Veganism: I honestly don't understand it

3. Maybe this is the issue--if you consider a pet to be a slave, does that mean you consider a pet to be a "person"?


Well vegans appear to... I would argue that only a human can be a slave, and that talking of bees as "slaves" is emotional nonsense.

It is worth noting that the uses of "slave" that relate to hard work of labour are a byproduct of slaves typically being used for hard work and labour. In its strictest legal sense, "slavery" is defined by ownership of one person by another, and while forced labour or other such factors may be there as well, they are independent of the condition of slavery - if you have ownership of a human and treat them like a literal God, they are still a slave. Likewise sweatshop workers, though in horrendous conditions, are not slaves. Forced labour of POWs or prisoners, likewise, does not constitute slavery.
 
Yes but you still own the cat. It is your property. Therefore it is enslaved, by definition.
I thought I made a pretty good case that I am subjugated by the cat, not the other way round. Sure, I could sell the cat if there were a buyer (not bloody likely), but I could do the same (with greater ease) with my neighbors chainsaw that I surely don't own. By what definition do I own the cat?

My step-sister has a severely autistic adult son who requires far more care from her than my cat does from me. My cat could easily survive without me. My sister has power-of-attorney and other documents that give her near complete control over all aspects of her son's life. Does my sister own her son?

Well vegans appear to... I would argue that only a human can be a slave, and that talking of bees as "slaves" is emotional nonsense.
I agree with you 100% on the bees - total bollocks. Then again, I've only seen one wacko vegan make that claim.
 
It seems that gumboot is working under the strawman that advocating against the eating of meat, is only derived from the argument that animals are people.
 
I thought I made a pretty good case that I am subjugated by the cat, not the other way round. Sure, I could sell the cat if there were a buyer (not bloody likely), but I could do the same (with greater ease) with my neighbors chainsaw that I surely don't own. By what definition do I own the cat?

My step-sister has a severely autistic adult son who requires far more care from her than my cat does from me. My cat could easily survive without me. My sister has power-of-attorney and other documents that give her near complete control over all aspects of her son's life. Does my sister own her son?


Ah... I should clarify; legally own. Of course when you consider slavery you get this weird circular logic. Slavery by definition is the legal owning of one person by another, thus declaring "slavery illegal" is somewhat nonsensical. By definition for something to be slavery it must be legal.
 
It seems that gumboot is working under the strawman that advocating against the eating of meat, is only derived from the argument that animals are people.



I wouldn't say that, but the OP proposes that all animals are equal, which presumably includes people, thus in a way the reasoning of the sort of veganism offered in the OP is in a way that animal products should not be used because animals are people.

I doubt the position held in the OP is actually universal of veganism however. It might not even be common. My sister is a vegan and it's certainly not an argument she holds (she quite likes honey, from memory).

I don't have any particular opinion on veganism other than "not for me".
 
I'm not sure about that. It's called the "slave trade" when someone buys another person and then acts as if they own them, even if the person was bought in the black market.
 
I wouldn't say that, but the OP proposes that all animals are equal, which presumably includes people, thus in a way the reasoning of the sort of veganism offered in the OP is in a way that animal products should not be used because animals are people.

I doubt the position held in the OP is actually universal of veganism however. It might not even be common. My sister is a vegan and it's certainly not an argument she holds (she quite likes honey, from memory).

I don't have any particular opinion on veganism other than "not for me".
Fair enough. :cool:
 
Well vegans appear to... I would argue that only a human can be a slave, and that talking of bees as "slaves" is emotional nonsense.
I agree. None of my vegan friends use that language with regard to bees.

Regarding pets, I think you're not going to get anywhere with your slavery argument. If a pet is a person, then you can look at it as a partnership or care-taking relationship. A pet is as much a slave as an adopted infant is.
 
I agree. None of my vegan friends use that language with regard to bees.

Regarding pets, I think you're not going to get anywhere with your slavery argument. If a pet is a person, then you can look at it as a partnership or care-taking relationship. A pet is as much a slave as an adopted infant is.


Except you don't legally own an adopted infant while you do legally own a pet.
 
I'm not sure about that. It's called the "slave trade" when someone buys another person and then acts as if they own them, even if the person was bought in the black market.


I would argue that the legal terminology is human trafficking.

I guess it's all just semantics, but in a way that's really my point - the choice of "enslaved" to describe domestic honey bees is done purely for emotional impact.

The reality is that wild honey bees are increasingly rare, and without the man made hives they might very well be extinct in certain areas.
 
Ah... I should clarify; legally own. Of course when you consider slavery you get this weird circular logic. Slavery by definition is the legal owning of one person by another, thus declaring "slavery illegal" is somewhat nonsensical. By definition for something to be slavery it must be legal.
I guess I can almost agree. While there are no papers stating I own the cat, should there be any legal question of ownership the courts would consider me the owner.

But, as you've pointed out, we are now wandering off into legal territory not suited to the OP. A person can have much more control over a human's life than an animal's life, but can never be said to own the human because ownership as defined here is a legal concept and ownership of humans is prohibited. Its like the marriage-vs-civil union debate: they are the same thing, we just use different words because the law happens to be written that way. You cannot be gay and "married" because the law does not allow it.

