Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[LAL]

So now we have Patty in the mansion in the hands of a wealthy collector. Five will get you ten that there is no Patty suit in that mansion if there is even a mansion at all. But assuming there is it is as difficult to accept how that could have stayed below the radar this long. Somebody should tip Bob H off and he can add the in the mansion somewhere to his story. Hmmm maybe that collector would like a replica of Bob too.

Just so it isn't stretched 20%.............

Maybe Mr. Munns would like the job.

Nobody mentioned a Jimmy Stewart connection, did they?

 

[captain koolaid]

...I didn't bother to follow Dfoot's comments on this board. I read them on the old BFF thread where he began having these great unsubstantiated ideas...

Unsubtantiated ideas? In Footery?
Get right outta here! No way?!

 

[kitakaze]

Did I say he didn't go to Hollywood? It's what all he did there that's pure conjecture. He wrote a song, too. I suppose that means he had secret connections in Nashville.

If you've read Green you should remember he said Patterson made a trip to check on copyrights. It's not like other researchers didn't know that.

No oops there at all. You read something in in hopes of tripping me up, but I deftly jumped over your foot. Sorry about that.

I think it's wildly entertaining that you can know as much as you do about Patterson and think he just perversely lucked out with Patty. Nobody could reach the stars like that again over 40 years but he made it, baby. He made it. Even the guy who was paying his bills thought he faked it but it's alright. He made fake tracks, maybe he had a suit, he had major connections in Hollywood, drew girlyfoots, filmed a girlyfoot encounter straight out of his favourite BF story, played dress-up with his friends, had explicit connections to the only guy to claim to be in the suit, never told us where the film was developed, and kept screwing everybody around him but it's alright. It's alright, baby.

Oh, Lu, one ain't enough. For some deft jumping:

The Impressions.

Curtis Mayfield solo.

J.J. Jackson.

Bang Gang.

Komeda. (Warning: Zombie mutant scary yuck.)

Pet Shop Boys.

Sterling Void.

Eurythmics.

Bob Dylan.

Guns N' Roses.

Black Sabbath.

The Police.

Echo and the Bunnymen.

Tom Waits.

And last but not least...

Dolly Parton.

I hope you enjoy at least one of those.

 

[LAL]

Just where is this "reliable" circumstantial evidence?

The opinion of Ken Petersen at Disney has been dismissed because he was a vice president, experts who said a suit like that would cost $300,000 or might be buildable for a million, but they wouldn't know where to start are overruled by fx people who said it could be done cheaply, Russian biomechanics experts are eliminated as "hominologists" (they weren't) the professors of anatomy must be wrong because they must be wrong, but Hollywood rumors Roger's trips and Wah Chang masks and the "confession" of one who couldn't keep his story straight are reliable circumstantial evidence?

Is Don Post out now because Verne Langdon said so?

 

[LAL]

I think it's wildly entertaining that you can know as much as you do about Patterson and think he just perversely lucked out with Patty.

No luck about it. He trained for getting the camera out of the camera bag quickly, just in case, he'd already been on "pre-expeditions", he talked with people around Willow Creek and even visited Ray Wallace in Toledo, Washington, concerning the Crew tracks. (Ray was a sub-contractor and was away on business when those were found in 1958. He returned because he thought someone was trying to sabotage his operation.) The Argosy article on the Crew tracks was what got him interested in the first place. He collected newspaper clippings about sightings and track finds. The OM/BCM trackways had been found only weeks before (Al Hodgson, whom he already knew, called Patricia about them) and the Bluff Creek area had a history going back decades. He did what any good investigator would do; he investigated.

I think this excerpt from a letter to Paul Trout in 1957 (reprinted in Roger's book) sums it up pretty well:

"Only whites", or any color, "when they don't know nothing laff like fools." - Mary Joe

That seems to be the reaction here rather than admit a "footer" may have made a point.

You wasted a lot of time posting those links. I'm not even curious.

 

[kitakaze]

Just where is this "reliable" circumstantial evidence?

