A Soldier On Obama

They haven't had a competant war time leader since Eisenhower.


Gorby wanted to make peace, but that was unacceptable to Reagan, because the Republican mindset cannot grasp the idea of a war ending in any other way than the crushing of an enemy.

Ike was the one who, against FDR's wishes. did not take Berlin, and stopped the Allied advance at the Elbe. The West payed for that decision for the next 45 years.

MacArthur was a true combat veteran and military strategist. His plan captured the entire Korean Peninsula from the North.

Gorbie wanted to make peace with the U.S.? You mean when Reagan told him to tear down the Berlin Wall and he did just that 2 years later.
 
So, Cicero, did you ever hear of the Yalta Conference?

Would you have preferred OPatton's idea of just going on and invading Russia after Germany capitulated?

Gorby didn't tear down the wall. The Germans did,

And yes, Gorby did try to make peace. Reagan just wanted to be seen as winning and screwed up the peace.
 
So, Cicero, did you ever hear of the Yalta Conference?

Would you have preferred OPatton's idea of just going on and invading Russia after Germany capitulated?

Gorby didn't tear down the wall. The Germans did,

And yes, Gorby did try to make peace. Reagan just wanted to be seen as winning and screwed up the peace.

First off, FDR was a shell of his former self by February 1945, and Stalin had NKVD head Beria bug FDR's residence in the Livadia Palace near Yalta.

Contrary to those whose mantra is that the Allies joyously gave Stalin all of eastern Europe to do with as he pleased, Germany was not divided at the boarder that FDR originally mapped out in 1943 on the U.S.S. Iowa. The American and Russian occupation zones met at Berlin with the American zone occupying northwest Germany, including Hamberg, Bremerhaven, Lubeck, and Rostock. The Soviets were to get a fraction of the eastern portion of Germany that they eventually got.

If SHAEF actually believed Patton was going to start up WWII with the Soviets, they would not have made him governor of Bavaria and commander of 15th Army after he continued to be outspoken about Soviet/U.S. relations.

So you are saying that even though the East Germans had the support of Russian tanks, 10 times the number of U.S. tanks, in 1989, Erich Honecker went against the wishes of the Kremlin and opened up the boarder because he feared the U.S. more than his Soviet controllers?
 
The West Germans, who had the backing of American missiles.

Do you honestly think that the rest of NATO would have let president Jelly Brain start a war with East Germany? Do you think they would have thought it worth the effort and the blood and the nuclear fallout all over their food supply to satisfy a senile old acrtor's fantasies of being a military genious?

I sort of doubt it.
 
The OP claim the invasion and occupation was/is for the benefit of the iraki.Done for justice, freedom, democracy, and to rid the world of an EVIL dictator.

Just go reread Bush State of the Union Address in January 2003 where Bush laid out the case for toppling Saddam. All the above were listed as reasons Saddam needed to go. All were listed as reasons "we were coming." And there was bipartisan support for all those reasons.

We also, importantly, went in because Saddam wasn't coming clean with respect to WMD and long range delivery system programs and had not given up his ambitions to acquire more of both as he had agreed to do back in 1991 in order to end that Gulf War attacks on his regime. And that is precisely what the ISG found after the invasion.

Take a look around the world, if those arguments were more than a smokescreen there would be alot of humanitarian invasions going on.

None of the other dictators are violating WMD related agreements (although Iran may be coming close to doing it). That was the trigger for the 2003 invasion. Had he not done that, Saddam would probably still be around. But once he did that, the other reasons came into play as further reasons to take Saddam and his government down. Reasons that were just as motivating to our troops as the other reason was.

You are repeating the propaganda screen of a major armed robbery.

Wow! This is the first armed robbery I've heard of where the robber rebuilds and strengthens the vault, puts more money in it, and leaves the bank better off than it was before the robbery. Maybe you are the one spouting propaganda, Toke. :D

Perhaps because it can´t get worse?

