Do Most Atheists Know that science..... Part 2

[Ryan O'Dine]

I agree with Hokulele that a focused discussion on the details of BBT should be for another thread in another subforum. I also have the impression that DOC does not read the long scientific analyses he’s directed to. I’m diving in anyway because I'm a fool.

Essay by physicist Paul Davies, What Happened Before the Big Bang? DOC, if you’re really interested and not just playing games, please read the whole thing. For everyone else, an excerpt...

The essence of the Hartle-Hawking idea is that the big bang was not the abrupt switching on of time at some singular first moment, but the emergence of time from space in an ultrarapid but nevertheless continuous manner. On a human time scale, the big bang was very much a sudden, explosive origin of space, time, and matter. But look very, very closely at that first tiny fraction of a second and you find that there was no precise and sudden beginning at all. So here we have a theory of the origin of the universe that seems to say two contradictory things: First, time did not always exist; and second, there was no first moment of time. Such are the oddities of quantum physics.

A very recent bit of science offering a somewhat alternative take (ETA: yes, there's much wonderful speculation on this topic) -- Before Big Bang: Light Shed on "Previous Universe"

 

[Lothian]

If you don't know how all the "space" in the known universe came about from something smaller than an atom just be honest and say you don't know. There is no shame in that, there are a lot of things science doesn't know, just like there are some things in Genesis that are difficult to understand or explain.

Doc, You are right science does not have all the answers yet. I note that you don’t say that there are things religion does not know, just things that are difficult to understand or explain.

That is good as I have been studying the biblical creation story and find it fascinating and want to know more. I appreciate it might be difficult for me to understand your explanations but I am willing to give it a go. Rather than bombard you with lots of questions on the whole of creation I will just start with the first day perhaps we could explore the others later.

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

What was there before God created the heaven and the earth?
How long was it there?
How long ago was the beginning?
Where was God before the beginning?
Who made God?
What is GOd made from?
Where is heaven, and what did God make it from?
The earth is made up of many elements did God make it all at once or did he make the bits and then assemble it?
Were all elements made simultaneously or were some made before others?
If so in what order were they made?
Why did he make them?
Why did he make different amounts?
How did he make them?
Did they spring to being out of nothing or did God somehow transform elements from one to another? If he transformed them Why could he not make them out of nothing?
What does without form mean? Was the Earth a sphere ? Did it exist?
Where did the water come from ? How did God make it? Did he make it after making the earth or was it made at the same time ?
Where did the light come from? What was the source? Did he make the source first and then make is shine or did he make the source and the light at the same time?
How many eyes does God have or does he see in a different way to us?
Is his eye badly designed as well ?
In what way did he see Light as good ?
How did he know the earth was without form, and void without light to see?
How did God divide light from darkness?
In what way were they joined before?
Why did he make them joined and then separate them, why not make them separate?
Where did the light (which made day) come from ?
Was the sun made at this point?
Were parts of the world were in darkness and parts in light or was all the world in Day then all in night ?
How did Day turn to night?
Was the light constant and then did it switch off or did it vary?
Where did the light go?
Why did the evening come before the morning?

I am really interested in these questions. I appreciate they might be difficult and perhaps you might not be able to answer them. However I would like to know the answers. How can I find out the ones you don’t know? How do we find out how God did things or is it a secret?

 

[joobz]

To Hokulele, above is your statement about the creation of the universe -- your scientific genesis, I guess you could say -- that I brought into the first post of this thread. I bolded the part where you talked about mass and energy. Then you said density was infinite, and timespace essentially did not exist yet. Can you explain how this non-existent timespace that was contained in something smaller than an atom became all the "space" that makes up the 100 billion galaxies in the known universe. If you don't know, then feel free to say so.

So, DOC, Are you admitting that the bbt does not claim that the universe had start point, but effectively always existed just in a different form? Does this not contradict the bible genesis account?

DOC, admit it. No matter what science discovers and determines regarding reality, you will claim that these theories agree with the bible.


Why is there no mention of particle/wave duality in the bible?
Or why did it get the timeline wrong on the emergence of species(fruit bearing trees)?
why did it claim a global flood, when there is no evidence for it?

