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Psychic Samurai applies for MDC...apparently...

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Remember: A Faraday cage also needs to be shielded from below, and given how small and unobtrusive antennas can be, it might not be too difficult to have one inserted through the wire mesh. And at any rate, a signal can also be transmitted through ultrasound, infrared, or who knows what other gadgets human invention might create, so a Faraday cage will not be enough.
 
The Professor said:
Now we are getting somewhere.
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Agreed. You've identified a rudimentary passing criteria that some sort of recording devices will be able to play back answers to simple questions. Allow me to detail some issues I expect that might cause such a suggested protocol to be rejected.

Asking an unknown entity's name would not be a good choice, as it cannot always be verrified easily as an intelligent response. For example, if the reply is a loud and enthusiastic, "Soap Hockey!" it may be unclear if this is an intelligent response.

It will likely be necessary to have questions with more verifiably-intelligent answers. For example, asking the sum of 2 and 2, expecting an answer of "four". You've not yet stated any of the nature of the paranormal entities you plan to contact though. Perhaps they are mischevious or exceptionally poor at math and will answer "three" (or perhaps more skilled at math and cryptic, answering something like "second even"). If you plan to allow for such a response to be deemed an "intelligent" answer, your detailed criteria for successful answers will have to be rather comprehensive if the results are to be anything close to self-evident.

Further complicating things is the concern for the chosen language of the contacted entity. It could take a good deal of time to broadcast questions in multiple languages. Unless you're asserting that such entities can pick out the question from their understood language amid a cacophony behing thrown at them at the same time (I'd be interested to hear what evidence would lead you to this particular conclusion). Is the entity going to be limited to responding only to languages that are broadcast, or will an answer that appears to be some sub-dialect of Klingon also be accepted? If the field of "intelligent responses" is widened too far, the claim ends up essentially being "I'm going to ask questions, and after each some kind of sound will be recorded".

It seems ultimately you are unable to guarantee any nature to the sounds that will be recorded apart from some indication that currently understood science would predict that these sounds would not occur. This then bring us to the next point on how you plan to set up controls to rule out other ways sounds might end up recorded (so that indeed, currently understood science would predict these sounds would not get recorded). You've noted already a willingness to use a Faraday Cage, but that does not provide the full measure of protection the JREF is likely to require. For example, I'm unfamiliar with any technology to interfere with a Hypersonic sound device. Additionally it seems there would be great opportunity for any of the numerious asistants, or even the various pieces of technology, to cause sounds to get recorded.

In summary, your claim appears something along the lines of "I'm not sure exactly what's gonna happen, but I think it'll sure be neat!" Such a test will be rather difficult to design a protocol for, since for your sake you must account for all possible paranormal things that may occur, while at the same time eliminating any possibility that something unparanormal could be given a passing grade. Since there are a great number of unparanormal things that are also "neat", the task will not be easy.
 
It's all a bit messy this idea to me.I must inform that the The Professor has never undertaken any test at the proposed site,thus has no knowledge that anything paranormal occurs(other than urban legend).He only visted the site in June-as stated on Magic Cafe:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=261246&forum=14&start=0

Also again as far as I am aware,The Professor has no proof he has ever contacted an Entity previously either.
It boils down to,contacting unproven entity with unproven device at a site that is unproven to have any signifcance regards paranormal!
 
steenkh said:
Why ask him? The rules clearly say that the claimant has to pay for all.
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He is proposing a lot of equipment and personnel, and he has also proposed that JREF build some equipment from blueprints he will provide. It is unacceptable that he will not acknowledge that he understands that he alone is responsible for all costs. I know the rules and you know the rules-for the purpose of going forward on this, it is imperative that he knows the rules, understands them and will abide by them.
 
Based on what he's stated so far, I can think of several ways to cheat this with very basic recording techniques. I'm calling publicity stunt/conjuring. This guy thinks that by going technological he can sneak cheating past the magician crowd. And even then, there isn't anything even close to an acceptable protocal, though Hatchet's suggestion gets it remotely close.

