evidence against flight 93 shoot down

[Corsair 115]

Hole in ground is empty and the rim is unburnt. And you want me to withhold skepticism?

Aside from the inaccuracy of the comment about the impact crater being empty, I'll repeat my question from earlier which wasn't answered:

One can infer that you think all of the aircraft debris should have been contained within the impact crater. Is that what you actually think should have happened?

 

[1337m4n]

Ahh, a wonderful game of Dodgefact.

One of the things in this picture represents RedIbis/deep44, the other represents facts and evidence. Can you guess which is which?

 

[RedIbis]

Aside from the inaccuracy of the comment about the impact crater being empty, I'll repeat my question from earlier which wasn't answered:

One can infer that you think all of the aircraft debris should have been contained within the impact crater. Is that what you actually think should have happened?

No. But I don't think it would look like an empty hole with unburnt grass growing around the rim.

 

[SDC]

1/ As Beachnut demonstrated, it does not look like an empty hole. 2/ But in any case, would you please explain your years of experience, and your specific expertise, in the area of investigating air crashes? Why would anyone in his/ her right mind listen to you, in short?

 

[Corsair 115]

No. But I don't think it would look like an empty hole with unburnt grass growing around the rim.

Why? What are the reasons for this expectation of yours? I trust it is something more substantial than how aircraft crashes are depicted in Hollywood movies and TV shows. (Do you think that a mid-air breakup as shown in Lost could at all result in survivors or sections of the aircraft landing relatively intact?)

Recall that my question was in response to your difficulty in accepting that an engine of the aircraft was found some distance away from the impact crater.

 

[RedIbis]

Why? What are the reasons for this expectation of yours? I trust it is something more substantial than how aircraft crashes are depicted in Hollywood movies and TV shows. (Do you think that a mid-air breakup as shown in Lost could at all result in survivors or sections of the aircraft landing relatively intact?)

Recall that my question was in response to your difficulty in accepting that an engine of the aircraft was found some distance away from the impact crater.

For one thing 100 tons went in, but the hole is about ten feet deep. Where's the displaced dirt? The nearly 100 tons of material?

In all of the photos of "plane parts" there's maybe one ton of scrap.

 

[SDC]

And you recognize this from your many years of experience, your high levels of expertise, or from looking at some photos with your untutored eye?

Pure argument from incredulity. Not worth the electrons it is printed on.

 

[TheRedWorm]

nvm

 

[SDC]

nvm

Young computer literate whippersnappers... Which does this mean:

AcronymDefinitionNVM'
Not Very Much (chat)
NVMNational Volcanic Monument
NVMNetwork Virtual Machine
NVMNetwork Virtual Memory
NVMNever Mind
NVMNew Vision Mortgage, LLC
NVMNight Vision Monocular
NVMNon-Volatile Memory
NVMNonvolatile Matter
NVMNist Virtual Museum

ETA I am hoping for "National Volcanic Monument." Is it interesting?

 

[TheRedWorm]

SDC: The one with the thing about the stuff.

 

[johnny karate]

For one thing 100 tons went in, but the hole is about ten feet deep. Where's the displaced dirt? The nearly 100 tons of material?

In all of the photos of "plane parts" there's maybe one ton of scrap.

No first responders, eye witnesses, or investigators have come to the conclusion that the Shanksville crash site was suspiciously absent a crashed airplane. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because they had their "minds changed" the way you believe the firefighters at WTC7 did?

 

[Corsair 115]

For one thing 100 tons went in, but the hole is about ten feet deep.

How deep do you think the hole should have been and why?

In all of the photos of "plane parts" there's maybe one ton of scrap.

How are you able to estimate the total weight of debris from merely looking at the photos? Have you seen every photo taken of the debris?

I would suggest you read the Swiss Air Flight 111 accident report I linked to earlier for an example of a high-speed impact incident and the nature of the debris recovered and the scope of the recovery operations which took place duirng the investigation.

 

[jhunter1163]

Young computer literate whippersnappers... Which does this mean:

AcronymDefinitionNVM'
Not Very Much (chat)
NVMNational Volcanic Monument
NVMNetwork Virtual Machine
NVMNetwork Virtual Memory
NVMNever Mind
NVMNew Vision Mortgage, LLC
NVMNight Vision Monocular
NVMNon-Volatile Memory
NVMNonvolatile Matter
NVMNist Virtual Museum

ETA I am hoping for "National Volcanic Monument." Is it interesting?

