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The Sensitive Issue of Circumcision

Thank you for understanding and addressing my actual statements. I am feeling more and more that it will be a non issue which makes me quite happy for my son.

You're welcome. I completely understand your position and concern. Parents are supposed to worry about their kids, that is your job. :) Like I said, I haven't encountered the questions you raised and I think it will be far less of a concern for your son.

At the same time, and I say this in the nicest possible way, I wanted to point out that those who feel anger or resentment over their parents decision to circumcised them shouldn't be dismissed. I think they have a legitimate gripe and should be listened to. In addition to some of the posters here, as just one example, there is this blog of a 15 year old boy in Az. He's been restoring and blogging about it since he was 13, though he has recently decided to stop blogging. Their numbers may be small but they are increasing and the men pursuing this are increasingly younger.
 
You're welcome. I completely understand your position and concern. Parents are supposed to worry about their kids, that is your job. :) Like I said, I haven't encountered the questions you raised and I think it will be far less of a concern for your son.

At the same time, and I say this in the nicest possible way, I wanted to point out that those who feel anger or resentment over their parents decision to circumcised them shouldn't be dismissed. I think they have a legitimate gripe and should be listened to. In addition to some of the posters here, as just one example, there is this blog of a 15 year old boy in Az. He's been restoring and blogging about it since he was 13, though he has recently decided to stop blogging. Their numbers may be small but they are increasing and the men pursuing this are increasingly younger.


Again thanks for understanding. And I do understand the point of the anger or resentment but in my mind there's something wrong beyond just the circumcizion in these people. I believe if someone is so focused on their penis they have body issues that have crossed over into obsessive. You can see from the vitriol in the blog that this is not a rational person.

I feel sorry for these people but I don't think my children are going to turn out this way. I think people who are hostile and resentful human beings will always find something to be upset about and to cast them self in a victimized role. Deciding that the boy is legitimate is one thing, you do want to validate the feelings. But when people want to share their feelings about their bodies with total strangers it belies neurosis in my humble opinion.

Like obese people who feel the need to let everyone know they are big and beautiful and proud of it. Obviously there's something else going on and I don't think they represent a healthy person.
 
truethat said:
And I do understand the point of the anger or resentment but in my mind there's something wrong beyond just the circumcizion in these people. I believe if someone is so focused on their penis they have body issues that have crossed over into obsessive.

1) The parents who insist on cutting their children's penises can't also be labeled as "excessive" in their focus on their baby's penis?

2) The (alleged) majority of women that turn men away because they lack some skin on their penis can't also be called "obsessive" over their focus on the penis?

Methinks you're arbitrarily using this term, or you use it easily.

Personally, I don't harbor "anger" or "resentment", really. But I do know that it hurts, first hand. No one can prove otherwise to me. Perhaps they can claim that babies don't "seem" to feel as much pain, but then, the baby can't really give a comprehensive report on what it feels in type 10 font with correct punctuation. I also don't see any reason to believe that the risks are outpaced by the benefit.

[...]But when people want to share their feelings about their bodies with total strangers it belies neurosis in my humble opinion.[...]
Hm. So when people want to share their feelings about their bodies with total strangers. I wonder if that also includes homosexuality, or ethnic expression... nah, can't possibly.

(Of course, sharing your layman's pseudo-psychoanalysis on the psyche of total strangers that you met on the internet with other total strangers on the internet is perfectly fine.)
 
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I feel sorry for these people but I don't think my children are going to turn out this way.

First I want to preface this by saying I am not posting this with the intention of saying, see this is what will happen to your kids because you circumcised them. Just like I don't think the boy you left intact will ever want to be circumcised. It's quite likely that this will never be discussed, especially with their mother. Also, don't read any harsh tone I ask these questions legitimately for purposes of discussion.

Again thanks for understanding. And I do understand the point of the anger or resentment but in my mind there's something wrong beyond just the circumcizion in these people. I believe if someone is so focused on their penis they have body issues that have crossed over into obsessive. You can see from the vitriol in the blog that this is not a rational person.

You see I don't think it is necessarily the case that there is something else causing this anger and resentment. Yes, there is a strong vitriol tone in his last entry but if you read through many of the past entries I think you'll see a more rational person who is simply trying to use his experiences to help change people's thinking on this topic. The most recent entry simply demonstrates his frustration with the fact that he feels that he isn't having enough impact on a subject he feels passionately about. I disagree with his self assessment though. Reading some of his comments I think he has done a lot to help others.

