Getting shot of Gordon Brown

richardm

Philosopher
Joined
Aug 6, 2001
Messages
9,248
So.... a minister about to resign in protest at his leadership. Constant sniping from the back benchers. Efforts to use the party conference to start a leadership campaign.

Will they get enough momentum to get him shifted, or will he hang on?

Can they sensibly replace him without coming under huge pressure for a general election as well? Would waiting until the latest possible general election slot make any difference anyway?

I kind of suspect that the general state of the country at the moment would put it in no mood for a bit of internal political fighting, so in the end nothing will come of this. The threat of Cairns resigning (which he appears likely to do shortly) must have been offset by Darling and Milliband popping up to say Gordon's the right chap, surely (especially since hardly anyone appears to have heard of Cairns in the first place).
 
I think it was Newsnight a few weeks ago was saying that the polls indicate that not only is Gordon Brown considered a poor leader, but that the public think that changing leaders is pointless and would make no difference to Labour.

Fingers crossed, we might actually have the Conservatives back in soon!
 
If we do at least the state schools have been rebuilt and repaired and the NHS built up so they may be able to weather a couple of terms of the conservative underfunding better than otherwise would have been the case!
 
It is easy to slag off the leadership. Until someone puts their name forward as willing to stand not much will happen other than a few people trying to distance them selves from Gordon in the hope it will save their seat when the next election comes round.

No serious candidate will want to stand now and lead Labour to their inevitable defeat. They would rather start with a clean sheet having listened to the message of the electorate and free to rebrand the party, Labour Nouvelle perhaps.
 
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No serious candidate will want to stand now and lead Labour to their inevitable defeat. They would rather start with a clean sheet having listened to the message of the electorate and free to rebrand the party, Labour Nouvelle perhaps.

Well, I suppose this is the key problem isn't it: who would want to preside over a landslide defeat?

Because I do think it's probably too late to save the government anyway - people fancy a change. What a pity the Tories have managed to recover so well, though. A few years ago it looked like they might collapse altogether as a political party.
 
I think it was Newsnight a few weeks ago was saying that the polls indicate that not only is Gordon Brown considered a poor leader, but that the public think that changing leaders is pointless and would make no difference to Labour.

Fingers crossed, we might actually have the Conservatives back in soon!

You're kidding? Please tell me you're kidding....

Ok, Major wasn't as bad as all that, but MAGGIE. Remember her? She totally screwed the country, and to make matters worse, Cameron is a slimy little git who has positions so obscured by his ceaseless waffling about nothing in particular he looks like a slightly more right wing version of Blair.

Oh joy, just what we need. Another Blair, or worse, another Tory.
 
If we do at least the state schools have been rebuilt and repaired and the NHS built up so they may be able to weather a couple of terms of the conservative underfunding better than otherwise would have been the case!

"Nice new buildings are attractive to investors - any chance we could privatise the state schools? Pater paid for my education and that worked out jolly well, really. And the NHS doesn't need more money, it just needs a Matron on every ward. That'll do the trick"

Ok, Major wasn't as bad as all that

Well, there was the small issue of British Rail...
 
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"Nice new buildings are attractive to investors - any chance we could privatise the state schools? Pater paid for my education and that worked out jolly well, really. And the NHS doesn't need more money, it just needs a Matron on every ward. That'll do the trick"



Well, there was the small issue of British Rail...

I never said he was Mr Wonderful did I?:p

I just think he was better than Maggie. A step in the right (left?) direction for the Tories. 'Course then we got Blair and the Tories went to the brink of collapse....pity Cameron seems to have steadied the ship.
 
I never said he was Mr Wonderful did I?:p

I just think he was better than Maggie.


....snip....

Which is rather damning with faint praise since that can be said of most of the human population and much of the animal population of the world.


_________________________________

Let me just add that at the moment I could not vote for an another Labour government, I also could not vote for the Conservatives so I am in quite a pickle at the moment.
 
Let me just add that at the moment I could not vote for an another Labour government, I also could not vote for the Conservatives so I am in quite a pickle at the moment.

Well, my Westminster MP will be a Lib Dem again, I should imagine, and he does do a reasonable job so I'll probably vote that way this time. If I still feel the same way when I reach the ballot box it will be the first time I've ever voted non-Labour. I would rather stab the pencil into my right eye than use it to make a cross next to a Conservative MP.

(Doesn't actually have to be my right eye I suppose; there are plenty of right eyes about and there's no sense in wasting a good one)
 
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Well, my Westminster MP will be a Lib Dem again, I should imagine, and he does do a reasonable job so I'll probably vote that way this time. If I still feel the same way when I reach the ballot box it will be the first time I've ever voted non-Labour. I would rather stab the pencil into my right eye than use it to make a cross next to a Conservative MP.

