The Difference Between Science and Religion: How Would You Summarize It?

Or maybe better would be Mike Shermer's slide from the evolution/creationism debate I went to:

Science is about pursuing unaswered questions.
Religion is about having unquestioned answers.
I like that, too. It makes for a good bumper sticker or T-shirt. Though, I doubt it will be of use to the woos, themselves.

If you're looking for something that will tell people where they are going wrong, then I think you should point to the assumption of an infallible authority.
That would be attacking their most strongly defended areas. The need, for some people, to have faith in an authority is too great, for them to recognize the error in it. This tactic, I suspect, will only lead to more incredible bouts of cognitive dissonance. At least, that is what I see in various forums.
 
Science is about the questions about the universe we can answer
Religion is about the questions about the universe we cannot answer
 
No idea what this means.

Then you hate America.

Not flippant nor meaningless.

Of course it is. It goes back to my question, how to you tell if value/goal systems "work" or "fail"?

No it is simply a statement of fact.

I can't even parse this - it doesn't seem to make any sense?

I said that religion had to do with the values you live your life by and the goals you set for yourself, you said that science works and religion doesn't. So how can you tell whether your values and goals "work"?
 
By setting clearly definable goals and checking in later if they have been achieved. (I'm assuming that you're asking how we know if our values and goals work.)

Nick

But the point of religion is to define a specific goal for your life based on your values. It isn't just about reaching a goal, it is about finding the "right" goal from all the other ones in life (or none at all). How can you tell if that goal "works"?

That's more of what I was getting at, sorry if my wording was poor.
 
First, as I pointed out above (and you have conceded), morality and ethics is not the only subject of religion. Everything that is now considered the realm of natural science was once the realm of religion. A lot of it still is. (If you don't think it is, then why is "creationism" even mentioned in political debates or discussions of public education?)

Second, you're assuming that science does not address (and never will) ethics and morality. I think there's at least some overlap with science. (One good example of this is the best way to deal with teenage pregnancy and STDs. The faith-based solution, abstinence-only sex "education" has been proven to be less effective than conventional sex ed that teaches about condoms and such.) Religion merely retreats into the gaps.

I don't think you can distinguish religion and science based solely on the subject matter (i.e. the natural world vs. morality & ethics). It is about the evidence or lack thereof that leads you to your conclusions.

It's about how you get at what you think is the truth.

Yes, I agree that there is overlap when it comes to ethics, but I don't think that science can give us our values, our basic guiding principles. Science can inform us about how to act in most accordance with our values, but it doesn't empirically show which values "work".
 
You say that as if science is completely incapable of doing this.

Like I said, science can help inform us a little, but how do you empirically test values? I can't think of a situation where science by itself establishes ethical rules.

I do not think religion really has anything much to do with morality, except how they managed to be intertwined throughout much of history.

Er, okay, but religious people will disagree with you.

Morality has always been adjusted independently of religion, based on human needs and interests.

Yes, but I did not mean that religion is the only source of values, goals, etc.
 
How about slavery, then?
Today we believe it's wrong. So slavery in the bible must be explained. Google turns up some apologetics:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/368



Science doesn't have such apologetics.

If a scientist got something wrong, then science moves on -- possibly still acknowledging the brilliance of the scientist, but in no way reinterpreting his work to say things he didn't say. Science doesn't have to split hairs in the definitions of force and motion with the aim of showing that Newton was actually spot on -- if only people had understood him.

Similarly,
people can pick and choose which of Plato's ideas they accept and which they reject. Because no-one treats Plato religiously -- he is allowed to be fallible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece#Demographics



That all said, I'm not sure if Buddhists insist on Buddha being infallible. So maybe my argument needs some patching up.

Interesting, I have never heard of any Buddhist even using the term, it just doesn't really come up.

But still, this is looking at religion from the view of it being based on an infallible piece of literature, that is not how all religions work.
 
Clarifying a Point in Post 37

It is too late for me to edit post #37. But, I wish to change one word in the last paragraph to clarify my meaning. The word being replaces is struck out, here, with its replacement underlined next to it:

I do not think religion really has anything much to do with morality, except how they managed to be appear intertwined throughout much of history. Morality has always been adjusted independently of religion, based on human needs and interests.

