Merged Was Hani Hanjour really inexperienced?

[jaydeehess]

Who are you replying to, me? If so I was actually agreeing with you that a 1g turn isn't exactly a fighter like manoeuvre because they (fighter jets) are designed to pull a constant 9g in turns, if Flight 77 pulled a 9g turn then fair enough that would be a valid description/comparison. I mentioned the quote from Danielle O'Brien at Dulles ATC because that's where, as far as I'm aware, the fighter jet manoeuvre conspiracy theory originated, they deliberately quoted her out-of-context.

I was merely adding to the observation, not taking issue with anything you posted, Spins.
A CT will not allow that the quote means anything other than a high g turn even once shown that the math illustrates that it was not.


print-only discourse causes emotive disconnects, sorry.

 

[radical_logic]

9/11 Contradictions: Part 1 - The Hanjour Mystery

This is the first in a series of posts where I detail the many contradictions in the official story. Do not bother posting in this thread if you're going to attack me personally, not address the substance of my post, or are on my ignore list (i.e. Arus808, Rwquinn, Beachnut, and Bobert).
.



Consider the following quotes:

[J]ust as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west…Aviation sources said the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm.

[1]

Whoever flew at least three of the death planes seemed very skilled. Investigators are impressed that they were schooled enough to turn off flight transponders -- which provide tower control with flight ID, altitude and location. Investigators are particularly impressed with the pilot who slammed into the Pentagon and, just before impact, performed a tightly banked 270-degree turn at low altitude with almost military precision.

[2]

The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it's clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed.

[3]

The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane," says [Danielle] O'Brien.

[4]

The maneuver at the Pentagon was just a tight spiral coming down out of 7,000 feet. And a commercial aircraft, while they can in fact structurally somewhat handle that maneuver, they are very, very, very difficult. And it would take considerable training… And while they are structurally capable of doing them, it takes some very, very talented pilots to do that.

[5]

Hence, from the above, we can derive:
A. Hani Hanjour, the pilot alleged to have flown flight 77 into the pentagon, was a highly skilled pilot.

Now consider the following quotes:

Freeway Airport evaluated suspected hijacker Hani Hanjour when he attempted to rent a plane. He took three flights with the instructors in the second week of August, but flew so poorly he was rejected for the rental, said Marcel Bernard, chief flight instructor at Freeway.

[6]

Marcel Bernard, the airport manager and chief flight instructor, told FBI agents investigating last week's suicide attacks that one of their suspects in case, Hani Hanjour, had flown with flight instructors on three occasions over the last six weeks…His flying skills were so poor overall that [instructors] declined to rent a plane to him without future training,’ Bernard said of Hanjour.

[7]

Mr. Hanjour, who investigators contend piloted the airliner that crashed into the Pentagon, was reported to the aviation agency in February 2001 after instructors at his flight school in Phoenix had found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot's license was genuine.

[8]

Ms. Ladner… feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner.

[9]

A former employee of the school said that the staff initially made good-faith efforts to help Mr. Hanjour and that he received individual instruction for a few days. But he was a poor student. On one written problem that usually takes 20 minutes to complete, Mr. Hanjour took three hours, the former employee said, and he answered incorrectly.

[10]

Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot…I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,'' the former employee said. ''He could not fly at all.

[11]

[Managers] reported him not because they feared he was a terrorist, but because his English and flying skills were so bad, they told the Associated Press, they didn't think he should keep his pilot's license…I couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had,’ said Peggy Chevrette, the manager for the now-defunct JetTech flight school in Phoenix.

[12]

Hence, from the above, we can derive:
~A. Hani Hanjour, the pilot alleged to have flown flight 77 into the pentagon, was a terrible pilot.

Contradiction: (A ^~A)



[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14365-2001Sep11
[2] http://www.detnews.com/2001/nation/0109/13/a03-293072.htm

[3] http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/11/national/main310721.shtml
[4] http://911review.com/cache/errors/pentagon/abcnews102401b.html
[5] http://patriotsquestion911.com/#Muga

[6] http://www.newsline.umd.edu/justice/specialreports/stateofemergency/airportlosses091901.htm
[7] http://web.archive.org/web/20030908034933/http://www.gazette.net/200138/greenbelt/news/72196-1.html
[8] http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D00E0DC1E31F937A35756C0A9649C8B63
[9] Ibid.
[10] Ibid.
[11] Ibid.
[12] http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/10/attack/main508656.shtml

 

[PhantomWolf]

Can someone check Radical's calendar please, I swear he's lost half the 8.