 

[DOC]

Doc, You are right science does not have all the answers yet. I note that you don’t say that there are things religion does not know, just things that are difficult to understand or explain.

That is good as I have been studying the biblical creation story and find it fascinating and want to know more. I appreciate it might be difficult for me to understand your explanations but I am willing to give it a go. Rather than bombard you with lots of questions on the whole of creation I will just start with the first day perhaps we could explore the others later.

What was there before God created the heaven and the earth?
How long was it there?
How long ago was the beginning?
Where was God before the beginning?
Who made God?
What is GOd made from?
Where is heaven, and what did God make it from?
The earth is made up of many elements did God make it all at once or did he make the bits and then assemble it?
Were all elements made simultaneously or were some made before others?
If so in what order were they made?
Why did he make them?
Why did he make different amounts?
How did he make them?
Did they spring to being out of nothing or did God somehow transform elements from one to another? If he transformed them Why could he not make them out of nothing?
What does without form mean? Was the Earth a sphere ? Did it exist?
Where did the water come from ? How did God make it? Did he make it after making the earth or was it made at the same time ?
Where did the light come from? What was the source? Did he make the source first and then make is shine or did he make the source and the light at the same time?
How many eyes does God have or does he see in a different way to us?
Is his eye badly designed as well ?
In what way did he see Light as good ?
How did he know the earth was without form, and void without light to see?
How did God divide light from darkness?
In what way were they joined before?
Why did he make them joined and then separate them, why not make them separate?
Where did the light (which made day) come from ?
Was the sun made at this point?
Were parts of the world were in darkness and parts in light or was all the world in Day then all in night ?
How did Day turn to night?
Was the light constant and then did it switch off or did it vary?
Where did the light go?
Why did the evening come before the morning?

I am really interested in these questions. I appreciate they might be difficult and perhaps you might not be able to answer them. However I would like to know the answers. How can I find out the ones you don’t know? How do we find out how God did things or is it a secret?

You've got to remember that the X's and O's of creation is not the main theme of the bible. The main theme of the Bible by far is Christ and spiritual matters.

Although I (like Billy Graham) am "currently" not a literalist, I think there is a definite possibility that Genesis can be 100% true in ways we don't completely understand yet.

For example, the Bible was written for uneducated illiterate recent slaves with no scientific knowledge. How could it be possible (or why would it even be necessary) to tell them that God is continuously making stars (science knows that stars are being created daily). This would be confusing to people whose only understanding of stars is what they see in the sky because they might not notice any new stars above them each day. So since the author of Genesis wanted to convey God made everything. He matter of factly said, He made the stars also. It really doesn't matter what day he chose to say that because God (or the universe he created) continues to make stars daily.

 

[Darat]

You've got to remember that the X's and O's of creation is not the main theme of the bible. The main theme of the Bible by far is Christ and spiritual matters.

Although I (like Billy Graham) am "currently" not a literalist, I think there is a definite possibility that Genesis can be 100% true in ways we don't completely understand yet.

For example, the Bible was written for uneducated illiterate recent slaves with no scientific knowledge. How could it be possible (or why would it even be necessary) to tell them that God is continuously making stars (science knows that stars are being created daily). This would be confusing to people whose only understanding of stars is what they see in the sky because they might not notice any new stars above them each day. So since the author of Genesis wanted to convey God made everything. He matter of factly said, He made the stars also. It really doesn't matter what day he chose to say that because God continues to make stars daily.

Could you indicate which of these questions that is the answer to - thanks:

...snip...