Its clear to me that when vegans complain of "animal enslavement" and yet also own pets that they are not relying on this same legal definition of "own". Rather they are comparing their loving partnership with a pet to the farmer's overtly exploitative and harmful relationship to animals on factory farms. That's a pretty clear distinction for me, though I admit it can fade to shades of gray at the margin.
 
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I would argue that the legal terminology is human trafficking.

I guess it's all just semantics, [...]
Agreed, though sometimes semantics is important...

[...] but in a way that's really my point - the choice of "enslaved" to describe domestic honey bees is done purely for emotional impact.
Well, okay, I'm not sure what the semantics part has to really do with this, but I agree with the "emotional impact" part.

The reality is that wild honey bees are increasingly rare, and without the man made hives they might very well be extinct in certain areas.
Agreed.

By the way, I consider equating beekeeping with slavery to be silly anyways.

I will state this, clearly and without shame: Vegans that don't draw lines and consider all animals to be purely the same are silly. Those that consider all of these animals to be just like humans are also silly. I'd say "sillier", but it's not that long a way to fall in the first place. I can never accept their extremist viewpoints.

However, I find it silly to equate veganism in general with these ideas, which is the title of this thread engages in. Not to mention I've seen arguments in this forum that equate to "Well, you don't want to protect bacteria, so therefore you should do as you want to animals in general!"
 
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Agreed, though sometimes semantics is important...

Well, okay, I'm not sure what the semantics part has to really do with this, but I agree with the "emotional impact" part.

Agreed.

By the way, I consider equating beekeeping with slavery to be silly anyways.

I will state this, clearly and without shame: Vegans that don't draw lines and consider all animals to be purely the same are silly. Those that consider all of these animals to be just like humans are also silly. I'd say "sillier", but it's not that long a way to fall in the first place. I can never accept their extremist viewpoints.

However, I find it silly to equate veganism in general with these ideas, which is the title of this thread engages in. Not to mention I've seen arguments in this forum that equate to "Well, you don't want to protect bacteria, so therefore you should do as you want to animals in general!"


We appear to be in violent agreement. :D
 
It is worth noting that the uses of "slave" that relate to hard work of labour are a byproduct of slaves typically being used for hard work and labour. In its strictest legal sense, "slavery" is defined by ownership of one person by another, and while forced labour or other such factors may be there as well, they are independent of the condition of slavery - if you have ownership of a human and treat them like a literal God, they are still a slave. Likewise sweatshop workers, though in horrendous conditions, are not slaves. Forced labour of POWs or prisoners, likewise, does not constitute slavery.

Again, Merriam-Webster disagrees with your strict and narrow definition, as do most other regular dictionaries (which include drudgery and such and usually give the "ownership" definition as a 3rd meaning).

A quick google for a legal definition comes up with this:
A civil relationship in which one person has absolute power over the life, fortune, and liberty of another.

You got anything to support your one-and-only definition that depends on ownership?

ETA: I agree though that calling honeybees "slaves" is silly. I don't believe it's a very common argument given for one's dietary choices, though.
 
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The weird thing is that the omega fatty acids (like B12 and B6) normally help to reduce the levels of homocysteine, but taken in large quantities those two omega fatty acids seem to produce the opposite effect in some people-- this is actually why it's strongly recommended to only take the recommended doses of things that have B12 and B6 in them (like fish oil or flaxseed oil).

Thanks for that info. Is this also related to the difference in "good" Omega Fatty Acids (ALA) vs. "bad" ones (LA)?

So the 18 mcg of B12 (300% of the RDA) might be too much? I thought most of these vitamins just flushed out in the urine if you have too much. I suppose this stuff isn't water-soluble. . . .
 
However, I find it silly to equate veganism in general with these ideas, which is the title of this thread engages in. Not to mention I've seen arguments in this forum that equate to "Well, you don't want to protect bacteria, so therefore you should do as you want to animals in general!"

I do hear stuff like that.

I agree most people draw a line somewhere (whether it's other mammals, other primates or even just the ban on cannibalism).

Still. . . bacteria aren't animals. They aren't even eucaryotes. Plants are closer to animals than bacteria are.
 
Thanks for that info. Is this also related to the difference in "good" Omega Fatty Acids (ALA) vs. "bad" ones (LA)?

No, that's a different subject as far as diet and nutrition goes. The only really relational matter would be that most fatty acids have some sort of benefit depending on the body type and metabolism of the person, but too much of any fatty acid isn't going to be beneficial.

So the 18 mcg of B12 (300% of the RDA) might be too much? I thought most of these vitamins just flushed out in the urine if you have too much. I suppose this stuff isn't water-soluble. . . .

I doubt that much is what I'd consider too much, but I'm not a nutritionist or a dietician so don't take my word for it. As far as flushing out of the system: yeah, depending on the rest of your body's intake a lot of them will flush right out, but remember that the body absorbs (and stores) fatty acids and some other nutrients faster than others.