Thank you.
 
Evidence based and non-evidence (or erroneous evidence interpretation) based belief systems.

Most of the claims made that one gets (X, Y, Z) from religion and not science are bogus unsupportable claims. For example, there is no evidence people need god beliefs to have 'meaning' in their lives and, as is being discussed, it is bogus that morals come from religion.
 
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Evidence based and non-evidence (or erroneous evidence interpretation) based belief systems.

Most of the claims made that one gets (X, Y, Z) from religion and not science are bogus unsupportable claims. For example, there is no evidence people need god beliefs to have 'meaning' in their lives and, as is being discussed, it is bogus that morals come from religion.

It depends what you mean by "morals come from religion". I don't think it would be bogus to say that some people get some of their morals from their religion, whereas it would be bogus to claim that religion is the only source of morality.

Are you suggesting that morals "come from" science?
 
How would you summarize the fundamental difference between science and religion (and other forms of "woo"), using only a few concise sentences?

I would say that one is particular methodology of discovery and the other is a bit of an umbrella term encompassing tenets, rituals, moral teaching, traditions, practices both personal and organised. Without concentrating on specific aspects of religion, it's very hard to answer the question without making generalisations which in many cases will not apply.
 
...snip...


I said that religion had to do with the values you live your life by and the goals you set for yourself, you said that science works and religion doesn't. So how can you tell whether your values and goals "work"?


You are still making no sense to me - I have no idea how your question is meant to relate to my statement of fact i.e. science works.
 
You are still making no sense to me - I have no idea how your question is meant to relate to my statement of fact i.e. science works.
TB adopts a common position. That is the separation of science and religion.

A bit like how me and my partner separate our responsibilities. She makes the small decisions; where we live, which school the kids go to; what we spend our money on and I make all the big decisions; who should be the next American president; whether Wayne Rooney is better up front on his own or playing in the hole.

TB considers (and he will correct me if wrong) that religion tells you what is ethical or moral and how you should behave. It does not veer into the scientific realm.

Of course in the past religion had us slaughtering innocents to ensure that there would be a good crop or the sun will come up. I dare say that over time areas currently considered within the religious realm will move to another areas.

I don't particularly have a problem with religions giving moral opinions. It is when they insist they are right and impinge on others (such as with sexuality or abortion) or when they stray from their cage into areas they do not belong, such as creationism) that problems start.

If they stuck to preaching morals to empty pews I would be happy.
 
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You are still making no sense to me - I have no idea how your question is meant to relate to my statement of fact i.e. science works.

It's about context - "science works" was an answer to what the difference is, therefore implying religion doesn't work. To say religion doesn't work appears to be assuming some kind of premise as to what religion is supposed to do but fails to. By the same standard, for "science works" to make sense, it needs to be established what it is supposed to do.
 
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Thanks Egg & Lothian - that makes more sense to me.

Religion does not do what it says it does on the packet, science does - that is the difference.
 
Yes, I agree that there is overlap when it comes to ethics, but I don't think that science can give us our values, our basic guiding principles. Science can inform us about how to act in most accordance with our values, but it doesn't empirically show which values "work".
ETA: In trying to answer the OP, that overlap shows that this isn't a sufficient point to distinguish between the two. (Remember, the OP wanted a quick and concise way of describing the differences. If your purported "difference" isn't actually different, it doesn't distinguish the two.


I don't think religion can "give us our values, our basic guiding principles" either. I think we evolved with a moral capacity (the same way we evolved a capacity for language), and the specific norms we learn are socialized by our upbringing--which need not have anything to do with religion.

Also, as pointed out, the track record of religion for inculcating guiding principles has been spotty at best.

I stand by my earlier example. We can all agree that we don't like unwanted teenage pregnancy and STDs. As an educational goal, we'd like to teach kids how to avoid these things. Conventional sex ed arms them with the correct and best information. Abstinence only sex ed does not. Approaching the problem scientifically, we can test the outcomes of these programs. Religion, in this case, motivates a choice by a bogus moral dictum (not part of our basic guiding principles or underlying beliefs of right and wrong), and will cling to abstinence only programs (because, according to them teenage/premarital sex is "wrong") regardless of or in spite of the evidence at hand. So which is a better moral guide in choosing the nature of sex ed?