 

[twinstead]

It’s frequently claimed that the 9/11 attacks required more flying experience than the alleged hijackers possessed, and therefore they couldn’t have been controlling the planes. Giulio Bernacchia takes a different view, though, and as an experienced pilot (air force, then airline Captain), simulator instructor and examiner, it’s perhaps worth listening to what he has to say.

http://www.911myths.com/Another_Expert.pdf

I guess it all depends on who ones 'experts' are.

 

[twinstead]

Oh, and there's these guys: http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/05/19/askthepilot186/

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Radical, do a search on the forum first. All of those completely untrue statements have been thoroughly debunked many years ago. The problem are your "sources". "sources" say that Santa Claus is real too. But what you really mean by "sources" is Pilots For Twoof, a known 9/11 conspiracy cult.

Simply taking quotes form reliable sources them and putting them into a collage to create false information is about as dishonest as a crackpot can get.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Twin, if Radical was truely interested in reality he'd have used the search feature, this topic has been done to death and beyond in the past 5 years, there are probably more threads on it that hot suppers on the Titanic, it won't make the slightist difference to him.

 

[CHF]

Isn't "Pilots for Truth" run by a guy who sued his former airline cuz he thought there were explosives planted on all passenger jets?

 

[Mince]

Yeah, well, you know, if I'm going to condemn, indict and convict several people of heinous mass murder, I think I'll do it on the basis of empirical evidence, not speculation, personal incredulity, YouTube videos and Google searches.

Thanks for the OP, anyway...I guess.

 

[Mince]

Isn't "Pilots for Truth" run by a guy who sued his former airline cuz he thought there were explosives planted on all passenger jets?

Uh huh. And you've yet to definitively prove that there are not explosives planted on all passenger jets.

 

[lapman]

Ms. Ladner… feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner.

Turned out that this one was 100% correct.

I see a whole lot of straw grasping in the OP. All of us real pilots know that it's all a bunch of garbage. The conspiracy liars claim that a commercial rated pilot could fly a large, stable aircraft into a huge building while some kids, with as little as 200 hours of training, could fly incredibly unstable fighters into a moving ship through a barrage of flak and AAA fire.

 

[twinstead]

Twin, if Radical was truely interested in reality he'd have used the search feature, this topic has been done to death and beyond in the past 5 years, there are probably more threads on it that hot suppers on the Titanic, it won't make the slightist difference to him.

Yea, I know, but the whole smugness of the OP, posted as if we'd never heard of this stuff, just got to me. I say bring on volume 2, maybe it's actually something that hasn't been done to death.

 

[The Big Dog]

R-L COMMANDS:

"This is the first in a series of posts where I detail the many contradictions in the official story. Do not bother posting in this thread if you're going to attack me personally, not address the substance of my post, or are on my ignore list (i.e. Arus808, Rwquinn, Beachnut, and Bobert)."

So it has been ordered so it shall be DONE!

Anyhow, folks, lets shut this one down quick:

Hey, R-L use the search feature:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2830591#post2830591

Read and Learn.

 

[WildCat]

Can someone check Radical's calendar please, I swear he's lost half the 8.

Haven't you heard?

 

[radical_logic]

Predictably, I recieved almost nothing but "mere assertions" in response to my OP. Where are the rebuttals demonstrating the falsity of any of the quotes I cited? Be specific.

 

[Pardalis]

Investigators are particularly impressed with the pilot who slammed into the Pentagon and, just before impact, performed a tightly banked 270-degree turn at low altitude with almost military precision.

If you read right after:

Q: Where would they get these skills?
A:Boeing and Airbus both sell flight simulators and there are several training schools on the East Coast. You can qualify for a 757 or 767 for about $15,000. Investigators think a south Florida school may have inadvertently trained one terrorist pilot, and other simulator locations are being checked.

Which is exactly what they did, didn't they?

 

[radical_logic]

Nothing in that quote resolves the contradiction. It's still the case that Hanjour, who many attest was a terrible pilot, made a maneuver that experts say only a highly trained pilot could pull off.