Also, I'd have to qualify myself by saying that I'm mostly aware of the B12 stuff because I give my dog a small amount of supplement of B12 with his meals because he has a pretty active metabolism (and shoving more protein into him than he already gets would just make him fat). I learned this from two very good sources, one of whom is way more educated than I am, and it led to me learning more about the effects of B12 and the omega fatty acids on the human body. So, instead of an IANAL disclaimer I suppose I should put an IANAD (I am not a doctor) disclaimer to my comments on the subject. Most of the info I got came from doctors or researchers, but I'm not one of them. :)
 
That's a common view I see in my vegan colleagues. Western=evil, non-Western=Good. Or, actually, everything evil is "Western", everything non evil is "non-Western". For instance; anything evil that happens in Tibet is the result of "western influences".
That's as surprising as it is brilliant.



Our greatest mutation, our large brains, has led to some silly ideas is all.
Yep. :cool:

Really anything taken to enough of an extreme is almost always (if not always) by definition silly.

I also have to wonder what the shoes, belts wallets etc vegans own are made out of.

I also doubt there is enough farmland to feed the entire world (even just to the point we do now) without supplementing with animal food.


As for me, its based ultimately on anthropomorphizing. Animals appear to feel pain, express emotions, have faces, etc... I can empathize with the pain they must feel at being treated cruelly.
See now to me that's a much more honest answer than this "higher nobility" routine I have more frequently run into. Damn plant haters. ;)

*ETA: though I've gotten into fights for suggesting Mike Vick did nothing any more morally repugnant than many meat producers.
:rolleyes: Pls tell me you were just yanking their chain.


Your "Heiress Problem" is hardly a fair parallel to the situation of killing animals for meat. The problem I see with what the Heiress is doing is not that it's "cruel" it's that it's pointless and wasteful. Why not give the dogs away? She's having them put down for no reason at all. You might not think killing animals to eat them is a good reason, but it's mere question-begging to equate it with killing animals for nothing
The heiress example is blatantly silly if not outright baiting so this is the only time I'll address that. Cmon. Not to imply killing animals for food is "automatically OK" per se, but at the very least the degree of immorality at killing for her "reasons" vs killing for food is hardly a close call.

I could also argue that who are vegetarians/vegans to say that drawing the line at animals vs plants is fair? What about cruelty to plants? They're just as alive as any animal. If it was feasible, would vegans instead eat only some kind of synthesized food created in a lab and save the slaughter of innocent plants? Or is the "plants aren't like me enough" make it OK? If so, then this is not a question of morality, but of "guilt by association" (for lack of a better way to put it offhand). ie animals are kinda like us enough that we feel guilty about it (as some have said), so it's not really about right vs wrong at all, but just what does/doesn't make one "queasy."

Re cruelty to animals being bred for food, I am all for combating that -course then you get into the huge subjectivity of drawing the line of what's cruel or not cruel -

Anyway ultimately and as others have said, to each their own; I have nothing against anyone being vegetarian or vegan per se. In fact I do respect it in a way, because going from omnivore to that is likely not easy, and I have to respect someone making a change in their life that is not easy for moral reasons, even if I disagree with them or think some of their reasonings have flaws. Just spare me the alleged superior morality of it .


PS - I bet that if our society DID decide killing animals for food was cruel and it was outlawed, cost of plant food would absolutely go through the roof, and more than a few vegetarians/vegans would be quite willing to go back to being omnivores if meat was cheap enough.
 
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One can, but can 6.7 billion? The fact is, most of our meat comes from factory farms.


I understand that. My point was that from the premise I started with (that it's wrong to kill animals without justification) the fact that we're on "top of the food chain" doesn't constitute justification for me. No more than the fact that I have the power to do some other wrong act somehow makes it moral.

You're starting from a different position, and I don't think the fact that we're on top of the food chain really matters. Would it be different if we were somewhere in the middle? (I.e. if we were predator to some animals, but prey to others?)

I do appreciate your live and let live attitude. Actually, it's not a problem for me. I don't eat meat.

I can't help but wondering why my moral choices piss off some people. I, and most vegetarians that I know personally, don't have any agenda to convert other people.

Before anyone starts lumping me in with animal-rights terrorists (an inherently self-contradictory position--sort of like a "violent militant pacifist"), I don't crow about being a vegetarian. (This conversation is not at all typical of conversations that I have in "real life".) I often eat in restaurants with people who don't realize that I'm a vegetarian. I don't quibble over silly things like whether that utensil or pot has ever been used in meat preparation. I have no problem buying meat dishes for friends or dates.

I'm really not out to make anyone else stop eating meat.

I'm motivated to write on this thread because of some arguments that don't hold water.
Good post. I think most are similar to you in this mindset. Similarly, I think most "meat-eaters" are fine w/that as well and your moral choices don't piss them off at all; again, it's just those few who have that "in your face" and/or snooty superiority complex that are annoying.
 
bigred said:
I bet that if our society DID decide killing animals for food was cruel and it was outlawed, cost of plant food would absolutely go through the roof[...]
You do realize that a LOT of grain and similar material is grown to feed livestock, don't you?
 

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