Merged Was Hani Hanjour really inexperienced?

[chillzero]

Nope, I am not claiming that at all. Don't misrepresent my position.

Then I don't follow your 'logic'.

You agree he could have hit a building.
The Pentagon is a building (and a huge one at that).
How do you derive from this that he could not have hit the Pentagon, being that it is, in fact, a building?

You post nothing but nonsense.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

please address 403

She addressed it the first several times you brought it up. Is there not some kind of TOS issue with repeating the same arguments over and over and lying about them being addressed?

 

[radical_logic]

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. Read the quote and stop lying. The quote does not say he was a bad pilot, the quote says his English skills were poor. I am sorry, but you are doing nothing but outright lying now.

You are so dumb.

"[Managers] reported him not because they feared he was a terrorist, but because his English and flying skills were so bad, they told the Associated Press, they didn't think he should keep his pilot's license…I couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had,’ said Peggy Chevrette, the manager for the now-defunct JetTech flight school in Phoenix. "

 

[radical_logic]

Then I don't follow your 'logic'.

You agree he could have hit a building.
The Pentagon is a building (and a huge one at that).
How do you derive from this that he could not have hit the Pentagon, being that it is, in fact, a building?

You talk nothing but nonsense.

That he could hit "a building" does not imply that he could hit "any building."

Please address 403.

 

[chillzero]

That he could hit "a building" does not imply that he could hit "any building."

Why not?
It does in everyone else's universe here.

Please address 403.

Done repeatedly, as already pointed out, repeatedly.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

You are so dumb.

"[Managers] reported him not because they feared he was a terrorist, but because his English and flying skills were so bad, they told the Associated Press, they didn't think he should keep his pilot's license…I couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had,’ said Peggy Chevrette, the manager for the now-defunct JetTech flight school in Phoenix. "

So now I know what it's like arguing with a grapefruit.

Now please tell us who that quote is from. Give us the name of that person you are quoting.

And how convenient of you to edit Peggy's quote where she specifies WHY she felt she couldn't believe he had a lisc. Her reason was HIS ENGLISH SKILLs.

Please stop lying grapefruit.

 

[radical_logic]

Why not?

Because it doesn't logically follow.

It does in everyone else's universe here.

Hence everyone else here is illogical.

Done repeatedly, as already pointed out, repeatedly.

No, you have not. Let's start with this one.

You claimed that there was a flaw in my argument. Well, what is it? Which inference do you deny? Which premise is false?

If ~A is true, and if the 77-dive could only be performed by a highly skilled pilot, then it follows that Hanjour did not fly 77 into the Pentagon.

Again, what is the flaw in this argument?

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Because it doesn't logically follow.



Hence everyone else here is illogical.




No, you have not. Let's start with this one.

You claimed that there was a flaw in my argument. Well, what is it? Which inference do you deny? Which premise is false?

If ~A is true, and if the 77-dive could only be performed by a highly skilled pilot, then it follows that Hanjour did not fly 77 into the Pentagon.

Again, what is the flaw in this argument?

 

[chillzero]

Because it doesn't logically follow.



Hence everyone else here is illogical.

Well then.

Have fun in your universe.

 

[radical_logic]

So now I know what it's like arguing with a grapefruit.

Now please tell us who that quote is from. Give us the name of that person you are quoting.

And how convenient of you to edit Peggy's quote where she specifies WHY she felt she couldn't believe he had a lisc. Her reason was HIS ENGLISH SKILLs.

Please stop lying grapefruit.

The managers of the Arizona Flight School reported Hanjour because they thought his pilot skills were bad. Peggy Chevrette was a manager of the Arizona Flight School. Therefore, it follows that Peggy reported Hanjour because she thought his pilot skills were bad.

 

[radical_logic]

Well then.

Have fun in your universe.

I do, it's quite radical.

But let's back to your dodge.

You claimed that there was a flaw in my argument. Well, what is it? Which inference do you deny? Which premise is false?

If ~A is true, and if the 77-dive could only be performed by a highly skilled pilot, then it follows that Hanjour did not fly 77 into the Pentagon.

Again, what is the flaw in this argument?

 

[chillzero]

And round and round we go and do-si-do.

 

[radical_logic]

Why the dodge? Why won't you address my argument head on like a rational debunker?


You claimed that there was a flaw in my argument. Well, what is it? Which inference do you deny? Which premise is false?

If ~A is true, and if the 77-dive could only be performed by a highly skilled pilot, then it follows that Hanjour did not fly 77 into the Pentagon.

Again, what is the flaw in this argument?

 

[chillzero]

No dodge - just not repeating myself again.

I'm not arguing with you any longer. Everything has been laid out clearly in this thread for rational onlookers. You aren't worth the repetition.

 

[stateofgrace]

I do, it's quite radical.

But let's back to your dodge.

You claimed that there was a flaw in my argument. Well, what is it? Which inference do you deny? Which premise is false?

If ~A is true, and if the 77-dive could only be performed by a highly skilled pilot, then it follows that Hanjour did not fly 77 into the Pentagon.

Again, what is the flaw in this argument?

So, the turn/dive could only have been made by a highly skilled pilot,right?

 

[TjW]

I'm not an expert, so I could not explain why that dive is difficult. But the quotes I cited clearly indicate that experts do think that that dive is difficult. See post 42 for those quotes.

