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So Now We Know Why the Anti-Palin Effort Was So Desperate

1. Favors teaching creationism. I believe I talked about this before, but it's a mischaracterisation of her position.

You can keep saying that, but it will still be false:

"Intelligent design in my view is plausible and credible and something that should be taught." - Sarah Palin

You're simply incorrect. Or, more likely, desperately spinning.

And even if she did favor teaching creationism, that's really, really low on my list of concerns about a vice president.

Well, being VP also includes:

1. A legislative role, as President of the Senate
2. The possibility of being President, in case the President becomes incapacitated.

In either case, such policies matter.


But you don't care, out of this pathetic need to defend the Republican campaign, whoever it happens to be.
 
You can keep saying that, but it will still be false:

"Intelligent design in my view is plausible and credible and something that should be taught." - Sarah Palin

You're simply incorrect. Or, more likely, desperately spinning.



Well, being VP also includes:

1. A legislative role, as President of the Senate
2. The possibility of being President, in case the President becomes incapacitated.

In either case, such policies matter.


But you don't care, out of this pathetic need to defend the Republican campaign, whoever it happens to be.

And the criminalizing homosexuals? You've got me on the edge of my seat here, and you don't respond to that point?

ETA: And Happy Birthday!
 
I'll say the same thing about her I say about Obama: She gives one HELL of a speech. Now let's see how she holds up in a debate outside her party.

Should be fun. :)
 
Can you define "winning in Iraq?" Neither of the people on your ticket has.

The spin machine has given me the impression that any minor (and I hope not temporary) decrease in violence constitutes victory! I bet a portion of the public will buy that, too. It says nothing of having created a desparate, mis-managed quagmire in the first place.

The speakers last night kept driving against tax-and-spend liberals... what accountability for borrow-and-spend military adventures which shifted the focus from OBL?
 
You can keep saying that, but it will still be false:

"Intelligent design in my view is plausible and credible and something that should be taught." - Sarah Palin

You're simply incorrect. Or, more likely, desperately spinning.



Well, being VP also includes:

1. A legislative role, as President of the Senate
2. The possibility of being President, in case the President becomes incapacitated.

In either case, such policies matter.


But you don't care, out of this pathetic need to defend the Republican campaign, whoever it happens to be.


When Raychill Maddow was making similar comments about Palin during MSNBC's post speech analysis, her attacks were rather predicable and pathetic. She described Palin's speech as full of "sarcasm." The fact that the Dems inspire sarcasm was lost on her. Even the liberal Matthews was forced to give her her due.
 
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Thanks for being responsive. I appreciate it. It helps in understanding your arguments. :)

And I do mean this sincerely.

I don't doubt your sincerity at all. I'm continually amazed at how many people doubt mine. I sometimes feel like I've wandered into Pauline Kael's circle of friends where everybody says, "You support Republicans? Really? Stop kidding us!"

The thing that cracks me up the most about this is that I took major flak from Republicans over supporting McCain. I basically had to give up reading conservative blogs for six months or so, had to stop listening to talk radio (haven't gone back, either; those guys burned their bridges with me).
 
1. Favors teaching creationism. I believe I talked about this before, but it's a mischaracterisation of her position.
It is not. She uses the weasel words of the religious right "teach the controversy" and "don't be afraid of debate" to argue for getting religious doctrine taught in public school science classes. It's a similar tactic to calling creationism "creation science". When that failed, people with that same agenda called it "Intelligence Design". The courts didn't buy it. It's religion.

There is no scientific controversy that involves creationism. She was certainly NOT talking about discussing such a controversy in a comparative religion class or social studies class. She is in fact in favor of teaching religious doctrine in public school science classes.



3. Favors unscientific "abstinence-only" sex education. I don't favor abstinence-only if abstinence only consists of no biological discussion. But I also note that nobody ever seems curious how "scientific" sex education has worked over the years.
What? Of course we're concerned about these outcomes. The results of studies (even those conducted by pro-abstinence only groups) show that compared to conventional sex ed programs, the abstinence only programs result in a slightly delayed first intercourse, but significantly higher rates of teen pregnancy and STDs. The simple fact is, conventional sex ed works better than abstinence only programs. The problem being, of course, that abstinence only programs have a gag rule on at least some very important things like birth control, prevention of STDs using condoms, etc.

Proponents of abstinence only programs support them based on religious convictions and not on the science.

I was going to give you her exact words in response to a survey done by a religious-right group (The Eagle Forum) in 2006, but since yesterday, they have pulled their blog. It used to be here.