The opinion of Ken Petersen at Disney has been dismissed because he was a vice president, experts who said a suit like that would cost $300,000 or might be buildable for a million, but they wouldn't know where to start are overruled by fx people who said it could be done cheaply, Russian biomechanics experts are eliminated as "hominologists" (they weren't) the professors of anatomy must be wrong because they must be wrong, but Hollywood rumors Roger's trips and Wah Chang masks and the "confession" of one who couldn't keep his story straight are reliable circumstantial evidence?

Is Don Post out now because Verne Langdon said so?

No one in over 40 years which has seen the vast proliferation and advancement of imaging technology has been able to produce unambiguous visual documentation of what we are told is one of the biggest land mammals in North America which ranges all over the continent - Reliable.

Anybody that counters this with a sentence that has the word 'remote' in it should be sentenced to 3 hours BFRO database reading.

Patterson had major connections in Hollywood such as his representation by entertainment lawyer giant Walter Hurst - Reliable.

Patterson was drawing girlyfoots in his book the year prior to the PGF - Reliable.

Patterson in that book copied Morgan Kunstler's illustration of the Roe story - Reliable.

The Roe story had a major impression on Patterson and the PGF plays very much like a re-enactment of it - Reliable.

Roger Patterson was filming a "documentary" with fictitious characters such as Gimlin's wigged native tracker - Reliable.

The PGF is unavailable for scrutiny and the place of development never revealed thus not allowing the date of filming to be confirmed - Reliable.

Only one known individual has been confirmed as claiming to have worn the suit. This person has a personal relationship with Gimlin, lives on the same street as him, and has three points of contact with Patterson at the time of the PGF - Reliable.

Patterson constructed fake tracks - Reliable.

Patterson was in dire straits financially and physically, had an arrest warrant issued for the failure to return his rented movie camera, and would have had strong motivation to conduct a hoax - Reliable.

The opinion of Ken Petersen at Disney has been dismissed because he was a vice president, experts who said a suit like that would cost $300,000 or might be buildable for a million, but they wouldn't know where to start are overruled by fx people who said it could be done cheaply...

Yes. You want to talk about a suit? Talk to professionals who make suits. No brainer. Chris Walas, Dave Klindon, Rick Baker, John Vulich, Mike McCracken, Howard Berger and other FX artists say its a suit. Though I wish Patty was real I'm inclined to listen.

...Russian biomechanics experts are eliminated as "hominologists" (they weren't) the professors of anatomy must be wrong because they must be wrong...

Scientific consensus is that Patty walks like a man. Meldrum agrees a human can walk like Patty. Russian kooks may be available for second opinions if they are not at Mary Green's house or doing MonsterQuest commentary.

Hollywood rumors Roger's trips and Wah Chang masks and the "confession" of one who couldn't keep his story straight are reliable circumstantial evidence?

See beginning of post.

Is Don Post out now because Verne Langdon said so?

Nobody thinks Verne Langdon has insider knowledge regarding the PGF. The Wah Chang mask is an excellent match for Patty but it may not have been used. It's certainly not out. I for one would like to hear specifics of Langdon's thoughts.

 

[kitakaze]

No luck about it.

I often find your lack of self-awareness staggering. No luck about it would imply repeatable, testable conditions and yet over 40 years later and still no dice. Quick with a camera and be in area that had tracks we can't positively link to the local known hoaxer. Who'da thunkit!?

He trained for getting the camera out of the camera bag quickly, just in case,

Said the guy trying to convince people he filmed a girlyfoot. I really don't know what to do with these chasms of reasoning. Wait, is that Legolas off the back of the horse or trapped underneath, here's my gnarly stirrup?

he'd already been on "pre-expeditions",

Such as?

he talked with people around Willow Creek and even visited Ray Wallace in Toledo, Washington, concerning the Crew tracks. (Ray was a sub-contractor and was away on business when those were found in 1958. He returned because he thought someone was trying to sabotage his operation.) The Argosy article on the Crew tracks was what got him interested in the first place. He collected newspaper clippings about sightings and track finds. The OM/BCM trackways had been found only weeks before (Al Hodgson, whom he already knew, called Patricia about them) and the Bluff Creek area had a history going back decades. He did what any good investigator would do; he investigated.

