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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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Copy and paste from "enthusiast" John Green's review:

"Much of the book is a transcript of what people had to say about Roger Patterson, mostly, but by no means entirely, unfavorable things, and Long makes clear that he thought that would have been enough to disprove the film even if he had never interviewed the man who claimed to have worn the suit or the man who claimed to have made it.

He did interview those men, however, and made a further fatal mistake by putting pictures in the book. Bob Heironimus is shown to be a typical human, with legs too long and arms to short to match the creature in the film, and the type of suit the owner of Morris Costumes claims he sold Patterson is a typical gorilla costume not in the least like what the movie shows.

Long does have witnesses who say that Heironimus had a long history of claiming to have been the "man in the suit" and that they once saw such a suit in his car, but they make no connection to Patterson, there is only Heironimus' word on that.

And Long has fitted blinders on himself so closely that he can see nothing wrong with his two key witnesses describing, with many specific details, two totally different suits--a three-piece suit made of raw horsehide and a six-piece suit made of cloth. Philip Morris' story was apparently a last-minute addition after the book was finished. It would have been to Long's credit that he chose to add material so damaging to the case he was trying to make, except that he apparently thought he was making the case stronger.

Long obviously worked hard on his book and I learned some things from it, so perhaps I should feel sorry for him being so easily taken in. It is his own fault however. Had he spent less time admiring of his own opinions and not been so contemptuous of the work of those who investigated the film in the beginning and those who have studied it since he could easily have avoided making such a fool of himself."

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/reviews/long.htm
 
This is the Morris mask BH used in the reenactment:

images.jpg


And the reenactment (click to activate):

 
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Diogenes said:
One of the more astute members over at BFF just declared:

" No suit, No hoax .. "

That same member, also said, in response to Verne Langdon saying that, compared to a John Chambers suit, Patty was a 'Crummy suit':
nightscream said:
You seem to be the only one with that particular view. It does not matter that you are from the "other side of the spectrum", I am still your customer and such a statement as above makes me laugh for sure. The top work of your time was not impressive to say the least. People cannot recreate the Patterson film to this day including yourself and Chambers if he was still alive. You are flattering yourself if you think that the Planet of the Apes costumes are even half as good as the Patterson film subject.

&

nightscream said:
So if the Patterson suit is so crummy, why is it that the general consensus is that the work of your time, including yours, was much much crummier? Hmmm?!? And I'm sure you've seen the Patterson suit yourself and have pictures of it to show us all?


http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=23405&view=findpost&p=482695
 
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As usual you sound like a jackass!

Nice repsonse Crow....per your usual style you have successfully avoided attacking my argument and instead have attacked me....good form.

Listen....Captain Cranky Puss....as seems standard for Bigfoot Nation you have once again attributed YOUR abilities,in this case your power of total recall from 40 years ago to another person....which.....now wait for it...

Was my point.

Bigfoot Nation does this at every turn....

"I wouldn't be able to shoot one"

Why would anyone think to give their hoax suit breasts...I wouldn't have bothered with that"

"I wouldn't spend all day hoaxing prints"

...and on and on and on ad nauseum...here's the thing Crow....just because you can remember everything from a trip you took 40 years ago means nothing with regards to whether another person can or cannot do the same.

One last thing Mr Pissy Pants go ahead and assume that this is a PGF discussion not an outlet for those mood swings brought on by your Irritable Bowel Syndrome...so although I'm sure you'll find it difficult...try to stay on topic here Ok?
 
If one of those 2001 apes was filmed in the way Patty was filmed, it would have been obvious to folks that it was a fake ape, right?

Of course, it wasn't even obvious to folks when they saw 2001...
 
