Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[LAL]

Wait, you're not still convinced that there's any truth to the Minnesota Iceman story are you? In any case, you should check out the JREF thread about the Iceman.

I think Hansen was telling the truth; I just don't know about what. Have you noticed the differences between Langdon's account of the modelmaking and Hansen's? Just who did plant the hairs?

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=23516&view=findpost&p=484270

I have no desire to get into another brawl on JREF. This one's enough.

The problem isn't his faith, it's how he acts when the evidence doesn't support his beliefs, as noted here and here. And let's not forget his apparent back-tracking.

So you're going by JREF cherry pickers? I don't remember my exact wording on everything I've ever said either. Correa seems to have a problem with Mormonism. I don't think its stories are any sillier than those of any of the other great religions (yak butter, anyone?)
Did you really listen to the interview with Melissa you linked to earlier? I've watched my tape of Best Evidence about 5 1/2 times now and he certainly seemed to stand by his findings on the SC there even though he worded them a bit cautiously as a good scientist should.

That's the first time I've seen the high end costume in motion. It is to laugh.

 

[LAL]

Please show the exact measurements made by Napier and Steindorf and your source for that info, measurements and source for A. africanus, and source for correlation of A. africanus, Patterson/Gimlin hoax, and Minnesota Iceman gaff.

Please tell us "yes" or "no" if an "I just think it's interesting" is an indication that you think it's possible that the Patterson/Gimlin hoax and Minnesota Iceman gaff are in fact representatives of relict A. africanus.

Also, do you think by extension that Bigfoot as represented by these examples is a partial brachiator?

Nope, and I'm not going to do your homework for you. If I can find the IM information, so can you.

Africanus? Lucy was afarensis. Africanus was only known from skulls and afarensis hadn't been discovered yet.

We know from the fossil record there were bipedal primates at least 6-9 mya. It's been assumed we're the only ones left, but if the "wildmen" of the world still exist some could be offshoots from the line that led to humans rather than being regressed great apes. Bipedalism came before knuckle and fist walking.

The flexible feet and long arms could be arboreal adaptations that weren't lost any more than those of mountain gorillas were when they became too heavy for life in the trees.

I don't think the MIM (if real) and the sasquatch would necessarily be the same species, but they could have descended from Australopithecines. The IM index isn't ape any more than it's human.

 

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

I think Hansen was telling the truth; I just don't know about what. Have you noticed the differences between Langdon's account of the modelmaking and Hansen's? Just who did plant the hairs?

Did you listen to the Langdon podcast? That should answer your question.

So you're going by JREF cherry pickers?

No, I'm going by the original sources they provided.

Did you really listen to the interview with Melissa you linked to earlier?

Yes. I can even provide the notes I jotted down while listening.

I've watched my tape of Best Evidence about 5 1/2 times now and he certainly seemed to stand by his findings on the SC there even though he worded them a bit cautiously as a good scientist should.

Oh, I'm not doubting that he still supports the Skookum cast; I'm just pointing out that he seems to be making it seem like he doesn't find it as compelling as he originally said he did.

 

[LAL]

Well Bob H seems to have spent a lot of time at the Idle Hours Tavern drinking alcohol. Alcohol is not known for having a positive effect on brain function especially memory and the ability to remember so perhaps that should be taken into account.

But there are places I went only once 40 years ago that I could and have been able to tell how far thoseplaces were, how long it took to get there and the lay of the land at the time.

As for the distances concerning Bluff Creek 4 or 5 miles is a far cry from 20.

He told Long they drove about three miles out of Willow Creek and turned right on Bluff Creek Road. That 20 miles to the site was up a winding dirt road.

He should have looked at a map.

 

[LAL]

Did you listen to the Langdon podcast? That should answer your question.

I read the post on BFF. Did you read mine? Is the podcast different? I'm not through downloading yet.

 

[kitakaze]

He told Long they drove about three miles out of Willow Creek and turned right on Bluff Creek Road. That 20 miles to the site was up a winding dirt road.

He should have looked at a map.

