Offer to the Truth Movement: Let's Settle It

To call something an avalanche, i suppose there has to be an accumulation
of material/mass?

1. Did such "snowballing" occur as the towers went down?

I hope you don't mind someone else addressing this one first, but the answers to these questions seem fairly straightforward.

The answer to (1) is that something like it must have. We know that the collapse started at a high level, and that the material in the floors below collapse initiation was fragmented. Therefore, whatever the mechanism of collapse, there was a continual accumulation of material as progressively lower floors were added to the falling mass. This isn't the same as what would be normally referred to as "snowballing", because that would imply adhesion of material to the falling mass; however, that's not necessary for the material to accumulate in this instance because it's all moving in the same direction due to gravity.

2. If so, is this any different from the "pancake" explanation?

There are two completely separate things that you might mean by 'the "pancake" explanation', so it would help if you could clarify which you mean. Do you mean:
(a) The pancake initiation theory proposed by FEMA and rejected by NIST, in which the suggested cause of collapse initiation was separation of floor trusses from the support columns, resulting in vertical progression of failure as each floor fell on the one below it and detached it, ultimately removing so much lateral support from the columns that they could no longer resist buckling and so collapsed;
or
(b) Pancake collapse, in which, once the collapse had been initiated, the falling mass progressively destroyed each lower floor as it fell?

(a) was, as we know, rejected by NIST as a possible cause based on the observation of inward bowing of perimeter columns, indicating that the trusses must still have been connected in order to exert a lateral tensile force on the columns. (b) is, however, undisputed as a feature of the collapse following initiation, and indeed is an inevitable feature of top-down collapse, more or less by definition.

If you mean (a), then the answer is yes, it's completely unrelated. If (b), then no, it's more or less the same thing.

3. How was a lot of the debris ejected out and away from the buildings if, at the same time, there was an accumulation of debris?

Very simply, every time the collapse progressed downwards by the height of another floor, it added the material in that height to the falling mass. If the amount of debris ejected in that interval was less than the amount of material added, then there was an accumulation. It's extremely difficult to estimate how much debris was ejected, but note that much of it was in dust clouds, which can be extremely diffuse and yet appear very large.

Another point to note is that collapse propagation doesn't, strictly speaking, require much accumulation of mass. Once the first impact has taken place, if collapse continues, then the kinetic energy available in the second will be greater even if no mass has been added, because the falling block has accelerated. In order for collapse to be arrested at a lower level, the falling mass would have to become smaller, at a faster rate than its downward velocity increased.

Dave
 
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To call something an avalanche, i suppose there has to be an accumulation
of material/mass?

1. Did such "snowballing" occur as the towers went down?

2. If so, is this any different from the "pancake" explanation?

3. How was a lot of the debris ejected out and away from the buildings
if, at the same time, there was an accumulation of debris?

Dave Rogers is on the ball, but I'll give you my own words as well.

I don't call the Towers collapses avalanches, it's just one of the few vaguely similar phenomena in nature. There are some differences. Avalanches are typically material flows of loosely packed materials near their critical angle, with little underlying structure. In the Towers there is considerable structural strength, albeit not nearly enough to oppose the collapse, and relatively large and resilient components as well.

"Snowballing" did happen as the collapse progressed. The weight of the descending mass increases with time. It gets taller, absorbs thicker and more solid materials (such as the core columns, which have thicker sections as you move downward), and gets more densely packed with time.

Not all of it stays in the stack, however. Some falls to the side, some is squeezed over the side, and some will bounce over the side. As the debris layer gets larger, the rate of material loss over the side increases. However, the descending mass is very wide -- 64 meters! -- and accelerating quickly, so not as much is lost over the side as you might think. There just isn't time, and the truly heavy core structure has many meters to travel. So some gets kicked out, but not nearly enough to stop or meaningfully slow the collapse.

"Pancaking" describes a failure mode, not the debris flow. It refers to floors "pancaking" on top of each other, i.e. the floor trusses fail at their connections to the columns. This does not happen at the start of collapse, since we can clearly see the floors exerting an inward pull, but it does happen much later in the collapse, after the descending mass gets moving. After a while it is moving so fast that it basically sweeps the floors off the columns completely, rather than cracking and bowing the floors until the columns buckle. But this is really academic, as by this time the eventual fate of the structure is sealed.
 
The "truth" movement's main argument is that the U.S. Government had unknown parties plant shaped charges in the twin towers, just so they could pass the collapse off as impact damage and fires. If this is not premise of the entire "truth" movement, please explain what is.
 
The premise of the entire truth movement is that the USG and in particular the administration, are the masters of evil. How they committed 9/11 is secondary to their paranoia, really.

That said, they seem to believe that the WTCs were taken down with some mysterious silent steel melting compound never before used in controlled demolition...Thermite. Of course, that is the "planers". The "no planers" seem to believe CGI faked the whole "plane" thing, and Energy Beams from outerspace did the rest (No, I am not kidding).

