed down on by a big boot...


I saw some very questionable cattle-killing methods as well in other youtube videos, and this was just a diversion, but man. I just had to look. I wish I didn't.


Has nothing to do with livestock treatment in the U.S., of course. I also don't recommend a viewing of that for people with sick stomachs or any amount of empathy for dogs or cats...


*cough*


Anyways, it's not hard to find some videos of cattle being slaughtered on youtube, although I know that PETA will have a tendency to focus on the bad... and probably show old footage from old methods. So I'm not sure what's a reliable source on seeing the real thing.

 

[Drudgewire]

BTW, I advocate that everyone see a cow slaughtered at least once in his or her lifetime. I think it would be best done live but TV or the Internet would be ok. I'm not talking about something that is forced just that I think it wrong to simply accept what we consume without knowing the consequences of that choice.

Put a chicken on the stump on a farm and helped clean it, shot a deer and helped skin it (when asked if it was my first kill, I answered "hell no." I've never been "blooded"), watched a pig get butchered before we took it to its final resting place on a bbq pit, and witnessed a supposedly dead rabbit skinned and start screaming (and if you've never heard a rabbit scream, it's one of the sounds they blared at Noriega's house when they were trying to force him out), which thankfully had the horror supplanted by gallows humor after a woman buying fruit from the guy damn near left one of those cartoon dust imprints of herself she fled to her car so quickly.

And yeah, still love to eat meat. In a perfect world being that close to the process isn't something I'll never do again, and I didn't get anything resembling pleasure out of it, but my hands have been quite dirty. So what?

Buying meat in a store is like getting an oil change. Sure I COULD do it myself but it's smelly and you get crud all over yourself and need special equipment, and since paying someone to do it for me is convenient as hell why would I go through all the hassle just to prove a point?

 

[Lonewulf]

Buying meat in a store is like getting an oil change. Sure I COULD do it myself but it's smelly and you get crud all over yourself and need special equipment, and since paying someone to do it for me is convenient as hell why would I go through all the hassle just to prove a point?

I think that the point is that some people (notably not you, of course), might not be so callous if they know the actual process behind it.

Then again, for all I know, people here would be quick to defend the treatment of cats and dogs in the video I showed above (the rabbit that was skinned alive certainly comes off as similar to the dog in the video), so I dunno.

I guess it's just not for me.

 

[Drudgewire]

Then again, for all I know, people here would be quick to defend the treatment of cats and dogs in the video I showed above (the live-rabbit that was skinned alive certainly comes off as similar to the dog in the video), so I dunno.

I love my cats to the point there's no doubt in my mind I'd run into a burning building to save them. As such, my position on Asians considering cats a delicacy is "don't take my cats to China."

 

[madurobob]

BTW, I advocate that everyone see a cow slaughtered at least once in his or her lifetime. I think it would be best done live but TV or the Internet would be ok. I'm not talking about something that is forced just that I think it wrong to simply accept what we consume without knowing the consequences of that choice.

I've been verbally beaten up more than once for similar suggestions. Its too easy to regard the meat in the store as just another vegetable with no cognitive connection made to any animal. I think this leads directly to an acceptance of cruel CAFO farming techniques and all the health and environmental harm that goes along with them.

Its not by coincidence that I stopped eating farmed meat about the same time I began hunting.

If you're too squeamish to see the animal slaughtered you need to reconsider your choice of food.

 

[Lonewulf]

I love my cats to the point there's no doubt in my mind I'd run into a burning building to save them. As such, my position on Asians considering cats a delicacy is "don't take my cats to China."

I don't think that it's the fact that they eat cats that bothers me.

It's their overall treatment.

Packed in little boxes, which they then drop from a height of about 10 feet off the top of a delivery truck. Not to mention that they seem to think that beating the animal "adds to the flavor" (that also seems to be believed in Korea as well, although they focus on a certain breed of dog). Then there's the dog that was skinned alive and left alive, I don't know how long he was moving until he finally died.

Ugh. I know this doesn't have anything to do with livestock treatment in the U.S., but I'm honestly shaken up after seeing that; like, literally shaking. I feel like I'm about to vomit. I'm not kidding.

 

[Drudgewire]

If you're too squeamish to see the animal slaughtered you need to reconsider your choice of food.

