evidence against flight 93 shoot down

[leftysergeant]

For one thing 100 tons went in, but the hole is about ten feet deep. Where's the displaced dirt? The nearly 100 tons of material?

In all of the photos of "plane parts" there's maybe one ton of scrap.

The displaced dirt is mostly on the down-range side of the crater. Notice that the rim is pushed up several feet. Some of it was probably up-lifted in the explosion of the fuel. Some is seen on the ground down-range with some of the aircraft parts. After the impact, some of it collapsed back down around the aircraft.

The fire event was of such brief duration that the surrounding vegetation did not reach ignition tempoerature while there was still oxygen available. The subsequent in-rushiong of air after the blast would have cooled the vegetation and moved any burning fuel up and away from the vegetation.

Some burning fuel did continue down-range with some of the aircraft parts, starting natural cover fires in the woods and grass down-range.

The aircraft parts which had remained attached to the fuselage and wings would have continued below the surface until all momentum had been expended. Those parts aft of the wings which broke off would have continued on in the direction of travel at the time they broke free. This is exactly what we see in the photos.

Up-range, there is only paper and similar light debris, as the blast and winds would have distributed them. Down range there is heavier and denser debris which would have more easily overcome air resistance, along with lighter debris that would have been lifted by the up-draft of the blast. Down wind and tangental to the direction of travel we find only paper and fabric and insulation.

Matches perfectly with what a crash fire fighter would expect to find.

 

[deep]

I am by no means an authority on plane crashes, but I think it's logical to assume that 93 being a heavier plane, released more energy than 1771 did upon impact and had the potential to throw heavier debris from the point of impact. This might be the reason why this so-called "rib bone" washed up in a marina.

Anyone can takes guesses. I just don't see how anyone can form an opinion without real (non-speculative) answers to these questions.

 

[TJM]

Anyone can takes guesses. I just don't see how anyone can form an opinion without real (non-speculative) answers to these questions.

Your rib bone was nothing but a guess, yet troofers embrace it as fact.

 

[1337m4n]

Anyone can takes guesses. I just don't see how anyone can form an opinion without real (non-speculative) answers to these questions.

It is simple, you use testimony from the experienced air crash investigators, the people who were on the scene and are trained in air crash investigations unlike yourself, whom you ignore.

 

[Corsair 115]

Anyone can takes guesses. I just don't see how anyone can form an opinion without real (non-speculative) answers to these questions.

Interesting comment for you to make considering one of your issues is with the depth of the impact crater being insufficient in your opinion. I've asked you once already to explain the basis for that opinion and so far you've refrained from answering.

 

[gumboot]

Pan Am flight 103 broke up at altitude (31,000 feet) and scattered debris over 80 miles

if a similar thing happened to flight 93 why was debris only over 8 miles?

The primary debris field from PA103 was over 800sq mi in an 80mi long corridor. Smaller pieces of debris were found hundreds of miles away.

 

[funk de fino]

The primary debris field from PA103 was over 800sq mi in an 80mi long corridor. Smaller pieces of debris were found hundreds of miles away.

As this happened in my country there is quite often programs and news pieces on about it with interviews with people from the area etc.

One of the most disturbing was an interview with an old lady from Lockerbie who stated that whe she went outside there was a young male lying in her garden or over her fence who was a victim from the plane and he was still alive. Apperently this was not an isolated case and a few of the victims were alive for quite a time after the incident.

 

[TC329]

seeing that article is repeating the sad claim that debris was found 8 miles away (which is false because reporters were following the ROAD which was 8 miles - not following the path the wind was traveling) - we can assume that the "rest" of the article is not factually sound

wrong like always.

paper debris and some plane debris was recovered 8 miles away in New Baltimore, PA.

The report on Shanksville makes no mention of a full engine being found over a mile away; they FOUND engine parts, light weight, that was flung from the crater at such a hard impact, withing several thousand feet of the crash site.

the left engine was recovered in a pond 500-600 yards ahead of the crash site. it was fully intact. obviously seperated from the plane while the plane was airborne.

my source is for the above information is wally miller.

 

[TC329]

Pan Am flight 103 broke up at altitude (31,000 feet) and scattered debris over 80 miles

if a similar thing happened to flight 93 why was debris only over 8 miles?

well for starters according to all eyewitness reports this plane was nowhere near 31,000 feet agl so that causes a little problem for your "since this happened here then that must happen there" scenario........

 

[TC329]

Probably one of the best pieces is that the FDR showed that all systems were operating normally right up to the point of impact. Engine pressure ratios, cabin pressure, flight controls all reported normal readings until the recording stops at ground level.

Here is one source for a copy:
http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2597628857.html

EDIT: Better source: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BNZNOOKH

after talking to wally miller and having him describe the crash as the fbi determined it to have happened based on the physical evidence it's safe to say the fdr data is 100% bogus.

