Do Most Atheists Know that science..... Part 2

[Foster Zygote]

I believe his "point," though he scrupulously avoids stating it, is that science makes some incredible claims. He thinks it's unfair that people accept the incredible claims which science makes (i.e., all life has a common origin), while ridiculing the incredible claims made by his favorite religious book (i.e., "day" and "night" and "okra" existed before "sun" and "moon" and "stars"). He seems steadfastly oblivious to the notion of "evidence" as a possible justification for accepting one set of incredible claims while rejecting another. His PFA "90%" statistic, and request for others to add their own PFA stats to this thread suggest that, in his mind, guesses are just as good as any other kind of evidence.

That's pretty much what I figured too. Argument from ignorance blended with argument from personal incredulity and a tu quoque fallacy spooned on top.

 

[Foster Zygote]

...and 2=3, for sufficiently large values of 2...

Does finding that to be very funny indicate that I'm a geek?

 

[DOC]

Genesis 1:1a - the universe came first

Genesis 1:1b - then the earth

Gen 1:10 - then land and sea

Gen 1:21 - then life in the sea

Gen 1;24-25 - then land animals

Gen 1:27 - lastly humans

So, it's your opinion that the bible got the general picture right, but the devil is in the details?...

No, I would assume that is your opinion.

 

[joobz]

No, I would assume that is your opinion.

Then, of course, you contradict yourself.
The broad stroke points (as you outline them) would seem to agree with what we see. However, if we look at the individual points, we see glaring, blatant contradictions to the reality.

And you have had to make some rather HUGE logical leaps to claim that there aren't contradictions.
For instance, How do you explain the earth being created before the sun? And what about the Fruit bearing trees?

 

[FireGarden]

Where did the light come from that God made on Day 1 (Genesis 1 verse 4 and 5)?

For light without stars, look up the microwave background radiation,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation


Genesis says that the heavens and the earth (and deep water) were made before light.

Genesis 1:1a - the universe came first

Genesis 1:1b - then the earth

Gen 1:10 - then land and sea

Gen 1:21 - then life in the sea

Gen 1;24-25 - then land animals

Gen 1:27 - lastly humans

You forgot to mention the fruit bearing trees. Where are they in the sequence given by Genesis? Where does science put them?

 

[Lothian]

God could have made stars on Day 1, Day 4, Day 782, Day 1,619, and as we speak. In fact here is a site that says stars are being churned our at a furious pace.

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=14309

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

The stars were made on day 4. Do you not know the bible ?

 

[DOC]

Where did the light come from that God made on Day 1 (Genesis 1 verse 4 and 5)?

For light without stars, look up the microwave background radiation,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation


Genesis says that the heavens and the earth (and deep water) were made before light.

A lot depends on one's definition of heaven. It could mean a lot of things in the context it was used in.

And it looks like no one was willing to estimate how many Americans know that science theorizes there wasn't any "space" before the Big Bang. I said 99% before. I've changed that to around 95%.

 

[Hokulele]

And it looks like no one was willing to estimate how many Americans know that science theorizes there wasn't any "space" before the Big Bang. I said 99% before. I've changed that to around 95%.

The majority of posters here prefer not to make stuff up, but rather rely on statistics gathered in a reliable, scientific manner. WAG's are entertaining, but unenlightening.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Genesis did not give all the knowledge about the universe to the illiterate desert wanderers -- just some.

Why didn't he teach them? I understand he was still speaking directly to mortals back then.

Or just put the knowledge into their minds? He's GOD. He can do anything.

I mean, you seem to be saying that for some reason it was important to God that people understood where everything came from. Why didn't he show them somehow?

And if they were "illiterate desert wanderers" who was writing all this stuff down?

 

[FireGarden]

A lot depends on one's definition of heaven. It could mean a lot of things in the context it was used in.

And what's your definition of Earth and water?