Why? You've chosen to make your eating decisions based on your ethics. But that doesn't mean anyone else in the world has to approach eating the same way. No one is so dense they don't realize the hamburgers they eat come from the same lumbering farm animals we've all passed in cars. Hell, Chik-Fil-A makes the point that cows want us to eat more chicken, with the obvious point being it means less of them would get slaughtered.

We get it, and to be quite honest most people have no desire to be shocked out of doing something that makes them happy, keeps them sustained, doesn't break any law, and is a billion times tastier than the alternative because of a small minority view that somehow livestock should be treated with the same reverence as humans.

You disagree? Fine. But for most of us, the notion of "rethinking their choice of food" if they're not willing to watch an animal get butchered is the equivilant of saying "if you can't watch a doctor perform open heart surgery, you should rethink having that operation."

 

[Lonewulf]

Why? You've chosen to make your eating decisions based on your ethics. But that doesn't mean anyone else in the world has to approach eating the same way. No one is so dense they don't realize the hamburgers they eat come from the same lumbering farm animals we've all passed in cars. Hell, Chik-Fil-A makes the point that cows want us to eat more chicken, with the obvious point being it means less of them would get slaughtered.

Okay, fair enough.

We get it, and to be quite honest most people have no desire to be shocked out of doing something that makes them happy, keeps them sustained, doesn't break any law, and is a billion times tastier than the alternative because of a small minority view that somehow livestock should be treated with the same reverence as humans.

Somehow, this reminds me of a short story I read, about a utopia that was somehow "powered" by the constant abuse of a child, and how most people were able to say, "Why should I care? I'm happy, I'm content, and I'm much happier than if we were to stop abusing the child".

Of course, children aren't animals, but the idea of morality trumping hedonism isn't a new one, nor particularly controversial.

Also, talking about how "something is legal" doesn't necessarily broadcast that it's necessarily moral. Legal decisions are often based off of moral beliefs, but that does not mean that legality = morality.

Also, seriously? "A billion times tastier"? You mean you've never had a tasty vegetarian dish? All vegetables, fruits, nuts, and anything without even the smallest hint of meat is a billion times less tasty than anything with meat?

Wow. I have such deep, overwhelming pity for you. I hope I never am like you, ever. And hell, I still eat meat.

You disagree? Fine.

Sure. But while we're at it, let's look at why you think we disagree.

because of a small minority view that somehow livestock should be treated with the same reverence as humans.

Somehow, the myth has been spread that the only reason to want to treat animals a certain way is because we "view them as humans".

I'm sure you think of your cats as the same as humans, right? If not, why can't I abuse them or kill them for personal pleasure, outside of your personal ownership?

I've been mocked for viewing myself as "enlightened". Well, if not being enlightened means that the only reason I could ever campaign for a certain thing is because I view it as like a human, I think I'll keep the enlightenment. Unless you honestly think that all the vegans or all of the people campaigning for what you're railing against honestly regard animals as humans. In which case, you haven't been paying attention. But go figure, eh? Most of your posts come off that way, anyways.

Sometimes I wonder if these vegans that regard animals as humans aren't just a giant strawman, because I certainly haven't met many of them myself outside of some articles.

But for most of us, the notion of "rethinking their choice of food" if they're not willing to watch an animal get butchered is the equivilant of saying "if you can't watch a doctor perform open heart surgery, you should rethink having that operation."

Uhhh... there's about a million things wrong with that analogy.

 

[Drudgewire]

Okay, fair enough.

We're good so far.

Somehow, this reminds me of a short story I read, about a utopia that was somehow "powered" by the constant abuse of a child, and how most people were able to say, "Why should I care? I'm happy, I'm content, and I'm much happier than if we were to stop abusing the child".

Of course, children aren't animals, but the idea of morality trumping hedonism isn't a new one, nor particularly controversial.

The key words here:

children aren't animals

Sure. But while we're at it, let's look at why you think we disagree.

Goody!

Somehow, the myth has been spread that the only reason to want to treat animals a certain way is because we "view them as humans".

I'm sure you think of your cats as the same as humans, right? If not, why can't I abuse them or kill them for personal pleasure, outside of your personal ownership?