 

[TC329]

I don't see why the government would hide this. It would make them look just a little bit less incompetent...

they didn't want the shootdown investigated.

 

[TC329]

TC's latest claim is that the passengers did indeed force down United 93, which was supposed to hit WTC 7.

At least that's what I gather from his youtube page. But of course, truthers change their claims as often as they defecate... and it's not much different actually.

unsubstantiated garbage. please provide a link to anyplace where i said either of the following :

a) the target was wtc7
b) passengers forced it down

otherwise admit your a liar.

 

[TC329]

If it was down-range, what is your problem? That would indicate that it was stilkl attached to the aircraft when it hit the ground. If a missile knocked it off, it would be much farther away, in all likelihood, probably on a far different bearing.

lets see.....

the plane approached the crash site from the northeast flying southwest.
the trees destroyed in the woods are to the southwest.
the debris shattered all over the ground is to the southwest.
the left engine was recovered 600 yards ahead of the crash site to the southwest.

yet there is a debris field at indian lake and new baltimore both of which are southeast of the crash site.

yeah youre right, nothing to see here......

 

[TC329]

Evidence of a shoot down? It's evidence enough to me that the government didn't trumpet the fact that they successfully shot it down, given the current situation and what happened earlier that day.

the bush administration didnt want a shoot down investigated is proof that one didn't take place.

they didn't want 9/11 investigated either. guess that means it didn't take place as well........

 

[TC329]

Hole in ground is NOT empty.

other than some scrap and part of an engine yes it is. it's 8 feet deep and there's no 757 there.

somehow 100tons disappeared into an 8 foot deep hole and it didn't even displace the appropriate amount of dirt to accomodate it. weird, huh?

Hole in ground matches previous crashes that were similar.

oh yeah?

link them!

No bases for why rim should be burnt.

other than the massive jet fuel explosion like the ones we saw in nyc which weakened steel and leveled 2 skyscrapers you're right.....

And you want people to take you seriously because?

i was wonderin the same thing about you.........

 

[TC329]

It takes a special kind of willful ignorance to continue making the patently ridiculous claims RedIbis is making.

none of that debris is heading in the direction of new baltimore or indian lake.

weird.

 

[leftysergeant]

the left engine was recovered in a pond 500-600 yards ahead of the crash site. it was fully intact. obviously seperated from the plane while the plane was airborne.

That is so utterly absurd as to almost not need commenting. Had the engine become detached while the palne was airborn, the enigne would hardly be expected to be found that near to the aircraft, especially not so nearly straight down range of the impact site, and it would hjave been severly damaged falling from any great height, or perhaps have dug yet another cxrater. The loss of an engine would have put the aircraft so out of trim that it could hardly have followed anything resembling a straight path. There would also have been further rather large bit of debris scattered about as well. The crash was, however, clearly a controlled flight into terrain.

 

[TC329]

That is so utterly absurd as to almost not need commenting. Had the engine become detached while the palne was airborn, the enigne would hardly be expected to be found that near to the aircraft, especially not so nearly straight down range of the impact site, and it would hjave been severly damaged falling from any great height, or perhaps have dug yet another cxrater.

yeah even if it was seperated from the plane at a low altitude the engine would continue the path it was naturally on. in a descent angle towards the ground it managed to land a few hundred yards ahead of the rest of the craft. your response is what is utterly absurd here.

The loss of an engine would have put the aircraft so out of trim that it could hardly have followed anything resembling a straight path.

it pretty much rocked back and forth some before turning on its side with the wings at a 90 degree angle as it descended into the ground.

There would also have been further rather large bit of debris scattered about as well.

speculative. and there were some bigger pieces of debris recovered. the larger pieces we see in photographic evidence sure aren't in the crater now are they?

The crash was, however, clearly a controlled flight into terrain.

clearly there is nothing clearly indicating as proof it was a controlled flight into the terrain. more utter absurdity.

 

[leftysergeant]

they didn't want the shootdown investigated.

Rummy had already announced that they had, indeed returned fire on the hijackers, obviously thinking that, because he had dispatched fighters to do so they had succeded. Rummy is less bright and effective than he thinks himself to be.

A tyrant needs to keep the sheeple subservient and reliant on the tyrant for protection. The last bloody thing the PNAC junta would want would be for people to think is that they can defend themselves quite nicely, thank you very much.

Had there been a shoot-down, Rummy would have been milking this like Rudy did 9/11.

 

[leftysergeant]

and there were some bigger pieces of debris recovered. the larger pieces we see in photographic evidence sure aren't in the crater now are they?

Yes, everything from the wingroots forward is buried beneath the crater. The crater covers about the right surface area, and the soil is soft. I have heard that the fuselage penetrated About 15-20 feet. Deep enugh.