This is supposed to make me think Heironimus is a fraud? Wow. Why should he look at a map? He was asked for what he remembered.

 

[kitakaze]

Nope, and I'm not going to do your homework for you. If I can find the IM information, so can you.

Ah. The old "I'm not doing you're homework for you," source refusal. Could you at least give me the source that first correlated those 88 IM idices?

Africanus? Lucy was afarensis. Africanus was only known from skulls and afarensis hadn't been discovered yet.

I'm sorry, were you discussing Lucy and A. afarensis? I failed to note the previous post where you were doing that. Which one was that, again?

It's been assumed we're the only ones left, but if the "wildmen" of the world still exist some could be offshoots from the line that led to humans rather than being regressed great apes.

That sounds like speculation that might have a purpose if we had a specimen of a 'wildman' to consider. As it stands, I have as much reason to speculate Bigfoot's lineage as the Grey's home planet or the true message of visiting angels.

I don't think the MIM (if real) and the sasquatch would necessarily be the same species, but they could have descended from Australopithecines. The IM index isn't ape any more than it's human.

Got it. PG hoax and MIM gaff maybe not same species but maybe both descendants of an australopithecine.

 

[Mad Hom]

Oh, good grief. Do you think no one's out there trying? Maybe you should be telling the field researchers how much more time and money they need to spend and what they're doing wrong.

What they're doing wrong?!?!?

Well for starters how about accepting feetprints,arseprints,unknown knocking and spooky howls in the night as useful when what is absolutely necessary to crack this caper is either...

A.) A big stinky pile of recently deceased......Bigfeetsus!!

or...

B.) Clear closeup video of a Bigfeetsus tearing the hind leg off of an elk and beating it to death with it.....or catching a salmon in their mouth or throwing a pig or some other such activity that couldn't be easily accredited to a schmoe in a silly suit.

Nests,arsecasts,feetprints,spooky howls in the night,campfire stories,broken tree limbs,trackways and most importantly 40 year old vague,doctored up films......are irrelevant until Bigfoot Nation removes their skulls from their butts and produces an actual creature to have made or done any of it.

 

[mangler]

“He told Long they drove about three miles out of Willow Creek and turned right on Bluff Creek Road. That 20 miles to the site was up a winding dirt road.” Lu

Switch Willow Creek for Orleans and he’s spot on perfect. Take the Cedar Camp Road to Cedar Camp dropped down to the NW onto the old road that split Dog Creek and Deer Lick Creek. Over the East Fork then Bluff Creek and your at Louse Camp, about 20 miles.

All those towns are the same, look the same, same kind of people. Mill towns mining towns, they’re all the same in the west, doesn’t even matter what state your in.


m

 

[manofthesea]

Dumpyfoot

What is the current status of the Morris suit? Who has possession of it?
I bleev that a controlled recreation of the PGF under the same circumstances as the original should be undertaken. That means taking the most likely information and applying to this recreation. If Bob H. is the most likely culprit to have worn the possible suit, then the recreation should be based on his information. The internals of the possible suit should be recreated exactly. Such as boots, hipboots, helmets, or whatever. Use a person with the same physical build of Bob H. at the time. Film the subject under the same circumstances and distances. Use the same camera and film also.

Approach Mythbusters about conducting this recreation. A thorough background investigation should also be presented. Information such as the precise filming dates and processing dates and locations, provided by Bob H.
A total 'come clean' episode. That is, if it's really a hoax.
Who knows, Mythbusters might just stumble across an older Patty themselves, reminiscing of the two young mavericks who visually captured her earlier.

 

[manofthesea]

Concerning the Owen Caddy enhancements of the PGF creature, I think they're fantastic. With his presumed knowledge and study of bigfoot, I'd have to assume that his recreations are close to actual. Granted, it appears that some creative liberty may have been applied to the perceived creature in the PGF, the features should be common amongst northwest bigfeet. I think that these current representations of the PGF creature should be allowed to represent the contemporary bigfoot.

 

[captain koolaid]

Oh, good grief. Do you think no one's out there trying? Maybe you should be telling the field researchers how much more time and money they need to spend and what they're doing wrong.