TAM:)
 
Nearly every claim is contradictory in nature. (NORAD ordered not to shoot down planes, but flight 93 was shot down, etc, etc.) But one of the biggest I have a problem with is the fireproofing. The conspiracy theorists claim that the fireproofing withstood the planes' impacts, thus the steel would've been protected and couldn't have reached critical temperatures. If it were a controlled demolition, the fireproofing would have to have been removed anyway. This is another example of the truthers not thinking things through. I await the truthers' inevitable silence on the topic.
 
Nearly every claim is contradictory in nature. (NORAD ordered not to shoot down planes, but flight 93 was shot down, etc, etc.) But one of the biggest I have a problem with is the fireproofing. The conspiracy theorists claim that the fireproofing withstood the planes' impacts, thus the steel would've been protected and couldn't have reached critical temperatures. If it were a controlled demolition, the fireproofing would have to have been removed anyway. This is another example of the truthers not thinking things through. I await the truthers' inevitable silence on the topic.
Flight 93 was not shot down, but there was no stand down.
 
Yawn!

The premise of the entire truth movement is that the USG and in particular the administration, are the masters of evil. How they committed 9/11 is secondary to their paranoia, really.

That said, they seem to believe that the WTCs were taken down with some mysterious silent steel melting compound never before used in controlled demolition...Thermite. Of course, that is the "planers". The "no planers" seem to believe CGI faked the whole "plane" thing, and Energy Beams from outerspace did the rest (No, I am not kidding).

TAM:)

Who gives a damn who did what?

That nation that put men on the moon can't tell everyone the tons of steel and tons of concrete on every level of skyscrapers designed before the moon landing.

We have high schools that produce graduates that can't think to ask the obvious questions necessary to solve a simple problem involving conservation of momentum.

In only one place in 10,000 pages did the NIST admit what was necessary.

2.4.3 Single Impulse Excitations

Accurate estimation of the tower’s motion during the airplane impact required detailed knowledge of the geometry, weight distribution, and impact velocity of the aircraft, as well as detailed knowledge of the geometry, weight distribution, and structural strength of the tower. At the time of this test series (fall 2003), much of this information was unknown, and the impact motion could only be roughly estimated. To allow this estimate to be made quickly, many simplifying assumptions were made regarding the nature of the impact.
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5D.pdf page 74

So where is the HUMAN READABLE data that they admit is required?

The curious thing is that they only put that statement into a ridiculous report about suspended ceilings. It is also the only report that uses the term "center of mass" in the entire 10,000 pages. The NIST is so good at physics. They think it is so important that the buildings were 70% air by volume.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/cons-flash.html

ROFL

psik
 
Who gives a damn who did what?

...
We have high schools that produce graduates that can't think ...
ROFL

psik
Are you are a terrorist apologist who went to high school that produced graduates who can't think; but you fall for the lies of 9/11 truth and your post does not rise to the level to argue a valid point?

rofl
 
Are you are a terrorist apologist

rofl

And you are a LIAR!

Show a link where I discussed the terrorists. I don't give a damn about them.

I have been talking about the distribution of steel and concrete in the towers. I just provided a link to where the NIST itself said the distribution of weight information was required. They say the south tower deflected by 12 inches as a result of the impact. How can you determine how much kinetic energy went to produce the oscillation without the distribution of mass? How can you determine how much energy caused structural damage without knowing the percentage that went into the oscillation?

I went to high school though and won a National Merit Scholarship.

psik
 
And you are a LIAR!

Show a link where I discussed the terrorists. I don't give a damn about them.

I have been talking about the distribution of steel and concrete in the towers. I just provided a link to where the NIST itself said the distribution of weight information was required. They say the south tower deflected by 12 inches as a result of the impact. How can you determine how much kinetic energy went to produce the oscillation without the distribution of mass? How can you determine how much energy caused structural damage without knowing the percentage that went into the oscillation?

I went to high school though and won a National Merit Scholarship.

psik

If you are saying explosives were used on the WTC, you are a terrorist apologist. What is your end goal; what are your conclusions on 9/11? No big deal, but if you blame other for what the terrorist did on their own, you are not using your Merit Scholarship, you are using your biased; as Einstein said;

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
Your idea seems to based on biased common sense; like an opinion based on your high school knowledge.


175 impacted with 2093 pounds of TNT energy; the damage to the exterior alone only accounts for 1/11 of all the energy available or less.

You are quibbling about the oscillation? Funny, with 11 times the energy the WTC design aircraft impact was for, the oscillation is almost trivial.. Must be like karate. Are you another truth engineer?

Good luck; looking back your posts did not rise to the level of the thread standard argument. Try again with more evidence and facts to make a point.
 
I have been talking about the distribution of steel and concrete in the towers. I just provided a link to where the NIST itself said the distribution of weight information was required. They say the south tower deflected by 12 inches as a result of the impact. How can you determine how much kinetic energy went to produce the oscillation without the distribution of mass? How can you determine how much energy caused structural damage without knowing the percentage that went into the oscillation?

So, are you saying that this point is decisive?

Are you saying that this point is worth digging into because it will demonstrate something truly significant?

(And btw, I do give a damn about the terrorists, just so you know.)
 