What was there before God created the heaven and the earth?
How long was it there?
How long ago was the beginning?
Where was God before the beginning?
Who made God?
What is GOd made from?
Where is heaven, and what did God make it from?
The earth is made up of many elements did God make it all at once or did he make the bits and then assemble it?
Were all elements made simultaneously or were some made before others?
If so in what order were they made?
Why did he make them?
Why did he make different amounts?
How did he make them?
Did they spring to being out of nothing or did God somehow transform elements from one to another? If he transformed them Why could he not make them out of nothing?
What does without form mean? Was the Earth a sphere ? Did it exist?
Where did the water come from ? How did God make it? Did he make it after making the earth or was it made at the same time ?
Where did the light come from? What was the source? Did he make the source first and then make is shine or did he make the source and the light at the same time?
How many eyes does God have or does he see in a different way to us?
Is his eye badly designed as well ?
In what way did he see Light as good ?
How did he know the earth was without form, and void without light to see?
How did God divide light from darkness?
In what way were they joined before?
Why did he make them joined and then separate them, why not make them separate?
Where did the light (which made day) come from ?
Was the sun made at this point?
Were parts of the world were in darkness and parts in light or was all the world in Day then all in night ?
How did Day turn to night?
Was the light constant and then did it switch off or did it vary?
Where did the light go?
Why did the evening come before the morning?

...snip...

 

[joobz]

You've got to remember that the X's and O's of creation is not the main theme of the bible. The main theme of the Bible by far is Christ and spiritual matters.

Although I (like Billy Graham) am "currently" not a literalist, I think there is a definite possibility that Genesis can be 100% true in ways we don't completely understand yet.

that's called affirming the consequent.

For example, the Bible was written for uneducated illiterate recent slaves with no scientific knowledge. How could it be possible (or why would it even be necessary) to tell them that God is continuously making stars (science knows that stars are being created daily). This would be confusing to people whose only understanding of stars is what they see in the sky because they might not notice any new stars above them each day. So since the author of Genesis wanted to convey God made everything. He matter of factly said, He made the stars also. It really doesn't matter what day he chose to say that because God (or the universe he created) continues to make stars daily.

But the people were able to believe that a bush which was on fire but did not burn talked to someone?

 

[FireGarden]

For example, the Bible was written for uneducated illiterate recent slaves with no scientific knowledge. How could it be possible (or why would it even be necessary) to tell them that God is continuously making stars (science knows that stars are being created daily). This would be confusing to people whose only understanding of stars is what they see in the sky because they might not notice any new stars above them each day.

So since the author of Genesis wanted to convey God made everything....

If that's what the author wanted to say, he could have said it and given no details: "In the beginning there was nothing but God. Then God made everything. As you can imagine, the details of this construction are very intricate. You think tieing a loin cloth is complicated? Or counting sheep when they won't stand still? Well... this creating stuff was a good deal more complex than that. Have the humility to accept your limitations of understanding. Now listen to the following in Latin -- even if you don't understand Latin."

But the author didn't do that.

 

[zooterkin]

You've got to remember that the X's and O's of creation is not the main theme of the bible. The main theme of the Bible by far is Christ and spiritual matters.

Are you sure? He doesn't appear until quite late in the narrative.

I think there is a definite possibility that Genesis can be 100% true in ways we don't completely understand yet.

I estimate this probability as being .0000000001 %

 

[DOC]

Could you indicate which of these questions that is the answer to - thanks:

I was responding to the general theme of his post, especially his first paragraph in the post and by doing so I even unintentionally alluded to this question he posed:

Where did the light come from? What was the source? Did he make the source first and then make is shine or did he make the source and the light at the same time?

Also the question of the importance of when stars were created in Genesis has come up in several different posts made by others.

 

[Darat]

I was responding to the general theme of his post,

...snip...

All of which is completely irrelevant to providing the answers he asked you - will you be answering them?

 

[Lothian]

For example, the Bible was written for uneducated illiterate recent slaves with no scientific knowledge. How could it be possible (or why would it even be necessary) to tell them that God is continuously making stars (science knows that stars are being created daily). This would be confusing to people whose only understanding of stars is what they see in the sky because they might not notice any new stars above them each day. So since the author of Genesis wanted to convey God made everything. He matter of factly said, He made the stars also. It really doesn't matter what day he chose to say that because God (or the universe he created) continues to make stars daily.

Doc are you saying that Stars were the light god made on day 1 ? If so which stars specifically.

I am interested in these answers. I am pleased to note that you consider that the bible is meant for uneducated illiterates; our opinions are converging all the time.

 

[Elizabeth I]

For example, the Bible was written for uneducated illiterate recent slaves with no scientific knowledge. How could it be possible (or why would it even be necessary) to tell them that God is continuously making stars (science knows that stars are being created daily). This would be confusing to people whose only understanding of stars is what they see in the sky because they might not notice any new stars above them each day.