Also, we're learning more about the brain and human behavior all the time. I suspect the questions that you say are in the bailiwick of religion only might someday be answered by science. (There was a time, no doubt, when other questions were deemed untouchable by science--human origins, for one.)

Finally, you're making the mistake that Skeptigirl rightly criticized: you seem to be saying that without religion there would be no values or basic guiding principles for living life. I, and plenty of other atheists and non-religionists do not live lives devoid of values. (For example, I'm a vegetarian and a pacifist--both based on moral convictions and having NOTHING to do with any religion or religious beliefs. I also have plenty of other purely secular values shared by most people--relating to family, duty, etc.)
 
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There are a number of creation events, and the order they are given in is not whimsical. It is based on reasoning and observation, which sometimes comes up with the wrong answer -- just like science. The writers put plants before the animals that eat plants. They fail to take into account that new varieties of plants came about after herbivores were eating the earlier plants. Thus they decided that trees came before all land/sea critters.

To take another example, assume the ancient Greeks, or Egyptians found old fossil bones of extinct animals, but didn't recognize them for what they were. Instead they used them to invest mythical creatures like Chimeras and Centaurs. Then it fits these creatures into it's religion (what we call Myths, since we generally are not followers of that ancient religion)

Later Science comes along and pieces the bones together more correctly, showing an very old earth, and extinct creatures like dinosaurs, and sabertooth tigers. But remember even science gets it wrong sometimes, for example the tail of a T-Rex was first thought to drag on the ground. (when I was a kid) Later (i.e. today) the tail is above ground, (see the new model at the Boston Museum of Science for example)
 
T. buddah said a mouthful. Beerina's #1 applies to scientific skepticism as well. There are Sylvia Brownes out there that want to decieve you and take your money.

Science works, but it hasn't totally worked yet. In fact, it could be said that it has caused us a lot of problems; some seemingly insurmountable, like the invention of nitrogen fertilizer, which has allowed a vast and temporary increase in the carrying capacity of the globe. Without science, no 6 billion plus people.

It's only temporary if you let politicians get in the way.



But the case could be made that religion works too.

It only works in the sense that it has adopted some rules that work in reality, such as "thou shalt not kill". But wrapping that in a lie that some god exists who told you not to do this is not a good way to go about it, as we have seen historically.


I do not lob softballs of "well, there's something good there", either to religion or to politics. Insofar as they overlap things that "work", it's almost coincidental.


Does anyone here think that if the whole world was atheist, there would be no cause for war?

Of course not. Religion and politics are two facets of the same larger reality: the evolution of memes that band people together in power structures that, by growing, thus "reproduce" the meme. Insofar as they are "correct" in that they adopt positions that "work", they are, as mentioned, nearly coincidental. However, many positions are actually somewhat harmful, and thus more akin to a parasite, but not one that kills its host. In this case, it means it doesn't shrink the population.


We are currently seeing a massive conflict between two locally dominant memes: Western society and Middle Eastern society.

Western society recognizes rule of law and rights to freedom and property, which is its real engine of power, though "democracy" and "Christianity" are often incorrectly touted.

Middle Eastern society uses their dominant religion, Islam, in much the way the West did in the middle ages with Christianity: as a parasitic meme that has managaed to evolve and gain control over the whole region. Internal mental models of reality involve a god who wants you to enforce rules. Looking at it externally, as Skinner might, you see a bunch of simple behaviors of killing off dissent, i.e. those with a different mental model.



Which will win? Clearly Western society is progressing much faster technologically. But they also have a slowing birth rate.

However, the meme itself is evolving, increasing the desire for immigrants to compensate.

But Middle Eastern society is evolving, too, expanding beyond the Middle East, it's meme spreading to many other cultures.


I predict Western society will win because it "rescues" people from a downtrodden land, whereas the other one merely induces a mental model switch, but leaves the person downtrodden, and hence, "rescuable" from downtrodden status.
 
That's it. I'm done with this simulation.


Computer, arch!






This simulation bores me. Run simulation Moriarty World-o-fun 3.














Don't wait up, kids.
 

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