You couldn't be more wrong. My cats are as precious to me as anytihng, but I'd stomp them to death if I had to get over them in order to save the life of the most miserable human I didn't personally already want to see dead.

I've been mocked for viewing myself as "enlightened". Well, if this is what not being enlightened means, I think I'll keep it.

The mocking isn't because you don't eat meat. It's because by the very nature of the term "enlightened" you're putting yourself on a pedestal over an alternate lifestyle. I don't mock vegans. I mock vegans who feel the need to tell me they're vegans and why they're vegans and how veganism isn't cruel unlike the caveman mentality the rest of us have. I mock racists who never shut up about it. I mock blowhard republicans or blowhard democrats who do the same thing. I mock fundamentalist christians or radical atheists in the exact same tone.

I'd mock ANYONE FOR ANYTHING that makes them think they're better than the rest of us because of, but only once they've pre-judged me for not agreeing with them. It's simply my nature.

Uhhh... there's about a million things wrong with that analogy.

It's a theme in this thread.

 

[Lonewulf]

The key words here:

Sure, which means that we should use animals for any bit of pleasure anytime we want, and never ever question the morality 'cause some people are happy doing it. They aren't human, therefore, nothing else matters. Animals aren't children, so therefore, if it makes us happy, let's do it!

Got it.

You couldn't be more wrong. My cats are as precious to me as anytihng, but I'd stomp them to death if I had to get over them in order to save the life of the most miserable human I didn't personally already want to see dead.

Got it.

So eating something "a billion times more tasty than vegetables" is equivalent to "saving the most miserable human" (BEST LOGIC YET!), and you have no problem with killing animals in brutal ways.

Now I know whether or not I wish to continue conversation with you.

The mocking isn't because you don't eat meat. It's because by the very nature of the term "enlightened" you're putting yourself on a pedestal over an alternate lifestyle.

Oookay.

I don't mock vegans. I mock vegans who feel the need to tell me they're vegans and why they're vegans and how veganism isn't cruel unlike the caveman mentality the rest of us have.

While ignoring the moral arguments, too.

Moral arguments exist for a reason, as does moral philosophy in general. We can't file every moral question under "alternate lifestyle", I wish some people got that.

I mock racists who never shut up about it. I mock blowhard republicans or blowhard democrats who the same thing. I mock fundamentalist christians or radical atheists in the exact same tone.

I'd mock ANYONE FOR ANYTHING that makes them think they're better than the rest of us because of. It's simply my nature.

Sure, but while you're doing it, you're coming off as thinking that you think that you're better than any of the rest of them as well.

I always love the people that go "LOL THOSE STUPID VEGANS!!111 THEY NOT SO GOOD AS US MEAT EATERS!!111 THEY SO ARROGANT LOL DURRRR"

It's a theme in this thread.

Always a good excuse.




I also want to add that moral arguments aren't the only ones that exist in this thread, but don't let that stop you from feeling superior!

 

[Drudgewire]

Again, how you eat is a moral choice to you. Bless you for it.

Decreeing it should be a moral choice for everybody is where you start to veer into "man, he needs a good mocking" territory.

 

[Lonewulf]

Again, how you eat is a moral choice to you. Bless you for it.

Decreeing it should be a moral choice for everybody is where you start to veer into "man, he needs a good mocking" territory.

Okay, this is just what I cannot understand. Really, please, attempt to explain this to me, I really really want to understand, but I'm just too dumb to catch up with you carnivores.


See, let's say that I find stealing is wrong. But you don't. Let's just say for sake of argument that you're a "good" thief, a sort of Robin Hood type thief.

Now, we have an argument, and you get angry because I'm upsetting your "lifestyle". You don't think that thieving is about morality at all, but I do. I make some moral arguments, and say that you should question your actions, but you don't like it, and mock me for it.

Why are you in the right, and me in the wrong?

Of course, I know what you're going to say. You don't view eating meat as the same thing as stealing. But the thing is, the Robin Hood in this example views stealing as a lifestyle choice, and not a morality choice. Who am I to dare suggest it's a moral choice?

Who arbitrates, objectively, what is a moral choice and not? Who is allowed to make moral arguments or not? Who decides, essentially, what can and cannot be criticized?