Where it really gets me is that I can't see any way to reasonably control for cheating. These won't be off the shelf recording devices, or they could be purchased by a neutral party with The Professor's money and kept under control. Obviously The Professor cannot be allowed to build them or it would be trivial to prerecord the resonses. The JREF doesn't have the time to build them, and I don't see a third party being trusted with these custom devices. Without controlling the equipment, even an otherwise acceptable protocal is susceptible to cheating.
 
As the test has been described, I cannot see any way that it could ever be made acceptable.

Dave could go to the site today, bury a small radio transmitter, and throw some grass seed over it. By October 31, the site would look completely undisturbed. Then, the transmitter hits the right time and date and starts broadcasting whatever he wants.

One might think that this is too much work to be realistic, but it is pretty simple compared to the preparation for many large magic tricks.

I am still waiting to hear how Dave plans to distinguish this performance from a mere trick.
 
Loss Leader said:
As the test has been described, I cannot see any way that it could ever be made acceptable.

Dave could go to the site today, bury a small radio transmitter, and throw some grass seed over it. By October 31, the site would look completely undisturbed. Then, the transmitter hits the right time and date and starts broadcasting whatever he wants.

One might think that this is too much work to be realistic, but it is pretty simple compared to the preparation for many large magic tricks.

I am still waiting to hear how Dave plans to distinguish this performance from a mere trick.
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From what we've seen so far -- no indication of any willingness to state any sort of paranormal ability, but a lot of description of props and stage dressing, coupled with showy public pronouncements -- it appears that JREF is being used as part of an elaborate performance, that there is no intention to actually involve the MDC in this performance, and that all of this who-shot-John is just groundwork to be able to publicize it as something like "The event that Randi dared not challenge!" or some sort.

The Professor can remove that appearance by stating what the paranormal ability/event is, then moving on to a genuine good-faith effort to establish a workable protocol within the published rules of the challenge.
 
Howdy, TP --

I have a few suggestions, which are really just summaries of other people's very good comments here:

1) Rephrase your claim: "I, David Walter Koenig, will demonstrate the appearance of vocal responses on multiple recording media, the appearance of which cannot be explained through any normal means. These responses will be simple, in English, and in response to simple English questions I ask. The demonstration will take place at x pm on October 31, 2008, at 'the Devil's Chair' in Lake Helen, Florida." (where "x", of course, is the time at which your demo will start.)
2) Forget the multiple languages and stick with English. If the effect is paranormal, it'll occur regardless of the language used, so you might as well keep it simple. Plus, translators are expensive.
3) Hatchet's suggestion is an excellent one, and I'm glad you like it--I agree that you should use it (that is, part of your demonstration is to assign the answers to their questions after the recordings are made). I'd also recommend randomizing the order of the questions at the beginning of the test.

By paring down your claim, and most /especially/ leaving out the "paranormal entity" bit, you bring it closer to being testable. Keep it as simple as possible -- if you find yourself having to write five pages trying to describe your claim, you're probably doing it wrong. ; )

Remember that there's a distinction between the claim -- which should be simple -- and the protocol -- which should be incredibly details. Details about what equipment will be used and where it will come from, and the steps that will be taken to demonstrate the claimed effect/ability/process -- all go into the protocol.

So, in regards to the protocol (which I agree really should only be the focus /after/ the claim is rephrased), there are some very valid questions remaining, and that is: how will you control for trickery? Several people have pointed out ways to "fake" this effect -- buried transmitters, acoustic projection, etc. As a magician, I know you're familiar with many of them. Think, "if I were going to fake this, how would I do it?" Make a list. Devise, or ask for help devising, ways to defeat the items on your list. Run the list past us here -- maybe we can add to it. Then put all those controls into the protocol.

Czarcasm has pointed out a couple of times that it's important to remember that /you/ will be bearing all of the costs for this demonstration, including the cost of building equipment, etc. Since you seem to have posted in the Magic Cafe that you expect JREF to pay for (and construct) the equipment, I just wanted to make sure that you understand that that won't happen, right?
 