Folks - this thread has been running pretty much continuously for over 3 years! And it has grown a tad unwieldy to say the least. My intention is to make a split from it to a new thread from some point in the last 2 weeks - any suggestions where would be a good place to make such a split would be much appreciated!
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
LAL said:
Is this any more baseless and "fantasious" than a special delivery of tablets on Mt. Sinai or the book of Deuteronomy suddenly showing up in a temple just when it was needed? Archaeologists have known for decades there's no historical reality to the Exodus and no evidence the Israelites were ever in Egypt, but the story is a big part of three major religions. D. Jeffery Meldrum seems to recognize this:
Is the angel Moroni more or less nonsensical than the angels who appeared to Mary, or to sheep herders or who showed up in a burning bush?
The Bible is a mixture of myths from various sources and historical (as well as semi-historical) accounts with varied amounts of fiction, written by many individuals. Some places cited at the Bible are real, some people were real, some accounts are of real facts. The Book of Mormon comes from a single source - J. Smith. The book of Mormon adds to the Bible an extra big layer of claims that are not supported by evidence. The core of these claims is tested every time archeologists work at North America, every time geneticists check DNA from Native Americans and every time their languages and cultures are studied. So far, no reliable evidences were found. If you want to learn more about it, please use the search function (restrict your search to the Religion and Philosophy subforum). There are a number of very good threads on this subject, with the participation of Mormons.
LAL said:
Even Stephen Jay Gould advocated keeping religious traditions. About 50% of scientists profess some sort of religion. If we're to throw out their work because of a belief in unsupported mythology, we might be in trouble.
You just built a false dichotomy.
One thing is to tender some sort of religion or to feel somehow culturally linked to one. The use of poor methodology to defend the veracity of a religious text is a completely different thing. That's the sort of work that can be throw out.
LAL said:
Once again, those who already tender a belief are more prone to embrace a new one. "(6) Argumentum Ad-hominem: Shoot the messenger fallacy.
Nope. Saying an individual is using poor methodology and biased analysis is not an ad hom, since person is not being attacked. My critics are directed towards what I consider to be poor methodology, and this includes taking the literal veracity of a religious text as the immutable starting point and then start looking for reasons to prove it correct (or not wrong). It is an analogy with the way I see his bigfoot research- the starting point (bigfeet are real) is based on belief, not in good reliable evidence and is not subject to change. No, he is not alone, many a footer do the same thing.

LAL said:
You think his evidence is of poor quality, but he's examined prints in situ and has circa 200 casts in his collection. You see weak evidence, he sees a pattern. He's scanned many of the casts and they're available for virtual examination on the Internet. He's an expert in primate foot anatomy. I don't much care if he wears crystals and douses on the weekends as long as he keeps it out of his lab.
He may be an expert, but the evidence (or the lack of) indicates he is wrong when it comes to bigfeet being real.
He examined and scanned all those casts and obtained exactly what? Has he found two with the same "dermals"? Has he found "dermals" which can not be explained as casting artifacts?

He used evidences suspected of being a hoax (PGF and the casts produced by Paterson) as the backbone of his paper. This is weak evidence and poor data handling IMHO.

I see a pattern too. Weak evidence (misidentifications and hoaxes included) accepted as reliable pieces of evidences and being used to build flawed reasonings and conclusions. Belief creating analysis bias. Even in the highly unlikely case of bigfeet being real the methodology he is using will still be poor.

LAL said:
Do you have links to creationist comments on Cryptomondo and elsewhere? I'd like to see if I recognize any of the SNs.

Here's two of them, you will find more of after some Googling if you want.
http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/bf-me/
http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=22995&st=33

LAL said:
Correa seems to have a problem with Mormonism.
No. I have "a problem" with religious fundamentalism and pseudoscience.
 
If investigators don't use sightings, sign and vocalizations as indicators of possible activity in an area, just what are they supposed to use?

And elephant corpse is reduced to a dark greasy spot in four days, a deer (as seen on TV) becomes a few scattered bones in less than a week. I know of exactly one report, made years later, where a body was conveniently located next to a trail. Sick and dying animals hole up, they don't tend to die out in the open where they can be found.

Most sightings are accidental and the witness too startled or too slow to grab a camera even if there's one handy. There are numerous shots of dark shadowy things that may or may not be sasquatches. A friend set up a trail cam in a remote area where there've been strange happenings and got blurry pictures of <drumroll>...........blobhunters.

Any advice on how to get NatGeo quality video would be greatly appreciated.

See Lu your response is reflective of the problem. I say "A big stinky pile of recently deceased...Bigfeetsus" and you naturally assume that I meant stumbling upon a Hairy Biped of Unusual Size that died of natural causes.

Red Shirted Bigfoot Nation Ensign#1- So you have a plan to nab a Bigfeetsus?

Red Shirted Bigfoot Nation Ensign#2- Yep,I've decided to wait in a tree stand until one drops dead of a heart attack directly below me.

Red Shirted Bigfoot Nation Ensign#1- Hey that sounds promising...good luck.


Silly Lu...no I meant....locate a Bigfeetsus,administer a lethal gunshot,carve it into easy to carry pieces and than contact someone outside of Bigfoot Nation's circle of trust to examine it.