NONSENSE. Haven't you heard? Things are looking up in Iraq. The strategy proposed by McCain back in 2003 and finally adopted in late 2006 is clearly working. Violence is down. Iraqis are working together. Oil is flowing. Even Obama is starting to admit that's the case. And things could have gotten much worse had we done what Obama proposed in January of 2003. Then Iraq might now be in utter chaos. And even now things could get worse if Obama's current cut and run proposal were enacted. We could return to the violence of 2005 and 2006.
 
Just go reread Bush State of the Union Address in January 2003 where Bush laid out the case for toppling Saddam. All the above were listed as reasons Saddam needed to go. All were listed as reasons "we were coming."

The yellow cake and stores of chemical weapons was a lie. bush had stated while he was governor of Texas that he wanted to invade Iraq toi gain political capiutal. PNAC wanted us to establish hegemony in the region. PNAC wanted hegemony. Saddam was screwed no matter what he did, and we had no real causus belli to take unilateral actions.

We also, importantly, went in because Saddam wasn't coming clean with respect to WMD and long range delivery system programs and had not given up his ambitions to acquire more of both as he had agreed to do back in 1991 in order to end that Gulf War attacks on his regime. And that is precisely what the ISG found after the invasion.

Not so. Saddam was destroying the missiles that had a range 15 miles too great. The rest is utter BS.
 
WMD was a lie, it was known before the invasion. The niger uranium fake show a strong desire to make up something to back up a humanitarian invasion argument.

Wow! This is the first armed robbery I've heard of where the robber rebuilds and strengthens the vault, puts more money in it, and leaves the bank better off than it was before the robbery. Maybe you are the one spouting propaganda, Toke.

Are you taking about rebuilding by cost plus contractors with no oversight?
An iraki goverment with no meter on the oilvalve?
Bremers kapitalist paradise with full unemployment?
Dissapering billions for rebuild efford?
 
We never could afford the war

NONSENSE, lefty. You are simply reciting bogus, leftist, anti-war talking points. We've spent less as a percentage of GDP on the Iraq War than we have almost all our previous wars. The Congressional Research Service gives the current cumulative cost of the war as being about $550 billion dollars. The GPD over the 5.5 years the war has been going on has been over $10 trillion a year. So the Iraq War has cost about 6% of one year's GDP. In comparison WW2 cost over 130% of GDP. The Civil War cost 100% of GDP. The Revolutionary War cost 60% of GDP. WW1 cost the US 20% of GDP. And both the Korean War and Vietnam War cost over 10% of GDP. So we can afford this level of expenditures because we already have many times over.

the war is going to cost us money we cannot afford to spend on it for decades unless we end the occupation now.

Nonsense. As you can see from the above statistics, we can afford to see things through to a successful conclusion. We can't afford not to do so. What you anti-war leftists want to do is throw away what has been accomplished by forcing premature withdrawal. That's what General Patreaus warns could happen under Obama's plan. That would waste most of the SPENT cost of the Iraq War and all the lives that have been spent getting to this point. And that's, frankly, a LOSER *strategy*.

And you fail to realize that there were and are costs associated with not invading or now letting the Iraq experiment fail. An excellent case can be made (because I've made it many times on this forum with no successful challenges from your side) that had we not invaded the cost to the US would be in the trillions of dollars over time. Even now, a premature withdrawal could unleash a civil war in Iraq. Even Obama's running mate, before he became Obama's running mate, advised against the type of foolhardy withdrawal that Obama has advocated for 5 years now.

The occupation CREATED al Qaeda in Iraq.

NOT TRUE. al-Qaeda was present in Iraq before we invaded. As proof, a dozen al-Qaeda terrorists, who were convicted in Jordan of entering the country with the vehicles and materials needed to carry out a chemical bomb plot that could have killed tens of thousands of Jordanians and everyone in the US embassy in Amman, admitted to being members of al-Qaeda and admitted to having met al-Zarqawi in BAGHDAD BEFORE THE INVASION to get their marching orders and the money needed to carry out the plot.