My suggestion.Scrap the devils chair idea.Its a gimmick.Urban legends arent particularly protocol worthy.
If this thing is performable ,it's performable anywhere.TP has no idea as I stated above,which no-one seems to address.

Magic trick ,magic trick ,magic trick.
 
Professor,
When I helped with Mr. Ngyuen's attempt at the MDC, I asked him to try several "dry runs" at the challenge using the proposed protocol to see if he would actually be able to perform as he claimed in his application & make sure that he was comfortable with the protocol. From my reading of the thread, you have not actually attempted this, or even built or used the equipment you are proposing. If I am wrong, and you actually have done this, I would like to know how you determined the recording was paranormal in nature? and if you have done this before, why the location and time? It would help a lot in designing a test protocol if you were more forthcoming about your claim and how it is paranormal.
 
I am placing my energies on winning this challenge. I appreciate everyone who is helping in a positive manner.
There are companies available for hire (Security Companies if you will) that are proficient in finding ANY electronic devices anywhere NEAR anyone or place. They work for financially secure companies that do not want any information "leaking' or being "brought in". They work for secretive businesses and others that are on the darker side of the law, if you know what I mean. They work for Politicians, Celebrities, and business executives as well as "Importers". They are extremely good at what they do. Miami has some as well as Orlando. You don't find these guys in the phone book :)
Do you think the JREF would approve of using one of these security experts and their personnel?
Thanks for all the help.
Dave
 
Seems that some of my posts are being deleted while others are allowed to spout ....TRICK TRICK TRICK ... Very professional!
 
Well, I'm just a nobody from downunder. And I think this (Dave's application) is hilarious.

And I don't think I'm going to see the million dollars change hands in my lifetime.

Sorry.


M.
 
The Professor said:
I am placing my energies on winning this challenge. I appreciate everyone who is helping in a positive manner.
There are companies available for hire (Security Companies if you will) that are proficient in finding ANY electronic devices anywhere NEAR anyone or place. They work for financially secure companies that do not want any information "leaking' or being "brought in". They work for secretive businesses and others that are on the darker side of the law, if you know what I mean. They work for Politicians, Celebrities, and business executives as well as "Importers". They are extremely good at what they do. Miami has some as well as Orlando. You don't find these guys in the phone book :)
Do you think the JREF would approve of using one of these security experts and their personnel?
Thanks for all the help.
Dave
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Answer the questions Dave! Both here and from RemieV.:rolleyes:
 
Re. David Koenig EVP protocol.

Apologies if this is the wrong place, but Remiev's thread is locked.
Mods please move if appropriate.

Can anyone involved explain to us how Mr.Koenig proposes to generate the EVP phenomena? This might be critical to whether or not the phenomenon is testable.

For example, If he uses a tape recorder , and a similar tape recorder run in parallel a few feet away produces nothing while his does, it hardly matters whether the sounds are intelligible. He would be directly affecting an electronic device. (Of course there are many ways to do this).
Does it actually matter whether he produces words in English, or in any language?
Can he agree to produce, say, a stream of prime number beeps?

I ask, because I do not know. There may be a way to make his effect , should it exist, objectively testable- and someone on this board may be able to suggest how, but this is hard if we don't know what means he proposes to use.

Edited by chillzero: 
2 posts moved in from other thread
 
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Sam there is a thread in Million Dollar challenge section.Your questions have been raised by other members,maybe check there.

Edit:The thread is below.
 
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The Professor said:
I am placing my energies on winning this challenge. I appreciate everyone who is helping in a positive manner.
There are companies available for hire (Security Companies if you will) that are proficient in finding ANY electronic devices anywhere NEAR anyone or place. They work for financially secure companies that do not want any information "leaking' or being "brought in". They work for secretive businesses and others that are on the darker side of the law, if you know what I mean. They work for Politicians, Celebrities, and business executives as well as "Importers". They are extremely good at what they do. Miami has some as well as Orlando. You don't find these guys in the phone book :)
Do you think the JREF would approve of using one of these security experts and their personnel?
Thanks for all the help.
Dave
Click to expand...

They might, but you'd have to pay for it. Are you prepared to do so?
 
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