And you are a LIAR!

Show a link where I discussed the terrorists. I don't give a damn about them.

I have been talking about the distribution of steel and concrete in the towers. I just provided a link to where the NIST itself said the distribution of weight information was required. They say the south tower deflected by 12 inches as a result of the impact. How can you determine how much kinetic energy went to produce the oscillation without the distribution of mass? How can you determine how much energy caused structural damage without knowing the percentage that went into the oscillation?

I went to high school though and won a National Merit Scholarship.

psik



I don't know. maybe from the blueprints, computer simulation, film and video observation, etc.
If you know how the building was constructed and the materials used in construction, you can get an estimation of the weight distribution.

The WTC towers were designed to deflect with the wind. So there would be some information as to how much wind force would cause a certain amount of deflection in the building. You know the mass and velocity of the plane. all you would need is a bit of math to determine the probable deflection caused by the impact. From there you can then make an estimation as to how much kinetic energy went into causing damage.

Come on, put that National Merit Scholarship education to use.
 
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Smarts

I don't know. maybe from the blueprints, computer simulation, film and video observation, etc.

Come on, put that National Merit Scholarship education to use.

I am not here to prove I am smart.

I am here to show the NIST is stupid.

They claim to be world renowned experts. They took $20,000,000 of taxpayers money and spent 3 years failing to figure out the obvious. They can't tell us the the number and weight of each of the 12 types of perimeter columns. But they can tell us the buildings were 70% air by volume. ROFL That comes to 15 tons of per level by the way. The steel averaged 862 tons per level.

So why is it that only in one place in their 10,000 page report do they tell us that the distribution of weight is required for the analysis and then they don't do it?

This has dragged of for SEVEN YEARS because of the stupidity of AUTHORITY and the people that BELIEVE in Authority no matter how stupid it is.

psik
 
So, are you saying that this point is decisive?

Are you saying that this point is worth digging into because it will demonstrate something truly significant?

Imagine that we had the north tower in its 9/10/01 condition. Suppose we could magically cause levels 90 to 94 inclusive to suddenly disappear. That would leave a 60 foot gap. It would take 2 seconds for those 16 stories left in the air to fall and impact the remaining intact 89 levels at 44 mph.

Now a computer simulation of that should actually be easier than a fire simulation. But the total elimination of 5 levels would be more damage than the plane and fire could possibly have done. Now all skyscrapers must get heavier and stronger as you go down so the distribution of steel and concrete would be necessary data in such a computer simulation.

Now if an accurate simulation demonstrated that the building would not collapse but leave at least, say 40 stories still standing, then what would that say about this airliner supposedly bringing the entire building down?

I have already demonstrated that changing the mass and it distribution alters the behavior of a vertical flexible structure due to horizontal forces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kUICwO93Q

The problem with building a small model that involves breakage is that objects get stronger in relation to their mass as they get smaller so a small but accurate model of the WTC collapse may be impossible, though I am currently experimenting with toothpicks.

psik
 
If you are saying explosives were used on the WTC, you are a terrorist apologist.
And you are a propagandist trying to play on psychological *****.
Edited by chillzero: 
Edited for Rule 10


The mass of steel and concrete is relevant to the physics, emotional crap is not.

psik
 
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Psik, please use rational arguments instead of abuse and obscenity. Reported, by the way.
 
Psik, please use rational arguments instead of abuse and obscenity. Reported, by the way.


So you mean calling someone a "Terrorist Apologist" isn't abuse and is a "rational" argument.

ROFLMAO

I'm so worried about being reported.

psik
 
Has "it" been settled?

In the minds of people that can't figure out the obvious questions to ask. Or who insist that the obviously important information isn't important.

Didn't they have to figure out how strong every level of the Empire State Building had to be to support the mass above it? So didn't they have to figure out the weight of steel to put on that level and thus what had to be supported by level below? But they didn't even have tube computers much less transistors and integrated circuits.

It is starting to get hysterically funny that the nation that put men on the moon can pretend that the tons of steel and concrete on every level of a skyscraper are unimportant even though it supposedly underwent a gravitational collapse triggered by an airplane collision.

Conservation of momentum calculations are so complicated. Our computers just can't handle them.

http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1058903#p1058903

psik
 
I am not here to prove I am smart.

I am here to show the NIST is stupid.

They claim to be world renowned experts. They took $20,000,000 of taxpayers money and spent 3 years failing to figure out the obvious. They can't tell us the the number and weight of each of the 12 types of perimeter columns. But they can tell us the buildings were 70% air by volume. ROFL That comes to 15 tons of per level by the way. The steel averaged 862 tons per level.

So why is it that only in one place in their 10,000 page report do they tell us that the distribution of weight is required for the analysis and then they don't do it?

This has dragged of for SEVEN YEARS because of the stupidity of AUTHORITY and the people that BELIEVE in Authority no matter how stupid it is.

psik

I guess you missed the section in the report where they mentioned the structural databases. http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-2A.pdf (page 29 of the PDF.)

The information you are looking for just might be in that data base. Do a FOIA to NIST for the databases.
 

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