It seems so far to be, "People that make me uncomfortable about my decisions". Which is pretty darn arbitrary. Please explain some objective way to decide what's a "moral" choice and what's a "lifestyle" choice, and who can and can not discuss it, please. Then tell me what Commandments you're relying on to think this through.




And I further add that your arguments still amount to "if it makes me happy, I can do it" and "I can't do that to humans, but if I get pleasure out of stomping a cat to death, there's nothing wrong with that". Pardon me if I point out that a decent majority of the civilization that you live in would not agree. There's animal abuse laws for a reason.

 

[RandFan]

Why are you in the right, and me in the wrong?

IMO you are not wrong.

 

[Drudgewire]

Eating meat isn't a lifestyle. It's life. It always has been, evolution decreed it, and until very recently (a time that seems to coincide with Disney making fantasy movies about talking animals but I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything) it's never been an issue to anyone. The fact that in the last 50 years or so a few folks have decided they think out of all the problems in the world, lower species not being cared for is among the greatest of them doesn't change that.

I dated a vegan for six months. She actually got me to start buying free-range chicken (although if it hadn't tasted really good it's a concession which would have lasted a day). I think we all have hobbies which would seem like time-wasters to the rest of us, and hers is finding new dietary substitutes to the pork chops I've started and cooked in 40 minutes because she knows in her heart one pig survived another day because of it. Good for her. Who am I to judge?

But for that matter, who are any of us to judge? v

v

 

[Lonewulf]

Eating meat isn't a lifestyle. It's life. It always has been, evolution decreed it, and until very recently

I take it that the "naturalist fallacy" statements don't actually register with you, do they? Not to mention the evidence that, y'know, we don't need meat to live?

Also, what do you think evolution is? A big old man with a beard? Get real.

Show me the Commandments of Evolution, or stop talking for a non-living entity, please. You aren't the mouthspeaker for evolution, and evolution is not an intelligent process. No matter how many times people like you repeat what "evolution" wants us to do or not, this will not change things. Period.

(a time that seems to coincide with Disney making fantasy movies about talking animals but I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything)

Wow.


I'm claimed to be arrogant, and yet I'm being accused of being "brainwashed" by Disney, and not able to think for myself on the issue.

Wow.

Just... wow.

it's never been an issue to anyone.

NEVER? You've never heard of Henry David Thoreau, I guess? The one that noted in one of his many works the ludicrous claim that we need to grind the bones of cows in order to keep our strength, even while the ox was able to do 99% of the farmer's labor while on a diet of vegetables? Henry David Thoreau, famous American author, ring any bells?

Wow.

Just... wow.

Also, have you ever heard of Buddhism? Tip: There's lots of Buddhists that don't eat meat for a reason. Look into it someday.

The fact that in the last 50 years or so a few folks have decided they think out of all the problems in the world, lower species not being cared for is among the greatest of them doesn't change that.

Uh huh.

I dated a vegan for six months.

I'm sure this will evolve into a tale that will heighten my respect for you.

She actually got me to start buying free-range chicken (although if it hadn't tasted really good it's a concession which would have lasted a day). I think we all have hobbies which would seem like time-wasters to the rest of us, and hers is finding new dietary substitutes to the pork chops I've started and cooked in 40 minutes because she knows in her heart one pig survived another day because of it. Good for her. Who am I to judge?

Hmm.

But for that matter, who are any of us to judge? v[qimg]http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/shobon.gif[/qimg]v

You're right. You've just disproven all of moral philosophy altogether. Who cares about morality? Just do whatever the hell you want, and call it a lifestyle.

 

[Drudgewire]

You're right. You've just disproven all of moral philosophy altogether. Who cares about morality? Just do whatever the hell you want, and call it a lifestyle.

Yes, my "fundamentalist christian" analogy couldn't have been more off-base.

 

[Lonewulf]

Yes, my "fundamentalist christian" analogy couldn't have been more off-base.

You sure convinced me!

I notice you ignored all of the other points above. I bet you'll go off and repeat your other, much-debunked claims over and over and over again, while claiming everyone who dares disagrees with you is "brainwashed by Disney".

It's hilarious.

Looks like I'm not the only one that deserves to be mocked here...

 

[Drudgewire]

Sorry I didn't have a brilliant retort to several wow... just wows but then red meat must have dulled my debating skills.