I do know part of it. She said, "Explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support." It's tough to teach biology without being explicit.

4. Vague stuff about women controlling their own destinies. I assume we're talking about abortion here? I'm personally pro-choice. But unlike the Obama camp, I know what would happen if Roe V Wade were overturned. Nothing. The issue would simply be turned back to the states, where it would die a well-deserved death. No state would ban it.
I don't know what's so vague about Palin's position. She is in favor of removing women's right to make reproductive choices. She wants abortion outlawed, even in cases of rape and incest, pretty much the most extreme anti-choice position. If she were V.P., she'd be the proverbial one heartbeat away from being in a position where she could appoint the next Supreme Court Justice.

Also, I think you underestimate the "pro-life" movement's ability to get laws passed that nibble away at reproductive rights.

5. Palin favors criminalizing homosexuals. This is indeed a very serious charge and I would be interested in Cleon's evidence backing it up.
I'm not sure about that, but she is on record as wanting to deny benefits to same sex partners. She is also in favor of a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. (I suppose it depends on how you define "criminalize". There will be same sex partners living as if married--what used to be called common law marriage. Would such an amendment make those couples criminal? It would certainly criminalize those who have public wedding ceremonies, including any ministers who perform the ceremony.)

So those are her negatives,
There are other negatives.

Most notably, she paints herself as anti-pork reformer, yet her history as Mayor and Governor belie that assertion. (She paid a lobbyist to win federal earmarks totaling something like $27 million for the small town of Wassila. She was in fact in favor of the "bridge to nowhere" until it became a national scandal when she hopped on the bandwagon against it.)


But if you believe that Sarah Palin is going to institute a theocracy, then by all means, shout it from the rooftops that she must be stopped. And I'll just do the dog laugh smily.
I don't have fears of a theocracy because we have a system of checks and balances and a constitution that expressly forbids it.

However, ignoring that strawman position, it is a perfectly legitimate criticism of Palin that she, like Dubya, exhibits a strong anti-science bent in favor of an extreme religious position. You can't dismiss this criticism just because she isn't at all likely to establish a theocracy.
 
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It is not. She uses the weasel words of the religious right "teach the controversy" and "don't be afraid of debate" to argue for getting religious doctrine taught in public school science classes. It's a similar tactic to calling creationism "creation science". When that failed, people with that same agenda called it "Intelligence Design". The courts didn't buy it. It's religion.

There is no scientific controversy that involves creationism. She was certainly NOT talking about discussing such a controversy in a comparative religion class or social studies class. She is in fact in favor of teaching religious doctrine in public school science classes.

If she makes it a campaign promise I will get concerned.

What? Of course we're concerned about these outcomes. The results of studies (even those conducted by pro-abstinence only groups) show that compared to conventional sex ed programs, the abstinence only programs result in a slightly delayed first intercourse, but significantly higher rates of teen pregnancy and STDs. The simple fact is, conventional sex ed works better than abstinence only programs. The problem being, of course, that abstinence only programs have a gag rule on at least some very important things like birth control, prevention of STDs using condoms, etc.

If she makes it a campaign issue I will yawn.

I don't know what's so vague about Palin's position. She is in favor of removing women's right to make reproductive choices. She wants abortion outlawed, even in cases of rape and incest, pretty much the most extreme anti-choice position. If she were V.P., she'd be the proverbial one heartbeat away from being in a position where she could appoint the next Supreme Court Justice.

Also, I think you underestimate the "pro-life" movement's ability to get laws passed that nibble away at reproductive rights.

I support the overturning of Roe v Wade, so the Supreme Court Justice nomination will get my hearty thumbs up. I support leaving abortion legal, and know that it should not be a national issue.

I'm not sure about that, but she is on record aswanting to deny benefits to same sex partners. She is also in favor of a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. (I suppose it depends on how you define "criminalize". There will be same sex partners living as if married--what used to be called common law marriage. Would such an amendment make those couples criminal? It would certainly criminalize those who have public wedding ceremonies, including any ministers who perform the ceremony.)

It would certainly criminalize ministers who perform same-sex ceremonies? Really?

There are other negatives.

I was asked to respond to the ones in Cleon's post.

I don't have fears of a theocracy because we have a system of checks and balances and a constitution that expressly forbids it.

Excellent!

However, ignoring that strawman position,

From Cleon's post:

As long as she holds these positions, you're going to see her attacked, ridiculed, and lambasted as the fundamentalist theocrat-wannabe that she is.