Now al-Qaeda certainly used the instability in Iraq after the invasion to expand their operations but they were expanding them even before the war began. And Obama was not smart enough to see that once that happned and al-Qaeda made Iraq it's top priority, we needed to stop them. He would have pulled out in 2003 and let al-Qaeda gain control through terror. That's just Stuck On Stupid if you ask me. :D

Bush actually finished the Iran/Iraq war from the 80s. He gave the victory to Iran.

Wrong, again, lefty. The Iranian backed militias in Iraq have lost most of the power they had in Iraq thanks to the recent actions against them by the Iraqi government and because of their use of terrorist tactics (the same reason al-Qaeda lost its support amongst the Iraqi people). Iraqis do not want to be part of Iran and have tired of terrorism. That is clear from all the polls. The militia's leadership has even fled the country. Or course, Iran is still sending some arms into Iraq and providing haven for some die hard terrorists, but this is going to backfire. It has already polarized most of the Iraqi population against them and the time is coming when Iran is going to pay a VERY steep price for its interference and support of global terrorism. In fact, it has already begun to pay that price.

Military force is a stupid way to fight an enemy with no physical location to begin with.

How would you fight them, *general*? Send in the clowns ... I mean lawyers? You know ... that's one of the refreshing things about McCain and Palin. Neither of them is a lawyer ... the only occupation where one is taught it is ethical to lie. :D
 
Guess you would not consider a scenario where the us invade to get a client state in a usefull location, and controll of a huge oil reserve.

We don't control Iraq's oil and they are not a "client" state. You need to stop listening to whatever socialist propaganda they are feeding you over in Denmark. In fact Iraq's President recently said he wants us out once Iraq is stable ... and we've readily agreed to do that. In fact, we've never said we'd do anything else. And their oil revenue is going to them and we in the United States of America pay whatever is the global market price for oil ... just like you. And you really should be thanking the US for saving your country from tyrants THREE TIMES in the last century without ever asking for a dime to cover our expenses (not to mention the lives lost doing it). I guess some folks are just borne to be ingrates. :D
 
I do not want to waste another life trying to build a Friedmanite dystopia in a foreign country jusdt to prove that idiots like the PNAC thugs had a good idea. We tried to impose Friedmanite government on one other country and it pretty well destroyed their ecconomy.

The whole humanitarian arguement for the invasion went in the toilet the minute Bremmer started polluting the air of Baghdad with his BS.
 
Reagan's brain sprang a l;eak before he became governor of California. He caused a lot of the homeless problems by closing down the out-patient mental health facilities, then just shrugged off the untreated zanies roaming the street as an intractible problem and not that big a deal, since we had the cops.

I don't give a rat's how poular the dimbulb was. Hitler was kind of popular at one time, as I recall.
 
The yellow cake and stores of chemical weapons was a lie.

No, just bad intelligence. Bush relied on what the intelligence communities was telling him. And the truth is that we still do not know what Iraq had in the way of WMD. If you want to claim we do, you need to tell us:

- the contents of those trucks that were observed going to Syria before the war (that a "credible" source told the ISG was WMD related)?

- the contents of the concrete bunker that was built under the Euphrates in 2002 (that locals said contained WMD) and that was looted before the CIA (in all it's *wisdom*) decided to take a look at it in 2006?

- why Iraq selectively sanitized files, computers and facilities thought related to WMD? What were they hiding?

- where that binary sarin shell that turned up as an IED actually came from and how you *know* it was the only one?

- what the documents dated 2002 from Saddam that were found in Iraq but not translated until recently meant when they ordered "special" materials to be hidden ("special" materials was the way Iraq referred to WMD)?

- and, of course, why you think invading Iraq was only about finding completed WMD munitions, and not precursors and the means to produce WMD as well (you see the ISG concluded that Iraq had not given up it's pursuit of WMD and that Saddam planned to reconstitute his chemical munitions within six months to a year after the UN gave Iraq a clean bill of health and sanctions ended)?

But you aren't able to explain any of that, are you? :D

bush had stated while he was governor of Texas that he wanted to invade Iraq toi gain political capiutal.

Challenge. I'd like to see your proof of this claim. Or is this another claim you won't be able to back up?