A...B-O-D-Y....by whatever means necessary...that's what Bigfoot Nation needs Lu.....this would corroborate all the spooky tales, feetprints, arseprints, tree knocking, scary screams in the dark of night and PGF.

The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. The straight line in this instance...would be to go on a Bigfeet Hunt...wouldn't you agree Lu?
 
Any advice on how to get NatGeo quality video would be greatly appreciated.

How about a series of cameras designed to capture video in areas where Bigfeet are supposedly out and about. I read all sorts of stories of bigfeet investigators hearing howling, breaking branches, rubbing sticks, etc. but not one of these organizations set up low light video cameras that catch the bigfeet in the act. The Buttprint (skookhum or however you spell it) is the same way. They set out bait but don't bother to video the bait trap. Exactly what kind of amateurish organization is conducting this science? It seems to me the reason they chose not to videotape the trap is because they wanted to present some sort of evidence and a video camera would have revealed the true source of the buttprint.
 
And elephant corpse is reduced to a dark greasy spot in four days, a deer (as seen on TV) becomes a few scattered bones in less than a week. I know of exactly one report, made years later, where a body was conveniently located next to a trail. Sick and dying animals hole up, they don't tend to die out in the open where they can be found.

As one who used to spend a great deal of time outdoors I find this argument extremely weak. It is not uncommon to find remains of animals if you actually spend time outdoors as opposed to sitting at a keyboard. Skulls especially seem to last a while in nature as well as rib bones, etc. The whole argument that bigfeet go off to die where they won't be found is also bogus. Accidents happen to animals as well as people. Slips and falls should knock off a number of older bigfeet every year leaving their carcass in the open.

Since bigfeet are reported coast to coast someone would have stumbled across a carcass by now.
 
I just think it's interesting these two "hoaxers" came up with the same IM index for their creatures in a time when only Australopithecus africanus was known (was the scientific establishment resistant to Dart's finds or what?) and that only from skulls. Lord Zuckerman thought it was an ape."

Wait a sec...I thought early it was "approximately the same" and now it is "the same". Which is it? Perhaps you can provide the numbers as well do back up the claim.
 
Darat you are going to lop-off the Holy Grail of Bigfoot threads?

This thread which shines like a beacon upon the highest hill, emitting rays of wisdom and hope to a world filled with blind emotion?

Parcher is now going to have to link to the old thread, instead of just saying 'please read the thread'.
 
Yep, this thread shines like a bacon upon the highest hill...

And we have not seen bigfoot throwing a pig yet!
 
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I once scanned all the drawings from Roger's book and posted them on BFF if anyone wants to see more. I haven't found the thread yet, but I did find this:

post-35-1136074155.gif


Maybe Morris' early and later suits were better.
 
Here's an interesting find...

"A Big Find: Huge fossilized footprint found"

http://www.herald-citizen.com/index.cfm?event=news.view&id=158FD6BA-19B9-E2E2-6710A84BD9BC8C58


An excerpt from the article...


After studying it closely, Jackson is still unsure of what the footprint is from, but whatever it was, it was big.

"This is 11 inches across and 15 inches (long). And my foot's about four and a half by about 10," he said.



Perhaps the footprint is just a human footprint....but, if it isn't....:D...
 
14.5" measured diagonally from edge of cast to edge of cast. (Fossil)

It's just like a bigfooter to dig that sucker up and hang it on the wall.
 
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Getting back to the "IM index". Since LAL was not going to provide numbers, I chose to look at Wikipedia. According to it, Meldrum states his IM index is 80-90. That is a wide range to make it "the same as". Most important is that the average human is 72.

I like numbers and decided to measure some of the frames. I got around 79-80 on most of my measurements. This seems to agree with Meldrum's low end value. However, I tried to do the same with Bob in the Morris suit and I got...79! This does not mean much because we don't know if the subjects are co-planar and these will throw off any meaningful measurement. Plus, my measurement system was crude at best. However, the location of the upper end of the Humerus could easily be thrown off by suit padding in the shoulders. This would make the IM value higher than it would be for the person in the suit.

One other thing is that there must be a margin for error somewhere. This is why I asked for the actual measurements. Exactly, how much did Meldrum, et. al. allow for possible error? A range of 80-90 indicates a large margin of error IMO and it easily could go the other way to the more human measurement of 72.
 
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