(Doesn't actually have to be my right eye I suppose; there are plenty of right eyes about and there's no sense in wasting a good one)
As it happens I think my Labour MP (who I didn't vote for, I gave up on them a while ago) does a good constituency job. If that was all I was voting for I would support her.
 
Which is rather damning with faint praise since that can be said of most of the human population and much of the animal population of the world.
Too true.

That woman was a serious menace. She is the reason I find it hard to believe that anyone would vote conservative. After what she did....
 
Too true.

That woman was a serious menace. She is the reason I find it hard to believe that anyone would vote conservative. After what she did....

Indeed. And we have to consider that people like David Cameron started working for the Conservatives after looking at what Thatcher's government was like and presumably thinking "Hmm, I like her style".
 
Wow. So much hate for Maggie.

All she did was:

1) Take the Cold War seriously

2) Defend the UK when it was attacked

3) Curb the power of the unions

4) Leave the UK economy much more competetive

Labour under Foot and Kinnock would have probably failed all those challenges.
 
Wow. So much hate for Maggie.

All she did was:

1) Take the Cold War seriously

2) Defend the UK when it was attacked

3) Curb the power of the unions

4) Leave the UK economy much more competetive

Labour under Foot and Kinnock would have probably failed all those challenges.

Taking the Cold War seriously? You think that Foot/Kinnock would have thought it a joke, considering how closely tied we were/still are to the US?

Defending the UK I agree with UP TO A POINT. Yes, the Falklands was generally justified (ish) but some of the actions (can you say "General Belgrano"? I knew you could) were NOT justified.

She didn't CURB the unions, she DESTROYED them. Breaking strikes and crushing people underfoot. Yeah, real good leader.

As for the UK Economy.....were you living in a CAVE or something? She destroyed the economy! She took everything, absolved the government of responsibility for much of it, created seriously damaging boom and bust laissez-faire capitalism and utterly destroyed British industry.

Wow. You think she was good WHY again?
 
Taking the Cold War seriously? You think that Foot/Kinnock would have thought it a joke, considering how closely tied we were/still are to the US?

Defending the UK I agree with UP TO A POINT. Yes, the Falklands was generally justified (ish) but some of the actions (can you say "General Belgrano"? I knew you could) were NOT justified.

She didn't CURB the unions, she DESTROYED them. Breaking strikes and crushing people underfoot. Yeah, real good leader.

As for the UK Economy.....were you living in a CAVE or something? She destroyed the economy! She took everything, absolved the government of responsibility for much of it, created seriously damaging boom and bust laissez-faire capitalism and utterly destroyed British industry.

Wow. You think she was good WHY again?

Well, a couple of things snipped from Wiki about Foot that I think show a shallowness of understanding (though coming from another side of the aisle I understand that you may view some of these differently):

1950s, 60s:
Foot was however a critic of the west's handling of the Korean war, an opponent of West German rearmament in the early 1950s and a founder member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

As leader of the Labour Party:
The 1983 Labour manifesto, strongly socialist in tone, advocated unilateral nuclear disarmament, higher personal taxation and a return to a more interventionist industrial policy. The manifesto also pledged that a Labour government would abolish the House of Lords and leave the EEC. Among the Labour MPs newly-elected in 1983 in support of this manifesto were Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. Foot's Labour Party lost to the Conservatives in a landslide. Foot resigned and was succeeded by Neil Kinnock as leader. Gerald Kaufman, once Harold Wilson's press officer and during the 1980s a key player on the Labour right, described the 1983 Labour manifesto as "the longest suicide note in history".


To respond to your other points:

The sinking of the Belgrano… I guess I would judge this in three ways:

1) Was it strategically justified? - In my ever humble opinion, yes. The Belgrano posed a notable threat to the task force.

2) Was it morally justified? - I think that if the war is justified, and the act is strategically justified (as per point '1' above), then a case for it being morally justified can be made.

3) Was it legally justified? - Maybe not, being just outside the exclusion zone. However when we are at war and an act is strategically and morally justifiable then it would be a hell of a thing to risk the RN Task Force over a poorly thought out technicality.

Next, regarding destroying the unions instead of curbing them. As anyone whose ever commuted on London Underground will tell you, there are still powerful unions out there. She did destroy their conceit that they could bring down a democratically elected government.

Lastly; you claim that Thatcher created the boom-bust economy!?! I suggest you look at the economic history of post war Britain. It is a series of booms and busts. In fact the thatcherite reforms enabled us to coast along successfully for a while even after New Labour came to power and began squandering their inheritance.

Snippet from Wiki:
"For several decades after World War II, the British economy recorded chronic weak growth and was sometimes referred to as the "sick man of Europe"."
Nobodies called us that since Thatcher's reforms.
 
Indeed. And we have to consider that people like David Cameron started working for the Conservatives after looking at what Thatcher's government was like and presumably thinking "Hmm, I like her style".


Oh I thought it was because they were brought up to always do what nanny said?
 

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