You see, the problem is, I'm a pilot. I've looked at the flight path. It's entirely consistent with someone who doesn't like steep bank angles.

I've actually seen that behavior, first hand, from power pilot friends newly introduced to soaring, who are uncomfortable with the higher bank turns needed to stay in a thermal.

They know, intellectually, that they need to stay steep. But they don't, and then catch themselves... it makes for a very sloppy turn.
That was a very sloppy turn.

Strategically, a good pilot would not have needed that turn. He'd just have calculated a letdown point and started his descent from there. A straight-in approach gives the maximum time to line up.

If the requirements were to hit a particular wall of the Pentagon, it's more sensible to do the bulk of that maneuvering far away, and then fly a straight-in approach. If the flight is being remote-controlled by a government conspiracy, all these considerations apply in spades. For that matter, if it's a government conspiracy, why not take the time to make another approach? It's not like anyone's going to shoot you down. The military would be in on it.

So. Hanjour finds himself too high, and decides to make a 270 to lose altitude. Not an unreasonable decision. A "heavy" standard rate turn will complete a 270 in about 3 minutes. At higher speeds, though, it's going to be a higher bank than he's used to. Partway through the turn, he realizes he's going to be wide, and increases the bank -- but only to about 45 degrees, and it doesn't stay there. I've seen this before. Due to the futzing around, he has to fly more of a circle to line up.

So, I'm hard-pressed to see either great piloting or even an unusual response to a strange situation. (I'm pretty sure Hanjour hadn't previously done a standard rate turn at those speeds. Standard rate turns aren't needed in cruise, and approaches, which tend to use standard rate turns, are usually flown much slower.)

 

[Jonnyclueless]

The managers of the Arizona Flight School reported Hanjour because they thought his pilot skills were bad. Peggy Chevrette was a manager of the Arizona Flight School. Therefore, it follows that Peggy reported Hanjour because she thought his pilot skills were bad.

No, she thought his english skills were bad and that was her reason that she couldn't believe he had a lisc. I am asking you to show the name of the person you quoted as saying his english AND piloting skills were bad. It was NOT Peggy as you keep trying to lead people to believe. You keep putting two different quotes from two different people together to mislead people into thinking they are coming from the same person. That constitutes lying.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

You see, the problem is, I'm a pilot. I've looked at the flight path. It's entirely consistent with someone who doesn't like steep bank angles.

I've actually seen that behavior, first hand, from power pilot friends newly introduced to soaring, who are uncomfortable with the higher bank turns needed to stay in a thermal.

They know, intellectually, that they need to stay steep. But they don't, and then catch themselves... it makes for a very sloppy turn.
That was a very sloppy turn.

Strategically, a good pilot would not have needed that turn. He'd just have calculated a letdown point and started his descent from there. A straight-in approach gives the maximum time to line up.

If the requirements were to hit a particular wall of the Pentagon, it's more sensible to do the bulk of that maneuvering far away, and then fly a straight-in approach. If the flight is being remote-controlled by a government conspiracy, all these considerations apply in spades. For that matter, if it's a government conspiracy, why not take the time to make another approach? It's not like anyone's going to shoot you down. The military would be in on it.

So. Hanjour finds himself too high, and decides to make a 270 to lose altitude. Not an unreasonable decision. A "heavy" standard rate turn will complete a 270 in about 3 minutes. At higher speeds, though, it's going to be a higher bank than he's used to. Partway through the turn, he realizes he's going to be wide, and increases the bank -- but only to about 45 degrees, and it doesn't stay there. I've seen this before. Due to the futzing around, he has to fly more of a circle to line up.

So, I'm hard-pressed to see either great piloting or even an unusual response to a strange situation. (I'm pretty sure Hanjour hadn't previously done a standard rate turn at those speeds. Standard rate turns aren't needed in cruise, and approaches, which tend to use standard rate turns, are usually flown much slower.)

If you are an expert, then Radical Logic (lol) won't be able to see your post.

 

[beachnut]

I do, it's quite radical.

But let's back to your dodge.

You claimed that there was a flaw in my argument. Well, what is it? Which inference do you deny? Which premise is false?

If ~A is true, and if the 77-dive could only be performed by a highly skilled pilot, then it follows that Hanjour did not fly 77 into the Pentagon.

Again, what is the flaw in this argument?

Wow what a dive! Gee, at 34 minutes after the hour on 9/11 Hani took his jet from 8255 feet, to 2465 feet at 37 past the hour! A terrible rate of 2000 feet per minute. Wow. Not a great feat, your ideas are busted; you failed because you have no knowledge on flying.

The fantastic turn took 3 minutes. 320 degree turn took 3 minutes. Yet the standard rate turn would be 360 degrees in 2 minutes. So the turn was less than standard, not a turn showing expert flying, a turn less than standard. This busts your only an expert pilot can do what Hani did, it turns out any less than standard pilot can do what Hani did. This debunks you with math; I found 9/11 truth does not use math because they can’t. If you need help, ask.

 

[jaydeehess]

Once again, "a building" does not mean "the Pentagon building." You keep asserting he means this without any argument.

He said "a building" and the Pentagon is the one of the widest buildings in the entire world. So if Bernard says that Hanjour could hit a building then it stands to reason that he was in no way refering specifically to a structure larger than the building that Hanjour indeed di fly into, the Pentagon.

Your childish attempt to minimize this statement is duly noted by all.