 

[radical_logic]

It requires 250 hours to obtain a commercial pilot license I believe and Hanjour had both a private and commercial piloting license and was the most experienced out of all of the 9/11 hijackers.

From Debunking 9/11 Myths:
"Hani Hanjour: The most experienced pilot of the four and the only Saudi, Hanjour, 29, obtained his private Pilot's license and commercial pilot's license in Arizona in 1999 before returning to the Middle East. He was recruited for the plot when Al Qaeda leaders learned he was a pilot. When Hanjour returned to Arizona in late 2000, he entered refresher training and Boeing 737 simulator training."

"Truthers" often misrepresent how experienced the 9/11 hijacker pilots really were and try to push them off as awful pilots who couldn't fly at all.

No misrepresentation at all. Consder:

Freeway Airport evaluated suspected hijacker Hani Hanjour when he attempted to rent a plane. He took three flights with the instructors in the second week of August, but flew so poorly he was rejected for the rental, said Marcel Bernard, chief flight instructor at Freeway.

http://www.newsline.umd.edu/justice/specialreports/stateofemergency/airportlosses091901.htm

Marcel Bernard, the airport manager and chief flight instructor, told FBI agents investigating last week's suicide attacks that one of their suspects in case, Hani Hanjour, had flown with flight instructors on three occasions over the last six weeks…’His flying skills were so poor overall that [instructors] declined to rent a plane to him without future training,’ Bernard said of Hanjour.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030908034933/http://www.gazette.net/200138/greenbelt/news/72196-1.html

Mr. Hanjour, who investigators contend piloted the airliner that crashed into the Pentagon, was reported to the aviation agency in February 2001 after instructors at his flight school in Phoenix had found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot's license was genuine.

Ms. Ladner… feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner.

A former employee of the school said that the staff initially made good-faith efforts to help Mr. Hanjour and that he received individual instruction for a few days. But he was a poor student. On one written problem that usually takes 20 minutes to complete, Mr. Hanjour took three hours, the former employee said, and he answered incorrectly.

Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot…'I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,'' the former employee said. ''He could not fly at all.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D00E0DC1E31F937A35756C0A9649C8B63

[Managers] reported him not because they feared he was a terrorist, but because his English and flying skills were so bad, they told the Associated Press, they didn't think he should keep his pilot's license… ‘I couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had,’ said Peggy Chevrette, the manager for the now-defunct JetTech flight school in Phoenix.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/10/attack/main508656.shtml

 

[Pardalis]

Is this going to be another thread where you repeat the same things over and over and over again?

 

[radical_logic]

If Hanjour actually had 600 hrs of flying time in anything he would have been very easily capable of doing what he did.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how your assertion squares with the following claims:

"Freeway Airport evaluated suspected hijacker Hani Hanjour when he attempted to rent a plane. He took three flights with the instructors in the second week of August, but flew so poorly he was rejected for the rental, said Marcel Bernard, chief flight instructor at Freeway."

http://www.newsline.umd.edu/justice/...sses091901.htm


"Marcel Bernard, the airport manager and chief flight instructor, told FBI agents investigating last week's suicide attacks that one of their suspects in case, Hani Hanjour, had flown with flight instructors on three occasions over the last six weeks…’His flying skills were so poor overall that [instructors] declined to rent a plane to him without future training,’ Bernard said of Hanjour."

http://web.archive.org/web/200309080...s/72196-1.html


"Mr. Hanjour, who investigators contend piloted the airliner that crashed into the Pentagon, was reported to the aviation agency in February 2001 after instructors at his flight school in Phoenix had found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot's license was genuine. "

"Ms. Ladner… feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner.


"A former employee of the school said that the staff initially made good-faith efforts to help Mr. Hanjour and that he received individual instruction for a few days. But he was a poor student. On one written problem that usually takes 20 minutes to complete, Mr. Hanjour took three hours, the former employee said, and he answered incorrectly.

"Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot…'I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,'' the former employee said. ''He could not fly at all.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...56C0A9649C8B63


"[Managers] reported him not because they feared he was a terrorist, but because his English and flying skills were so bad, they told the Associated Press, they didn't think he should keep his pilot's license… ‘I couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had,’ said Peggy Chevrette, the manager for the now-defunct JetTech flight school in Phoenix. "
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in508656.shtml