Are you referring to tracks which tracking dogs showed no reaction to?

I think this excerpt from a letter to Paul Trout in 1957 (reprinted in Roger's book) sums it up pretty well:

"Only whites", or any color, "when they don't know nothing laff like fools." - Mary Joe

I assume you added the "or any color". I know a lot about the PGF and I find it anyone who engages in concerted apologism for it beyond reason to be pretty funny.

That seems to be the reaction here rather than admit a "footer" may have made a point.

I've seen footers make lots of good points. They make the best when they acknowledge that there is no reliable evidence for Bigfoot and admit that their belief in Bigfoot is based on something else.

You wasted a lot of time posting those links. I'm not even curious.

Not at all. I had a blast putting that together. I'm a DJ, Lu. It's what I do. I put some music in there I thought you might like and some that I thought others would like too. It's fun. Besides, can you really tell me "It's Alright" by The Impressions don't make you smile? If it doesn't then you should stop being a Patty and take the lemon out your mouth.

 

[clayflingythingy]

Question for LAL and other probigfoot posters

If the PGF is the Gold Standard proof of bigfoot existance, how many more years must pass without a body before you acknowledge that bigfoot doesn't exist and the PGF must have been a hoax?

 

[Correa Neto]

...snip...Correa, please give specifics on why you think LMS is "pseudoscience". You have seen it, haven't you?

1. Extensive use of anedoctal data.
2. Use of evidence suspected of being hoaxed.
3. This brilliant product of bigfoot science (inhuman walk rederings included)

, based BTW, on evidence suspected of being fraudulent.

Its pseudoscience.

If sasquatches are descended from Gigantopithecus blacki or is are in the human/gorilla/chimpanzee group, yes, there's a fossil record of similar animals.

Why footers keep ignoring the fact that these fossils are not found in North America or anywhere close to it? The fossil record would only back bigfeet if one of these species were found in North America. Some footers have a tendency to stretch too much the inferences one actually can make with data.

Gigantopithecus habitat, according to available data, was at "a shooting distance" from North America only if you are using an ICBM...

 

[Correa Neto]

If the PGF is the Gold Standard proof of bigfoot existance, how many more years must pass without a body before you acknowledge that bigfoot doesn't exist and the PGF must have been a hoax?

He.
Forever. The best you'll get is they saying bigfeet no longer exist and blaming skeptics and close-minded-mainstream-scientists-isolated-within-their-ivory-towers for the extinction of such wonderfull and majestic creatures.

 

[Crowlogic]

No one in over 40 years which has seen the vast proliferation and advancement of imaging technology has been able to produce unambiguous visual documentation of what we are told is one of the biggest land mammals in North America which ranges all over the continent - Reliable.

Anybody that counters this with a sentence that has the word 'remote' in it should be sentenced to 3 hours BFRO database reading.

Patterson had major connections in Hollywood such as his representation by entertainment lawyer giant Walter Hurst - Reliable.

Patterson was drawing girlyfoots in his book the year prior to the PGF - Reliable.

Patterson in that book copied Morgan Kunstler's illustration of the Roe story - Reliable.

The Roe story had a major impression on Patterson and the PGF plays very much like a re-enactment of it - Reliable.


Patterson was in dire straits financially and physically, had an arrest warrant issued for the failure to return his rented movie camera, and would have had strong motivation to conduct a hoax - Reliable.


QUOTE]

I've long felt that the advancment of image capturing devices should be capturing not only Bigfoot but other phenom. as well. Seems only the UFO cimmunity has benifited with being able to produce hordes of hoakey images. More saucers than Bigfoot out there? Too many saucers me thinks.