I repeat:

Why didn't he teach them? I understand he was still speaking directly to mortals back then.

Or just put the knowledge into their minds? He's GOD. He can do anything.

I mean, you seem to be saying that for some reason it was important to God that people understood where everything came from. Why didn't he show them somehow?

And if they were "illiterate desert wanderers" who was writing all this stuff down?

 

[DOC]

I am pleased to note that you consider that the bible is meant for uneducated illiterates; our opinions are converging all the time.

The bible wasn't in existence when Genesis was written or when any of the books of the Bible were written for that matter. If Genesis wasn't written for the Hebrew desert wanderers (who were recent Egyptian slaves) who was it written for.

 

[DOC]

Quote from DOC
Genesis did not give all the knowledge about the universe to the illiterate desert wanderers -- just some.

Why didn't he teach them? I understand he was still speaking directly to mortals back then.

Or just put the knowledge into their minds? He's GOD. He can do anything.

I mean, you seem to be saying that for some reason it was important to God that people understood where everything came from. Why didn't he show them somehow?

And if they were "illiterate desert wanderers" who was writing all this stuff down?

Actually, in my opinion, it's not really important to know the X's and O's of how God created the universe. Giving a little knowledge about it (like God inspired in Genesis) to possibly satisfy natural human curiosity is enough for me. And if someone wants to delve deeper, well that's there business. I seem to remember the ex pope saying that Christianity has nothing to fear from science.

And I never said it was important for people understood where everything came from.

And there were probably a few people who could read and write amongst the Jews. But obviously most of the former Egyptian slaves couldn't read and write. There probably wasn't many bookstores in the desert.

 

[Lothian]

The bible wasn't in existence when Genesis was written or when any of the books of the Bible were written for that matter. If Genesis wasn't written for the Hebrew desert wanderers (who were recent Egyptian slaves) who was it written for.

Doc, I fully agree that the books of the bible were not intended for us today but are aimed at our ignorant, illiterate, unscientific and unquestioning ancestors.

What I want to know is; where does religion today provide the answers to questions concerning the origin of the universe. Where are God’s later revelations as to how he did it? If he hasn’t made any how does religion go go about getting further knowledge?

 

[Hokulele]

And I never said it was important for people understood where everything came from.

Then why are you badgering me for details regarding the Big Bang Theory?

 

[DOC]

Posted by DOC
And I never said it was important for people understood where everything came from.

Then why are you badgering me for details regarding the Big Bang Theory?

Well badgering is an inappropriate word but I would have to believe the BB is a big part of your world philosophical view. If your going to belittle theism based largely on science then you should have a solid understanding of the science behind the belittling (if "that scientific understanding" in fact exists).

 

[Hokulele]

Well badgering is an inappropriate word but I would have to believe the BB is a big part of your world philosophical view. If your going to belittle theism based largely on science then you should have a solid understanding of the science behind the belittling (if "that scientific understanding" in fact exists).

No, I belittle certain ideas put forth by theists when they are ignorant of what scientific theories actually say, and when they make claims completely unsupported by any evidence. And no, the Big Bang Theory has nothing to do with my "world philosophical view".

And if you plan on belittling atheists, it would help if you didn't pull figures out of your ass in a pitiful attempt to support your arguments.

 

[Lothian]

If your going to belittle theism based largely on science then you should have a solid understanding of the science behind the belittling (if "that scientific understanding" in fact exists).

Doc, If you are going to belittle science based largely on religious canon then you should have a solid understanding of the religious beliefs behind the belittling (if that religious understanding in fact exists).
Perhaps you could clarify this by answering my questions in post 942 from the religious viewpoint.

 

[joobz]

Quote from DOC
Genesis did not give all the knowledge about the universe to the illiterate desert wanderers -- just some.

...[snip]...
And there were probably a few people who could read and write amongst the Jews. But obviously most of the former Egyptian slaves couldn't read and write. There probably wasn't many bookstores in the desert.

DOC, you seem to be opperating on the "People were dumber back then" idea. Why do you think desert wanderers would be any less likely to understand science?