No problem. But Footers won't listen, as their closed minds will not accept the awful truth. What they are doing wrong is assuming that Bigfoots bury their dead, or are transdimensional, or that mere garden variety predators are depriving them of corpses.

What is really, truly taking place, is that Bigfoot is not actually the top of the food chain. They are close to extinction, and all bodies rapidly consumed by the living theropod Dinosaurs. They are the #1 prey of the ambush predators, and the bodies are swiftly consumed by the scavengers.

If Footers expect to bag a Sasquatch body, they need to obtain some heavy firepower, and take out the Rex's that are eating them. It's not a job for the faint hearted. I have a dreadful suspicion that Creekfreak may have met the same fate as Cooper. He is Spinosaur dung.

 

[Crowlogic]

Crow feel free to refrain from applying your innate mutant GPS ability to other people. Simply because you have a knack for remembering how many miles it is to the McGillicutty's mailbox at mile marker 483 along obscure Highway 40-11-Hundred and how long by rickshaw it would take to get their if travelling into a 15 mph headwind has absolutely.....zero. ... nada... zip zilch....NO bearing whatsoever on Bob H's inability to do the same.

As usual you sound like a jackass!

 

[Crowlogic]

That's fantastic! What's your point?

You know what they both are? They're both short. If it was on foot I'd definitely remember such a difference in distance but if I was in a vehicle and talking with someone 20 miles could easily whip by and feel like 4 or 5 miles.

Maybe I'd be inclined to place emphasis on this if one: I really loved Patty and wanted evil Heironimus to go away. Or two: I hadn't seen him in three separate instances of Heironimus' involvement with Patterson and Gimlin, didn't know he lives on the same street as Gimlin with whom he is friends, and hadn't noted that he walks just like Patty.

You feel free to take no issue with that and consider it all just a really big fluke.

Bob H evil? Is that one of your 28 PGF I know's? Bob's not evil he's just drawn that way. However his story is IMO not tight enough to put him in the suit. Hollywood provided the mime.

 

[Crowlogic]

What is the current status of the Morris suit? Who has possession of it?
I bleev that a controlled recreation of the PGF under the same circumstances as the original should be undertaken. That means taking the most likely information and applying to this recreation. If Bob H. is the most likely culprit to have worn the possible suit, then the recreation should be based on his information. The internals of the possible suit should be recreated exactly. Such as boots, hipboots, helmets, or whatever. Use a person with the same physical build of Bob H. at the time. Film the subject under the same circumstances and distances. Use the same camera and film also.

Approach Mythbusters about conducting this recreation. A thorough background investigation should also be presented. Information such as the precise filming dates and processing dates and locations, provided by Bob H.
A total 'come clean' episode. That is, if it's really a hoax.
Who knows, Mythbusters might just stumble across an older Patty themselves, reminiscing of the two young mavericks who visually captured her earlier.

Have you see the Morris recreation? Its awfull.

 

[LAL]

What they're doing wrong?!?!?

Well for starters how about accepting feetprints,arseprints,unknown knocking and spooky howls in the night as useful when what is absolutely necessary to crack this caper is either...

If investigators don't use sightings, sign and vocalizations as indicators of possible activity in an area, just what are they supposed to use?

And elephant corpse is reduced to a dark greasy spot in four days, a deer (as seen on TV) becomes a few scattered bones in less than a week. I know of exactly one report, made years later, where a body was conveniently located next to a trail. Sick and dying animals hole up, they don't tend to die out in the open where they can be found.

Most sightings are accidental and the witness too startled or too slow to grab a camera even if there's one handy. There are numerous shots of dark shadowy things that may or may not be sasquatches. A friend set up a trail cam in a remote area where there've been strange happenings and got blurry pictures of <drumroll>...........blobhunters.

Any advice on how to get NatGeo quality video would be greatly appreciated.