If Patterson had major connections to Hollywood he would have been in Hollywood. I have connections to Hollywood too but a connection does not a benifical circumstance make. If you've got nothng to bring to the table you could be dinning every night with Spielberg and it'll get you nowhere. After the PGF Patterson had a film that needed distribution and where better to develope the infrastructure for that than Hollywood. He'd have been stupid to rely on rodeo promoters to deal with his film.

Here's one to ponder. Why did Roe claim to have seen a female? He had no photo evidence he could have said the typical genderless thing and not included sex or said male. Higher life forms require male and female.

Seriously Patterson's arrest warrant was little more than a formality from the camera rental. In a case like that one simply returns the merchandise pays a late fee and all is forgiven. But how could Patterson been in dire straights? He had strong connections to Hollywood remember.

If Patterson's luck seems staggering well luck is a strange thing. In the 1980 World Series the NY Yankees were trailing and shortstop Bucky Dent came to bat. As he prepared to leave the dugout he grabbed his bat but was stopped by Willie Randolph who said "Here Bucky take "this" bat its got a home run in it. Dent went to home plate took a pitch and promptly knocked it over fence clearing the bases for the win. But beyond that Dent was a dismal hitter who spent the final years of his carreer in a batting slump from which he never recovered. But Patterson was riding a far better streak of luck than filming a cryptoid. He was beating cancer which he did for an almost unheard of period of time for 1967. But sure after the PGF Patterson had connections to Hollywood. His widow must still have some today. Let's just say that the PGF gained the Patterson's the Hollywod admission ticket. What prior reason did Patterson have to have a strong or otherwise connection to Hollywood? Incidently by 1967 Gene Vincent was a burnt out drunken hasbeen and if I'm not mistaken died the same year as Patterson did.

 

[Drewbot]

Correa-
The part about LMS that was fascinating, was the analysis of the thigh bulge. They had that sucker diagnosed in seconds. And you'll find that the Memorial Day footage clearly shows a baby being lifted up at the end of the run. CLEARLY!

 

[LAL]

No one in over 40 years which has seen the vast proliferation and advancement of imaging technology has been able to produce unambiguous visual documentation of what we are told is one of the biggest land mammals in North America which ranges all over the continent - Reliable.

Most sightings are not by people who are carrying advanced imaging equipment. Some of the groups are acquiring same. We could definitely use some help from NatGeo. Fossey and Leakey got it.

Anybody that counters this with a sentence that has the word 'remote' in it should be sentenced to 3 hours BFRO database reading.

No need. I get the fun of organizing MABRC's. Did you know John Green made a searchable data base in DOS? He collected about 4000 reports in 40 years before he quit doing that.

Patterson had major connections in Hollywood such as his representation by entertainment lawyer giant Walter Hurst - Reliable.

The connections were Merritt's. He set that up. He also offered his own publicity agent, Jack Oliphant.

Patterson was drawing girlyfoots in his book the year prior to the PGF - Reliable.

Others drew from descriptions as well, some from their own experience. This still goes on. He was illustrating his self-published book (paid for by Al DeAtley) and had already been investigating and interviewing for several years.

Patterson in that book copied Morgan Kunstler's illustration of the Roe story - Reliable.

So what? That just shows he wasn't that great an artist. He probably copied the rodeo riders too.

The Roe story had a major impression on Patterson and the PGF plays very much like a re-enactment of it - Reliable.

Read the book. He interviewed Albert Ostman. His story made a big impression. So did Fred Beck's. Roe did not see a female walking across a sandbar in Bluff Creek, California, and Patty does not pick berries.

Roger Patterson was filming a "documentary" with fictitious characters such as Gimlin's wigged native tracker - Reliable.

He was trying to make something that would sell. Bob Gimlin is part Indian, anyway. Bob went with him to St. Helens. Roger asked him to help track.

The PGF is unavailable for scrutiny and the place of development never revealed thus not allowing the date of filming to be confirmed - Reliable.