Quote:
We also, importantly, went in because Saddam wasn't coming clean with respect to WMD and long range delivery system programs and had not given up his ambitions to acquire more of both as he had agreed to do back in 1991 in order to end that Gulf War attacks on his regime. And that is precisely what the ISG found after the invasion.

Not so. Saddam was destroying the missiles that had a range 15 miles too great. The rest is utter BS.

I see you didn't actually read the ISG final report, lefty. :rolleyes:

Because the ISG did indeed conclude that Saddam had not given up his ambitions vis a vis acquiring WMD. It's there in black and white. They said they believe Saddam had every intention of reconstituting his chemical and biological weapon arsenal as soon as the UN gave Iraq a clean bill of health and sanctions ended. The ISG said that Iraq had retained the equipment, materials and personnel needed to reconstitute his mustard gas warheads within 6 months of an order from Saddam to do so. They concluded nerve gas warheads could be in production in one to two years.

They also said Iraq violated more than just the allowed range limit on the one missile they were FORCED to destroy. Iraq agreed not to even research delivery systems with a range more than 150km. But quite clearly they did and they hid the mere existence of any documents that might lead to that conclusion. They provided none of them. Yet the ISG found many ... even complete CAD drawings of such systems dated 2002. Saddam was pressuring his scientists to start production of intermediate range missiles within a few years and was trying to purchase them from abroad. You did hear about his deal with North Korea, didn't you? Or are you just willfully uninformed, *general*? According to the ISG, they found “written evidence of a contractual negotiation” between North Korea and Iraq for the purchase of 1,300 km-range No Dong missiles. Iraqi documents indicate that Baghdad made a $10 million down payment in late 2002 for a single No Dong missile but North Korea failed to deliver the missile allegedly “because they were being watched too closely by the Bush Administration”. The ISG also uncovered Iraqi plans or designs for three long-range ballistic missiles with ranges from 400 to 1,000 km and for a 1,000 km- range cruise missile, although none of these systems progressed to production and only one reportedly passed the design phase. So don't try to claim that Iraq wasn't trying to seriously violate its agreement not to research, develop, test or stockpile long range delivery systems. They clearly did. And if we'd not invaded Iraq in 2003, they might by now be testing or even fielding those systems. And I'd bet you they'd be tipped with WMD. To believe anything else would be supremely naive given Saddam's history, *general*.

By the way, the ISG also quotes the head of the UAV program saying that he expected that the UAV program was to be used to deliver WMD. And it is incontrovertible that Iraq violated the agreement it signed not to research, develop, test or deploy UAVs beyond a certain range. The UAVs that Iraq was discovered to be actively working on in 2003 had already been tested to well beyond that range. In fact, they'd been tested out to a range of 500 km — 350 km beyond the UN-permissible limit. In short, they lied about that to the UN in their declaration. So what else did they lie about, lefty?

Just keep digging the hole for your and Obama's credibility. Our side thanks you.
 
WMD was a lie, it was known before the invasion.

FALSE. If you honestly believe that, then answer the questions I asked in post #78. Bet you can't, not in any rational way. And the war was about more than weapon STOCKPILES.

Quote:
Wow! This is the first armed robbery I've heard of where the robber rebuilds and strengthens the vault, puts more money in it, and leaves the bank better off than it was before the robbery. Maybe you are the one spouting propaganda, Toke.

Are you taking about rebuilding by cost plus contractors with no oversight?

And whose money was it doing the rebuilding? Iraq's or the US'?

An iraki goverment with no meter on the oilvalve?

Are you claiming they pumped more than what was made available to the global commodities market and then gave it to the US below the global market price? I bet you believe 9/11 was an inside job, too. :rolleyes:

Bremers kapitalist paradise with full unemployment?

I take that as an admission you are a socialist? Which of Denmark's parties do you belong to, Toke? :D

Dissapering billions for rebuild efford?

Whose billions disappeared? Iraq's or the US'? And if you think any of Iraq's oil revenues *disappeared* in to US hands, PROVE IT. Again, this notion that the US is *robbing* Iraqi is akin to 9/11 woo. I suggest you take it to the conspiracy forum where it belongs.
 

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