And it looks like no one was willing to estimate how many Americans know that science theorizes there wasn't any "space" before the Big Bang. I said 99% before. I've changed that to around 95%.

Why did you change your mind? Did you find that 95% of replies to this thread indicated the required ignorance? I'd like to see your summary of the data for that.

But I suspect you did not tabulate replies. I suspect you are simply guessing.

Why not start a poll? -- either here or in the science forum. You'll probably get some quibbling on the wording. For one thing, what does "before the big bang" mean? Space and time expand from what looks like a single point in the Big Bang. The two are normally treated as one thing: spacetime.

The current theory doesn't have a reference for anything outside our spacetime. The old analogy is having a map of the surface of the Earth -- and only the surface of the Earth. Everything is 2-dimensional on such a map. You have North/South and East/West. You cannot ask what is North of the North pole because (the way "North" is defined) there is no North of the North pole.

There was a Doctor Who story where this is referenced. Some bad guy (the devil?) claims to have existed since before the Universe was created. The Doctor asks "What does before time even mean?" and compares it to outside the universe. But they are two different things. The Moon is not on the map of the Earth I described above. And that has absolutely nothing to do with any claim that it is north of the north pole. Such a claim is absurd. North is a particular direction on our map and has no meaning outside the map.

The tough thing to do is to go from the 2D analogy to a 4D example. Unlike our experience of things not on the surface of the Earth, we have no experience of anything outside our space time.

btw,
If you don't know how to start a poll, you can ask me to do it for you.

 

[Marcus]

It doesn't matter how many excuses you make, Genesis clearly contradicts science. Your attempts to change the meanings don't make your belief any less wrong.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

And it looks like no one was willing to estimate how many Americans know that science theorizes there wasn't any "space" before the Big Bang. I said 99% before. I've changed that to around 95%.

Estimate among Americans who understand the actual theory: 0%

Estimate among Americans who learned the "theory" from scientific ignoramuses with a religious agenda: 100%

 

[DOC]

Sure, the inflationary theory of cosmology states that vacuum fluctuations resulted in a gravitational singularity. This is essentially a point of zero volume containing all of the mass and energy we see in the current universe. Since the volume was zero, density was infinite and spacetime essentially did not exist yet. General relativity indicates other values at infinity in this singularity as well, but most people are most aware of the density value. Just after t=0, known as the Inflationary Period, elementary particles began to separate out. Less than a second later, the fundamental forces separated as well.

One of the reasons it is known as inflationary cosmology is that the Big Bang wasn't an explosion, at least not the type one normally thinks of. It is an expansion, separation, and cooling. Once things have cooled enough to allow for "normal" matter, the four fundamental forces, particularly gravity, take over and, ta-da!, here we are almost 14 billion years later.

To Hokulele, above is your statement about the creation of the universe -- your scientific genesis, I guess you could say -- that I brought into the first post of this thread. I bolded the part where you talked about mass and energy. Then you said density was infinite, and timespace essentially did not exist yet. Can you explain how this non-existent timespace that was contained in something smaller than an atom became all the "space" that makes up the 100 billion galaxies in the known universe. If you don't know, then feel free to say so.

 

[Hokulele]

To Hokulele, above is your statement about the creation of the universe -- your scientific genesis, I guess you could say -- that I brought into the first post of this thread. I bolded the part where you talked about mass and energy. Then you said density was infinite, and timespace essentially did not exist yet. Can you explain how this non-existent timespace that was contained in something smaller than an atom became all the "space" that makes up the 100 billion galaxies in the know universe. If you don't know, then feel free to say so.

This is not the place for a scientific discussion. If you are truly interested in cosmology, and the extent of what is and is not known, either pick up one of the books that have been recommended to you (volatile's suggestion is excellent), or start a thread over in Science, Medicine, Mathematics, and Technology.

If you are simply trying to set up some weird form of a "gotcha", please refer to the recent excellent posts by bokonon, Lothian, and Ryan O'Dine.