As far as focusing on body issues, how would foreskin restoration be any different from say getting braces as a teen. Kids spend years and braces and parents spend thousands of dollars to get that perfect smile. Does the amount of focus or effort people put into that mean they have obsessive body issues? Breast implants and labiaplasty are increasingly popular do those women have obsesive body issues?

I think people who are hostile and resentful human beings will always find something to be upset about and to cast them self in a victimized role. Deciding that the boy is legitimate is one thing, you do want to validate the feelings. But when people want to share their feelings about their bodies with total strangers it belies neurosis in my humble opinion.

That particular blog is just one example. In this new age of information technology sharing, discussing all range of issues is increasingly common. In some sense I think it's healthy people are talking about issues that they might not yet feel comfortable discussing in real life.

The issue of foreskin restoration has become a more frequently discussed topic amongst adults, and now even teens. I concede that it may only, at this time, include a minority of circumcised men but there numbers seem to be increasing. Message boards, mailing lists, and a whole cottage industry has sprung up to meet the demand. It has become a frequent enough point of discussion amongst members on this teen message board that they've made a sticky so that members can discuss techniques, results, and other related topics. Are all those just boys or men with other underlying problems?

Like obese people who feel the need to let everyone know they are big and beautiful and proud of it. Obviously there's something else going on and I don't think they represent a healthy person.

I think most men who were circumcised will not, in the end, have a problem with it but many might. From what I've read many simply feel violated, others don't like the cosmetic result, others have problems such as tight or painful erections (due to being cut way too tight). In fact, I distinctly remember some friends in grade school who offhandedly quipped how much it hurt when they got erections and 'ran out of skin'. But most men won't complain about such things, think about how hard it is to get a guy to go to the doctor. So perhaps these issue pass unnoticed. That doesn't mean they don't exist and perhaps the anonymity of the Internet allows men to discuss these issue more openly without fear. So I don't think there is necessarily 'something else' going on. These men and boys feel violated and it is there right to feel that way. They are doing something about it and sharing their experience. Perhaps a better question is how many people have to have a problem with this before people take notice? 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000? Is there a threshold when it transcends to a problem worthy of discussion?

I think this is why circumcision must be left only to the consenting adult. This allows for a guaranteed acceptable outcome. Intact boys can quickly and easily get circumcised but it's hard to go the other way.

Just out of curiosity, you feel that going through such a process indicates an obsessive problem. If one of your circumcised sons talked to you about this would you support him or dissuade him? Conversely, if your intact son wanted to get circumcised would you support him or dissuade him?
 
As far as focusing on body issues, how would foreskin restoration be any different from say getting braces as a teen. Kids spend years and braces and parents spend thousands of dollars to get that perfect smile. Does the amount of focus or effort people put into that mean they have obsessive body issues?

1.Breast implants and labiaplasty are increasingly popular do those women have obsesive body issues?

2.
Just out of curiosity, you feel that going through such a process indicates an obsessive problem. If one of your circumcised sons talked to you about this would you support him or dissuade him? Conversely, if your intact son wanted to get circumcised would you support him or dissuade him?

1. Yes unless its reconstructive due to mastectomy.


2. I doubt very much that I'd be the one they'd discuss this with as adult men. My kids are pretty solid when it comes to self esteem so I don't think this will be a problem whatsoever.

For what men decide that's their decision however the need to "share" issues always indicates to me an unnatural obsession with some sort of public approval. If you need others to confirm your feelings then you are neurotic in my opinion.

Think Carnie Wilson and her stomach stapling and subsequent playboy spread and Roseanne Barr's story of incest.
 
Again thanks for understanding. And I do understand the point of the anger or resentment but in my mind there's something wrong beyond just the circumcizion in these people. I believe if someone is so focused on their penis they have body issues that have crossed over into obsessive. You can see from the vitriol in the blog that this is not a rational person.

I would argue that that's one of the dangers of a culture that permits non-medical infant circumcision: a certain portion of the victims will come to realize what was done to them and why. A certain portion of those people will be unable to accept the fact.

I, for one, would have a difficult time getting over it if it had been done to me.

I feel sorry for these people but I don't think my children are going to turn out this way.

Neither did that guy's parents. That's the problem, one just never knows. That's why it's usually best to just leave things alone unless there's a really good reason not to.
 