Back to you:

it is a perfectly legitimate criticism of Palin that she, like Dubya, exhibits a strong anti-science bent in favor of an extreme religious position. You can't dismiss this criticism just because she isn't at all likely to establish a theocracy.

And I don't. I just say that the criticisms are on issues that are way down on my priority list.
 
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If she makes it a campaign promise I will get concerned.
So her record is irrelevant?
I support the overturning of Roe v Wade, so the Supreme Court Justice nomination will get my hearty thumbs up. I support leaving abortion legal, and know that it should not be a national issue.
That's a misuse of the word "know". You have every right to hold your political opinions, but they are just that--opinions, not knowledge. In fact, yours is a minority opinion. It is also not the consensus of current law.


And I don't. I just say that the criticisms are on issues that are way down on my priority list.
That's certainly not the only thing you said. Your thread title and OP suggest that these criticisms aren't legitimate but just the sign of fear and desperation.

They are not. They're quite strong and legitimate criticisms. The fact that they're low on your priority list is irrelevant.

I think it's perhaps more valid to see McCain's selection as a sign of desperation.

As evidence, I'd submit Carly Fiorina's overt attempts at courting Hillary Clinton supporters. Thinking that someone who supported Clinton will vote for the McCain-Palin ticket simply because Palin is a woman is absurd. Really, what matters more is the candidate's policies, positions and track record.
 
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Can you define "winning in Iraq?" Neither of the people on your ticket has.

Establishing a safe, stable state of Iraq. What was "winning in Germany" after World War II? Getting them to the point where we could hand the country back to them.
 
Establishing a safe, stable state of Iraq. What was "winning in Germany" after World War II? Getting them to the point where we could hand the country back to them.

after World War II? I have to say, I don't know enough about it, but

WWII did have V.E. day...

The thing is, Irag war apologists point to a complex world, but they still bandy-about words like "victory" as if the old feuds between nation-states still defined warfare. Moreover, many asked why money was still being spent on Cold War projects like the F-22, when more money should have been spent on counter terrorism. It feels like the Republicans have taken 20th C. military thinking and slapped the fresh label of terrorist in the blank for <enemy>. Lest it be said that Democrats could also vote for Cold War style military spending in their districts, I am taking this from talking points (the speeches themselves), and not from voting records.
 
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Establishing a safe, stable state of Iraq. What was "winning in Germany" after World War II? Getting them to the point where we could hand the country back to them.


The Iraqi government seems to think we can start doing that. Have we won already? If not, how will we know when we have? It's fine for reasonable people to disagree about the course we should take, but without specific answers to these questions, the Republican talk about victory vs. defeat is just cheap demagoguery.
 
Both those articles go on to say that the speech lacked x and y and z, which is fair from the standpoint of the authors.

But nobody is talking about how Palin flailed. She nailed it like Kerry Strug. Palin must now be considered the future of the Republican Party.
My favorite parts of her speech occured when the little girl, little bro next to her licked her hand and smoothed his hair. Total cute points. I also liked the point where she made som "humorous point and it took two+ seconds and her pausing for most of the audience to realize they were supposed to laugh. They also took awhile to rise on a pro-Repub. point they were supposed to rise to.[/QUOTE]

You said it was at least 4 seconds in your other post, that lag effect is really jerky on your TV. There was no lags like you are claiming. We all watched the speech, it really hurts your cause when you make claims like this.

As for why Palin is so appealing, it is easy. Most Americans look at her, and hear her and say, "She is one of us". She isn't a elitist Harvard law leftist, or a lifetime political palgerizing hack. She works and raises her family, she was a memeber of the PTA, she was involved in her kids afterschool activities, and she knows what the majority of americans do day in and day out of their lives. She does all this and she has shown to be an extremly capable leader on both a small scale and a large scale. This is a woman who we can tell understands what most americans really face in their day to day lives. She is truly one of us.
 
Establishing a safe, stable state of Iraq. What was "winning in Germany" after World War II? Getting them to the point where we could hand the country back to them.

What happened to the democratic bit? Call me cynical but I think the best case scenario is going to be a stable country ruled by a secular strong man....... which after $1 trillion sounds a lot like Sadam. :)

of course there are plenty of worse case scenarios, not least civil war or a religious theocracy. And given that the peace is currently being kept by paying the sunni militias millions of dollars to keep them sweet, and that the shiia majority are hardly happy with that happening long-term now that Al Qaeda have been largely driven out, as soon as the money stops it could well all unravel.

We shall see, but after five years my cynicism has not often let me down when it comes to the state of Iraq. :)
 

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