Hurricanes + Offshore Wind Farms

[Viper Daimao]

What happens when we build the offshore wind farms and a hurricane hits them? Would they have to be evacuated/shutdown ala oil platforms or could they withstand the hurricane and provide a huge bonanza of energy?

Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

 

[Cuddles]

Wind turbines have to be shut down in any strong winds. The exact windspeed a turbine can withstand will obviously depend on various details of design and so on, but I don't know of any that would even come close to taking hurricane force winds. This is why wind power really can't be the answer to all power generation - the places that have enough wind to be reliable tend to have far too much wind, and end up with as much down time as places with less wind.

I assume wind farms wouldn't need evacuating, since they don't usually need anyone to sit there while they're running, but they would likely suffer substantial damage.

 

[mhaze]

What happens when we build the offshore wind farms and a hurricane hits them? Would they have to be evacuated/shutdown ala oil platforms or could they withstand the hurricane and provide a huge bonanza of energy?

Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

That idea of offshore wind is so frikking stupid it sounds as if it is the product of starry eyed rabid left environmentalists pushing a "renewables" vision with government subsidies.

Wait...that's what it is...

 

[Cuddles]

That idea of offshore wind is so frikking stupid

In what way? So offshore windfarms probably can't handle hurricanes. Build them in places that don't get hit by hurricanes then. It doesn't take a genius to work that one out.

 

[Folly]

Apparently it does take a genius. mhaze didn't get it, after all

For areas with high variability, could you not have something with an adjustable efficiency/maximum wind speed tradeoff? Something like having fan blades that could be rotated to reduce efficiency in very windy conditions. Then you would at least get _something_ out of the very high winds.

 

[mhaze]

In what way? So offshore windfarms probably can't handle hurricanes. Build them in places that don't get hit by hurricanes then. It doesn't take a genius to work that one out.

Sure. Be sure to build them where you can avoid strong gales, violent storms, waterspouts and tornados, too.

Hold on...is there any such place?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale

 

[Ladewig]

That idea of offshore wind is so frikking stupid it sounds as if it is the product of starry eyed rabid left environmentalists pushing a "renewables" vision with government subsidies.

Wait...that's what it is...

Can you explain why the Dutch have already built an offshore wind farm if it is so "frikking stupid"?

International Herald Tribune, April 2007

AMSTERDAM: The Netherlands flipped the switch Wednesday on its first major offshore wind farm, a €200 million metallic forest in the North Sea that will provide enough power to light 100,000 homes.

[snip]

Though more expensive than land-based wind farms, the $272 million offshore project was meant to satisfy objections that the towering windmills would be a blot on the landscape. It also takes advantage of stronger, steadier coastal breezes.

The 36 turbines are capable of producing 108 megawatts an hour, another step toward the Dutch goal of generating 9 percent of its electricity from renewable sources by 2010.

"I am convinced that without the further deployment of offshore wind energy, it will be impossible to meet the present government's ambitious goals for sustainable energy," the economy minister, Maria van der Hoeven, said in a statement. "We must therefore put in place procedures for licensing and subsidies that will bring about innovation and cost reductions."

[snip]

Similar-sized projects are planned for Britain, Ireland, France, Germany and the United States.

 

[mhaze]

Can you explain why the Dutch have already built an offshore wind farm if it is so "frikking stupid"?

International Herald Tribune, April 2007

The project, jointly owned by Royal Dutch Shell and the Dutch utility company Nuon, was supported by a package of direct aid, tax breaks and production subsidies.
​

My original comment-

That idea of offshore wind is so frikking stupid it sounds as if it is the product of starry eyed rabid left environmentalists pushing a "renewables" vision with government subsidies.
​

$90,000 per home served for the wind farm and then they can 't even deliver power without additional subsidies in production. Are you seriously going to argue that $9M per megawatt capital cost would survive in the free market? Go ahead, support your claim.

Apparently it does take a genius. mhaze didn't get it, after all

For areas with high variability, could you not have something ......

Translation: Engineer and construct the system to standards of offshore oil rigs(expensive)...oh wait...I already said that was the problem....

 

[Pipirr]

Just imagine, nuclear power plants built entirely with private capital and no government subsidies.

That must happen all the time, surely. No? Oh.