1. Yes unless its reconstructive due to mastectomy.

What about my friend whose left breast developed significantly larger then her right? Was she neurotic and obsessive to have the larger one reduced so that it matched the other? That is not reconstructive.

For what men decide that's their decision however the need to "share" issues always indicates to me an unnatural obsession with some sort of public approval. If you need others to confirm your feelings then you are neurotic in my opinion.

Wow. just.. wow.

I'm really glad you're not MY mother.
 
1. Yes unless its reconstructive due to mastectomy.

Ok, I can agree with that how about the years and thousands many American parents spend on braces?

2. I doubt very much that I'd be the one they'd discuss this with as adult men. My kids are pretty solid when it comes to self esteem so I don't think this will be a problem whatsoever.

Nice dodge, let me rephrase the question. First, I agree that your kids likely wouldn't want to do either (restore or get circumcised), see second paragraph, but it does happen even if the numbers are relatively small. I was, of course, asking hypothetically so don't think this is about you or your choices but I do want to tease out this restoring/obsession thought. So if a circumcised man, who chooses to restore, have an obsession with body image? Does an intact man who chooses circumcision have an obsession with body image? The only real difference I see is that the man in the latter situation is the only one who really has a choice.

For what men decide that's their decision

On this we agree, which is why RIC should not be performed outside of clear and immediate therapeutic need. Because only then are you guaranteed an acceptable outcome.

however the need to "share" issues always indicates to me an unnatural obsession with some sort of public approval. If you need others to confirm your feelings then you are neurotic in my opinion.

I am not sure I agree here. People share their thoughts, feelings, and problems with others all the time; that's part of what makes us human. The big difference now is that we have a much wider audience and considering the relative anonymity the Internet affords us perhaps we are more open about certain things.
 
Sharing personal body issues is not the same as ideas and thoughts and feelings. TOTALLY different.
 
Sharing personal body issues is not the same as ideas and thoughts and feelings. TOTALLY different.

Not entirely true. Women who have survived breast cancer have often been prevailed upon to share their experiences with young women. I am sure if I thought about it for a bit longer I could think of other examples too.
 
I think if more people shared their worries about body image etc, there would be a lot fewer people around with worries about their body image...
 
I think if more people shared their worries about body image etc, there would be a lot fewer people around with worries about their body image...

...only if the people they talked to didn't think the body features they were concerned about (e.g., foreskin) were "gross".:)
 
Sharing personal body issues is not the same as ideas and thoughts and feelings. TOTALLY different.
Thank you for your professional opinion. I will take that into consideration for the future.
 
Again, congratulations on your feelings about your body. Why you feel the need to express them to me is beyond me.

In this context, probably because people like you insist on making sweeping generalizations that are not only wrong but also extremely damaging -- such as your ignorant comment suggesting that hardly any circumcised men would like to have their foreskin back.

So, here we have yet another circumcised man who does want it back. Get it?
 
I agree with this post. Regardless of the moralizing in here, I posted my honest concern. I don't sit around wondering every single day if I made the right choice. However when I've heard a woman talk about how "gross" they thought Billy's winkle was, it does cross my mind that this is what my kid is in for. Hopefully less people will do it and there'll be a mix.

The real crux of the matter here (and what most circ opponents here seem to fail at explaining to you) is that a parent has to weigh the possible psychological damage done by people who find their son's "winkie" "gross" and the possible psychological damage done to their son by knowing that he had a possibly very special part of him taken without his consent.

In my experience, the latter typically greatly outweighs the former. Primarily because if an adult doesn't like his foreskin he can elect to have it removed. He cannot elect to have it replaced.
 
Rocketdodger said:
Primarily because if an adult doesn't like his foreskin he can elect to have it removed. He cannot elect to have it replaced.
Out of curiosity, and at the risk of getting somewhat off topic, I wonder if this argument will lose it's ground once we learn to better and cheaply clone human flesh. :p
 
Out of curiosity, and at the risk of getting somewhat off topic, I wonder if this argument will lose it's ground once we learn to better and cheaply clone human flesh. :p

Absolutely it will loose ground. If the operation was reversible then there wouldn't be any problem!
 
In this context, probably because people like you insist on making sweeping generalizations that are not only wrong but also extremely damaging -- such as your ignorant comment suggesting that hardly any circumcised men would like to have their foreskin back.

So, here we have yet another circumcised man who does want it back. Get it?


Thank you. Of course, sharing your feelings about this is a sign of neurosis.
 

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