 

[LAL]

Concerning the Owen Caddy enhancements of the PGF creature, I think they're fantastic. With his presumed knowledge and study of bigfoot, I'd have to assume that his recreations are close to actual. Granted, it appears that some creative liberty may have been applied to the perceived creature in the PGF, the features should be common amongst northwest bigfeet. I think that these current representations of the PGF creature should be allowed to represent the contemporary bigfoot.

Wow! Statements like that will get you mocked out of here, but I tend to agree.

The rather amateurish drawing I can't find in MQ resembles pursed lip expression (where did you find that, Bill?). I have some shots from one of Owen's presentations that I can't post, but they make it clear the face is mobile and expressing something other than what Murphy and Travers saw. The everted lip, dreamy Patty image needs to be dropped.

A number of reports mention thin lips where they're mentioned at all.

 

[LAL]

Ah. The old "I'm not doing you're homework for you," source refusal. Could you at least give me the source that first correlated those 88 IM idices?

Me.

I'm sorry, were you discussing Lucy and A. afarensis? I failed to note the previous post where you were doing that. Which one was that, again?

I thought I made this clear above: "Measurement on the bones is the only way to be completely accurate, but a good approximation can be done from photos. John Green and Jeff Meldrum used frame 52, Ruben Steindorf reverse kinematics and John Napier a "laid out" picture of Hansen's exhibit. We have Lucy's bones, but Napier didn't.

I just think it's interesting these two "hoaxers" came up with the same IM index for their creatures in a time when only Australopithecus africanus was known (was the scientific establishment resistant to Dart's finds or what?) and that only from skulls. Lord Zuckerman thought it was an ape."

It appears you got them mixed up and are now doing a little blame-shifting. There are several (8?) species of australopiths counting the robust ones (AKA Paranthropus) but only A. africanuss was known (skulls only) when Napier dismissed the MIM as a ridiculous mixture of ape and human features. But that's exactly what the australopiths were. They were habitual bipeds with long arms and a rolling sort of gait. The prints in the Laetoli trackway were humanish but with a semi-opposed toe.

Napier wrote on the MIM a year or two before the discovery of Lucy's knee, as I recall.

That sounds like speculation that might have a purpose if we had a specimen of a 'wildman' to consider. As it stands, I have as much reason to speculate Bigfoot's lineage as the Grey's home planet or the true message of visiting angels.

With a specimen the DNA should show the lineage. Gigantopithecus has size going for it as a sasquatch ancestor, but there's nothing below the jaw there either. Hair and DNA analysis point to the human/gorilla/chimpanzee group and Giganto is thought to be an orangutan relative so what's wrong where? Maybe Giganto isn't that closely related to orangs or it isn't an ancestor.

Got it. PG hoax and MIM gaff maybe not same species but maybe both descendants of an australopithecine.

If real, why not? We are. I'm not convinced either were hoaxes, but if they were, isn't it interesting the perpetrators independently came up with such similar features? Krantz thought the MIM, if shot in this country, was a juvenile sasquatch. He barely missed seeing the exhibit in person.

But then maybe Patterson and Hansen had a factory in Hollywood and were collaborating in churning out hoaxes.

Were you seriously suggesting that an "enthusiast" can't do good research? Would Miller's article have been acceptable if it agreed with your conclusions?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Concerning the Owen Caddy enhancements of the PGF creature, I think they're fantastic. With his presumed knowledge and study of bigfoot, I'd have to assume that his recreations are close to actual. ......

And no one can show otherwise....

When you are making stuff up, the expertise is as good as it gets ...

Now, if we can just find a specimen, we can see how close he is...

 

[LAL]

“He told Long they drove about three miles out of Willow Creek and turned right on Bluff Creek Road. That 20 miles to the site was up a winding dirt road.” Lu

Switch Willow Creek for Orleans and he’s spot on perfect. Take the Cedar Camp Road to Cedar Camp dropped down to the NW onto the old road that split Dog Creek and Deer Lick Creek. Over the East Fork then Bluff Creek and your at Louse Camp, about 20 miles.

All those towns are the same, look the same, same kind of people. Mill towns mining towns, they’re all the same in the west, doesn’t even matter what state your in.


m

So you're saying he might have got the town wrong but it's still 20 miles?