 

[mhaze]

Just imagine, nuclear power plants built entirely with private capital and no government subsidies.

That must happen all the time, surely. No? Oh.

Please enlighten everybody with the ratio of your alleged subsidies, nuclear vs. renewables in capital cost and or per delivered kilowatt hour. Oh, throw in all those alleged Big Oil subsidies. Let's see some facts.

 

[Pipirr]

So, no nuclear power plants built with private capital and without any government subsidies then.

Okay.

 

[Foolmewunz]

$90,000 per home

<snip>

Go ahead, support your claim.

<snip>

See? Now this is why I don't hang around in the Math & Science crowd. I do my math in base 10, and you must have some other system.

100,000 homes
272,000,000 dollars

90,000 per home? Wouldn't that be like 9 billion dollars? (Why do I want a picture of Dr. Evil to go with that question?)

 

[Cuddles]

Sure. Be sure to build them where you can avoid strong gales, violent storms, waterspouts and tornados, too.

Hold on...is there any such place?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale

Well, the UK and most of the rest of Europe seem to manage their offshore windfarms well enough without getting constantly hit by tornadoes and hurricanes. Of course, gales are a different matter, but since that has nothing to with this thread, I'll ask you to please return those goalposts.

For areas with high variability, could you not have something with an adjustable efficiency/maximum wind speed tradeoff? Something like having fan blades that could be rotated to reduce efficiency in very windy conditions. Then you would at least get _something_ out of the very high winds.

I'm sure such a system would be technically possible, and I think I remember reading about similar ideas before. The problem is complexity. Wind turbines are already fairly complex machines with lots of moving parts. Adding more complex mechanisms will not only increase the initial cost, but will also make them less reliable and need more maintenance. It's not an area I follow that closely, but I rather suspect that it's much cheaper and more efficient to build in places that don't get hurricanes rather than trying to make turbines stand up to them.

 

[mhaze]

So, no nuclear power plants built with private capital and without any government subsidies then.

Okay.

What, instead of splashing into the pond with your facts and links...
Instead of tiptoeing into the argument...
You stick your toe in that tiny cup of expresso?

 

[lomiller]

See? Now this is why I don't hang around in the Math & Science crowd. I do my math in base 10, and you must have some other system.

I wouldn’t exactly call mhaze part of the science and math crowd. Most of his posts are rejections of real science and math in favor of whatever he can dig up on political blogs.

 

[dahduh]

What happens when we build the offshore wind farms and a hurricane hits them? Would they have to be evacuated/shutdown ala oil platforms or could they withstand the hurricane and provide a huge bonanza of energy?

The energy in wind rises as the cube of the wind's velocity; so wind at 35m/s (hurricane force) has 43 times more energy in it than wind at 10m/s (a good stiff wind, enough to invert your umbrella). So in theory the bonanza would be gigantic; 1 day of operation in a hurricane would give you as much energy as 43 really really good days.

Unfortunately the wind force is simply so high that when the wind exceeds about 25m/s it is necessary to feather the blades and lock them down. Typically windmills are designed for survive wind speeds up to 60m/s; something that might happen once every 50 years or so. This is why designs with a few thin, long and narrow blades spinning very quickly are generally adopted. However, there was an incident in Japan in which the blades were snapped off by a wind of 32m/s; it was believed that the blades had been weakened by lightning strikes.

If you don't feather the blades and the braking mechanism fails, this is what happens. Rather spectacular.

 

[Ziggurat]

Just imagine, nuclear power plants built entirely with private capital and no government subsidies.

That must happen all the time, surely. No? Oh.

Why doesn't it happen? Is it because such plants are inherently too costly to ever turn a profit? Or is it because litigation risks (driven largely by overly zealous environmentalists) make private funding too risky for investors?

 

[69dodge]

International Herald Tribune, April 2007

... 108 megawatts an hour ...

??

 

[fsol]

That idea of offshore wind is so frikking stupid it sounds as if it is the product of starry eyed rabid left environmentalists pushing a "renewables" vision with government subsidies.

Wait...that's what it is...

Oh, you are just as ignorant in this thread as the others you participate in.

 

[XBoxWarrior]

Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

Wait.....a ditto head? do you rush often?

Your post is a meaningless BS talking point.