The one at Mt. St. Helens is. Only about three miles from the crater and looks straight into it. Not someplace I'd want to be if the mountain was rumbling.

In this context, though NVM = Never Mind

 

[doobiedoright]

For one thing 100 tons went in, but the hole is about ten feet deep. Where's the displaced dirt? The nearly 100 tons of material?

In all of the photos of "plane parts" there's maybe one ton of scrap.

How in the world could you know that?
You have absolutely no way to know that at all.
My putter screen shows a lot of plane parts scattered about!
Maybe a new monitor is in order!
Please pick this week top stop sniffing glue!

 

[1337m4n]

EVIDENCE IN FAVOR OF FLIGHT 93 CRASH: Eyewitnesses report seeing a crash and crash scene. Parts from flight 93 picked up and identified. DNA from identified passengers of flight 93 picked up and identified. Phone calls from flight 93 near alleged crash site. Testimony from United Airlines confirming that flight 93 crashed in shanksville. Personal effects identified as belonging to the passengers of flight 93 found in the debris that was also identified as belonging to flight 93. Crash scene investigators confirm the crash of flight 93. Cockpit voice recorder confirmed as belonging to flight 93. Flight 93 not found anywhere else in the world.

EVIDENCE AGAINST FLIGHT 93 CRASH: The crash scene does not look like what I (an untrained layman, mind you) personally think the crash scene should look like. This judgement is based on blind faith and not on any actual experience or expertise in air crash investigation.



RedIbis, deep44, would you say that this is an accurate assessment? If not, what am I missing?

 

[Mr.Herbert]

No burns at this crater!!! INSIDE JOB!!!!!

Oooops. This isn't Flight 93 .... it's flight 1771.

 

[SDC]

EVIDENCE IN FAVOR OF FLIGHT 93 CRASH: Eyewitnesses report seeing a crash and crash scene. Parts from flight 93 picked up and identified. DNA from identified passengers of flight 93 picked up and identified. Phone calls from flight 93 near alleged crash site. Testimony from United Airlines confirming that flight 93 crashed in shanksville. Personal effects identified as belonging to the passengers of flight 93 found in the debris that was also identified as belonging to flight 93. Crash scene investigators confirm the crash of flight 93. Cockpit voice recorder confirmed as belonging to flight 93. Flight 93 not found anywhere else in the world.

You forgot a negative kind of evidence, actually a follow-up to the last sentence. The passengers and crew have not turned up, alive.

 

[Slayhamlet]

What an insipid thread. I can't believe you guys are still entertaining this crap. A reminder of what you're dealing with here: Denialism^WP.

 

[R.Mackey]

I too have long since given up the "no plane crashed there" nonsense as Irreducible Delusion, but it is worth pointing out that since fill dirt averages 120 pounds per cubic foot, a ten-foot deep ditch, assuming 45 degree slope which is unreasonably narrow, need only be 33 ¹/₃ feet long to account for 100 tons of dirt.

And that assumes the aircraft would displace its own mass in dirt anyway, which is not at all required given the steepness of impact. Quite likely dirt would land more or less where it left, or that the aircraft would simply penetrate without pushing much of it anywhere.

The feebleness of the objection is yet another sign of Irreducible Delusion.

 

[TJM]

I thought YouTube videos weren't evidence of anything? Or is that only when it's convenient?

---

The max takeoff weight of a 757-200 is 255,000 lbs. The max takeoff weigh of a BAe 146 is no more than 95,000 lbs. The bigger plane is going to produce more debris.

They also very clearly state that papers were scattered up to 8 miles away. On the other hand, human remains and other non-paper debris (e.g., a burning seat cushion) from Flight 93 were found miles away from the alleged crash site (plus paper debris, which is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion).

Think about it - how could human remains get scattered that far? People weren't losing rib bones out the windows on the way down - it would have to happen after the impact. Is there a force that can carry a rib bone, or other human remains, 2 miles (or more) through the air? Although I doubt it, I'm not sure - I would have to calculate it.

PS - notice the extreme transparency of the investigators in the video. I would call that an example of normal, expected behavior.

I wasn't presenting a YouTube video as evidence. I was presenting it as a comparison. You're right about 1771 being smaller than 93. I am by no means an authority on plane crashes, but I think it's logical to assume that 93 being a heavier plane, released more energy than 1771 did upon impact and had the potential to throw heavier debris from the point of impact. This might be the reason why this so-called "rib bone" washed up in a marina. That story is here:

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010914scene0914p2.asp

It's from September 14th 2001 and contains many witness accounts of debris raining down and being discovered.