It was developed privately, and the guy doing the work could have lost his job. I hope DeAtley recovers his memory. There's no problem with the timeline if it was processed in Seattle outside normal business hours.

Only one known individual has been confirmed as claiming to have worn the suit. This person has a personal relationship with Gimlin, lives on the same street as him, and has three points of contact with Patterson at the time of the PGF - Reliable.

It has not been confirmed BH wore any suit (even his own). Jerry Merritt was invited to go to Bluff Creek (per Merritt). Why would they do that if they were planning a hoax?

Bob Gimlin denied the story in a statement from his attorney.

I have a convicted sex offender living up the road from me.

The three points of contact are what again?

Patterson constructed fake tracks - Reliable.

If true. Making photogenic tracks for the documentary could be a bit of license, like using gasoline to make a fire flare up for the camera (if that story is true).

Patterson was in dire straits financially and physically, had an arrest warrant issued for the failure to return his rented movie camera, and would have had strong motivation to conduct a hoax - Reliable.

If he was in dire straits financially how did he afford a suit? Merritt said they were able to raise a dollar here, a dollar there. He made and sold things. DeAtley helped him out with $20's now and again. The warrant was issued before he went to Bluff Creek, but was it served? Did he know about it? The case against him was dismissed. So was the one against Gimlin on the plywood. According to the family, the foreman told him to store the plywood.

Roger knew he was dying. He wanted to leave something for his wife and that was powerful motivation to shoot the documentary. According to Merritt he was really into the bigfoot stuff.

Yes. You want to talk about a suit? Talk to professionals who make suits. No brainer. Chris Walas, Dave Klindon, Rick Baker, John Vulich, Mike McCracken, Howard Berger and other FX artists say its a suit. Though I wish Patty was real I'm inclined to listen.

Then listen to the ones on the other side. Prohaska was considered the best at the time. I'm talking to Bill Munns.

Scientific consensus is that Patty walks like a man.

That is actually an argument for authenticity since all the great apes walk the same regardless of gender. Only human females walk differently because of the wide pelvis that allows passage of big-brained infants.

Meldrum agrees a human can walk like Patty.

Within the parameters of that experiment. He does not agree it's a human gait.

Russian kooks may be available for second opinions if they are not at Mary Green's house or doing MonsterQuest commentary.

That was the Carter farm. Janice gave a pretty good description of how they actually are reported to kill deer and Igor acted it out. He was really spry for his age.

What MQ commentary? I've read something about Bayanov doing something on Zana, but I haven't seen it.

The Russian "kooks" would be the Russian Central Scientific Research Institute of Prosthetics and Artificial Limb Construction.

They found the gait indicated great weight. They stated bulk can be simulated but not great weight.

See beginning of post.

Where's the evidence to back up BH's story?

Nobody thinks Verne Langdon has insider knowledge regarding the PGF. The Wah Chang mask is an excellent match for Patty but it may not have been used. It's certainly not out. I for one would like to hear specifics of Langdon's thoughts.

Nobody thinks Verne Langdon has insider knowledge? Not even tube?

 

[LAL]

1. Extensive use of anedoctal data.
2. Use of evidence suspected of being hoaxed.
3. This brilliant product of bigfoot science (inhuman walk rederings included)
[qimg]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/AVCN/crappyscience.jpg[/qimg], based BTW, on evidence suspected of being fraudulent.

Its pseudoscience.


Why footers keep ignoring the fact that these fossils are not found in North America or anywhere close to it? The fossil record would only back bigfeet if one of these species were found in North America. Some footers have a tendency to stretch too much the inferences one actually can make with data.

Gigantopithecus habitat, according to available data, was at "a shooting distance" from North America only if you are using an ICBM...

What anecdotal evidence? LMS is one of the few docs that doesn't give us eyewitness after eyewitness.

The platypus was suspected of being a hoax too, by the Royal Society, a "clever Chinese fake". Suspected hoax would include just about everything, according to skeptics. Suspected doesn't = is.

We've been over the fossil thing already, several times. There are similar fossil animals. They don't have to be on the same continent.