 

[DOC]

This is not the place for a scientific discussion. If you are truly interested in cosmology, and the extent of what is and is not known, either pick up one of the books that have been recommended to you (volatile's suggestion is excellent), or start a thread over in Science, Medicine, Mathematics, and Technology.

If you are simply trying to set up some weird form of a "gotcha", please refer to the recent excellent posts by bokonon, Lothian, and Ryan O'Dine.

Well you had no problem discussing science in part one of this thread. That is where I got your quote. This is not about "gotcha" this is just asking a question. If you don't know how all the "space" in the known universe came about from something smaller than an atom just be honest and say you don't know. There is no shame in that, there are a lot of things science doesn't know, just like there are some things in Genesis that are difficult to understand or explain.

 

[Hokulele]

Well you had no problem discussing science in part one of this thread. That is where I got your quote.

Sure, that was a extremely condensed summary in response to a single question. Now you seem to want to discuss the various theories more in depth.

Science sub-forum, thataway. ----->

This is not about "gotcha" this is just asking a question. If you don't know how all the "space" in the known universe came about from something smaller than an atom just be honest and say you don't know. There is no shame in that, there are a lot of things science doesn't know, just like there are some things in Genesis that are difficult to understand or explain.

There is a big difference between devising experiments to test new theories and forcing interpretations on ambiguous texts. There is also a big difference between "science doesn't know", and "science cannot know". Seriously, re-read Lothian's post as he/she describes the difference between trusting scientific information and trusting nonsense.

 

[DOC]

Sure, that was a extremely condensed summary in response to a single question. Now you seem to want to discuss the various theories more in depth.

Science sub-forum, thataway. ----->




There is a big difference between devising experiments to test new theories and forcing interpretations on ambiguous texts. There is also a big difference between "science doesn't know", and "science cannot know". Seriously, re-read Lothian's post as he/she describes the difference between trusting scientific information and trusting nonsense.

I get the impression that you and science does not know how all the "space" in 100 billion galaxies came from something smaller than an atom. If I'm wrong can you direct me to a website that can explain how all this space came about.

 

[Hokulele]

Hmm, after thinking on this a bit more, I would like to try and explain this a different way.

Let's pretend that joobz asked me if I know the current population of Bangladesh. I don't, but I know how to find the answer. I can look up the answer in the World Book Encyclopedia, but how do I know that answer is correct? The best way would be to review other sources, including those from experts on Bangladesh, and work my way to a figure that best matches the reliable sources.

The next thing I would have to do is determine what makes a good source. I can check other answers in the World Book Encyclopedia on topics for which I already have sound knowledge, and see how accurate those are. This will enhance my trust in the source.

To take this back to the discussion of the Big Bang, one of the strengths of the theory is how many different sources agree on various aspects of the theory. In addition, there is a vast amount of evidence pointing towards the theory being correct (see Ryan O'Dine's link). In addition, I can use the same equations that support the Big Bang to test other known conditions, such as calculating planetary orbits, to enhance my confidence in the accuracy of those equations.

The same cannot be said of the idea that the Christian god created the universe. There is only one source, the bible, and that source has proven to be woefully incomplete, and in many cases, horrendously inaccurate. Bats are birds? Who knew!

Why on earth would I trust that?

 

[Hokulele]

I get the impression that you and science does not know how all the "space" in 100 billion galaxies came from something smaller than an atom.

Considering that you have very strange impressions on a wide variety of topics, I doubt I will lose any sleep over your accusation here.

(And hey, this thread isn't about me! )

If I'm wrong can you direct me to a website that can explain how all this space came about.

Sure, Science sub-forum, thataway. ------>

If you cannot find it on your own, I can link it for you.

Post your question, and make sure you take the time to read the answers. You may also want to send a PM to wollery and provide the link to the thread, as I am sure he would have quite a bit to add to the discussion.

 

[cyborg]

why on earth would i trust that?

Free wafers!