Half a century of excavations in Africa turned up three Chimpanzee teeth in an unexpected place. Chimpanzees live in Africa, last I heard.

It was thought humans needed clothing and fire and an advanced toolkit to migrate out of Africa.........until the discovery of Homo georgicus.

Just how many large Asian mammals migrated over the Bering Land Bridge into North America?

BTW, you do know the digital figure you posted wasn't in LMS, don't you?

 

[captain koolaid]

No luck about it. He trained for getting the camera out of the camera bag quickly, just in case...

So Roger Patterson, the Bigfoot hunter and "documentary" film maker, the guy that operated on the belief that Bigfoot was a huge, volatile, unpredictable, aggressive, ninja-like beast- capable of hurling Volkswagens - actually "trained" in getting the camera out of the bag quickly, "just in case"...

Yet didn't bother to to do the same with his rifle, nor even obtain a $2 sling?

It's almost as if he was confident, in the extreme, that only a petite, and tame female would sashay along Bluff Creek?

Fascinating...

 

[LAL]

Correa-
The part about LMS that was fascinating, was the analysis of the thigh bulge. They had that sucker diagnosed in seconds. And you'll find that the Memorial Day footage clearly shows a baby being lifted up at the end of the run. CLEARLY!

The thigh bulge was first noticed by Doug Haijcek after the digitalization from John Green's first generation copy of the PGF. You noted Dr. Nelson concurred with Dr. Meldrum.

Funny they didn't notice the baby was a paintballer's backpack, but we digress.

 

[William Parcher]

In July, Tom Biscardi visited Bob Heironimus and Patricia Patterson.

From Bob Heironimus' home, we drove around the block to visit with Pattie Patterson.

After leaving the Patterson home, we headed back towards Bob Heironimus' street to meet with Bob Gimlin. Bob Gimlin, as it turned out, lives only nine houses down the street from Bob Heironimus and only a few blocks from the Patterson home.

 

[Drewbot]

The thigh bulge was first noticed by Doug Haijcek after the digitalization from John Green's first generation copy of the PGF. You noted Dr. Nelson concurred with Dr. Meldrum.

Funny they didn't notice the baby was a paintballer's backpack, but we digress.

A. It should be noted that John Green's 1st gen. copy of the PGF, is debatable. Is it shown anywhere that his copy was directly copied from the actual original film?

B. I noted that some doctor said something like "Oooh that injury would cause difficulty walking" And it just happened to be the same show where they showed some computer generated gait with a wobbly knee.

C. Of course they didn't notice the paintballer's backpack, to do so wouldn't lend much support to their golden goose.

 

[LAL]

So Roger Patterson, the Bigfoot hunter and "documentary" film maker, the guy that operated on the belief that Bigfoot was a huge, volatile, unpredictable, aggressive, ninja-like beast- capable of hurling Volkswagens - actually "trained" in getting the camera out of the bag quickly, "just in case"...

Yet didn't bother to to do the same with his rifle, nor even obtain a $2 sling?

It's almost as if he was confident, in the extreme, that only a petite, and tame female would sashay along Bluff Creek?

Fascinating...

Both men were armed. They had an agreement not to shoot unless absolutely necessary. Roger was convinced these were some kind of human and could not be swayed from that POV. They were not out to collect a specimen. They went to California to try to film fresh tracks for the documentary.

Roger fully expected scientists to swoop down on the area. They didn't.

One of his first priorities after the filming was to try to arrange for tracking dogs. What hoaxer would take a chance like that?

 

[LTC8K6]

Why wasn't the "thigh bulge" remarked on by the scientists who viewed the PGF on the big screen in the first place?

With a good copy, and on a big screen, the thigh anomaly would be very obvious.

It's pretty obvious on a crappy little Quicktime or Windows video.

Hill and Napier should certainly have noticed it.

Ivan Sanderson should have said, "What the hell is that on her thigh?"...he was looking very closely at a good version of the PGF with magnification and stopping frames, etc.