Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[bio]

You are backtracking from you claiming the fire fighters could have used the elevators to go up and fight the fires quicker than climbing the stairs.

How were they going to fight the fires once they got there in the elevator?

basement bombs hampered fire efforts for three reasons:
1) they split the firefighters up
2) the elevators were inoperable. I can understand why the elevators in ZONE THREE were inoperable since the plane cut the cables. but the how come the elevators in ZONE ONE were inoperable? a plane did not cut their cables.
3) the engineering rooms were rendered inoperable. Mr. Mcquaids testimony on 91st floor says he heard explosion BELOW him in the mechanical room. the mechanical room in the basement B2-3 level. and the mechanical room on the 22nd floor. Just a coincidence? mechanical rooms are responsible for pumping water from the basement upwards throughout the building. that means water could not be pumped up to the fire zone.
4) the electricity was knocked out in the building. the cave-in in the PATH system knocked out an electrical back up system. the elevators were run by electric motors.

...and of course then there is the obvious explosives were used to weaken the structure.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

basement bombs hampered fire efforts for three reasons:
1) they split the firefighters up

Um... what? You have two towers being struck by planes, you had evacuations of the towers underway. Part of their job was to ensure people from all floors evacuated safely, not just those above the impact zones.... is one single group supposed to accomplish this?

3) the engineering rooms were rendered inoperable. Mr. Mcquaids testimony on 91st floor says he heard explosion BELOW him in the mechanical room. the mechanical room in the basement B2-3 level. and the mechanical room on the 22nd floor. Just a coincidence? mechanical rooms are responsible for pumping water from the basement upwards throughout the building. that means water could not be pumped up to the fire zone.

I assume you're referring to testimony similar to this:
Source

91st floor
Mike McQuaid, the electrician installing fire alarms, was sure he knew what he was feeling: an exploding transformer, from a machine room somewhere below the 91st floor. Nothing else could rock the place with such power.

Being only just below the impact zone of the first plane, the damage and effects are quite consistent with the plane impact, the effects from the impact alone were felt almost globally inside the towers. If they truly are explosive as you insinuate, they sure made a hell of a timing considering this happened at the moment of the impacts.

Here's a more detailed account:
Source

91ST FLOOR
Mike McQuaid, survivor
Fire Alarm Installer

Mr. McQuaid was on the 91st floor of the north tower when the first plane hit. This put him just below the impact zone, which was the 94th floor to the 98 floor. He is not counted among the 18 who got out alive from at or above the impact zone. But his story describes the conditions just below impact.

I was on the south side of 91. We were installing fire alarms. There were five of us in my crew. The plane came in from the north side. I could look out and see the Statue of Liberty. The floor was only 25 percent occupied. Silverstein [the company that leased the towers] was going to take it over. There were also a couple of artists on the floor. They have some kind of artists. A big open area.

I was talking to someone from American Bureau of Shipping [also on 91st floor]. I hear this explosion, like a transformer below. What the hell was that? The whole place shook. The hallway started filling up with smoke. I started screaming for the rest of my crew to come out. One of them emerged with a cut on his head. He says he got knocked out, and the smoke woke him up. This guy later died in the hospital, some two months later, but he seemed fine at the time.

We went to the stairwell. It was the one across from the men's room on 91. The northwest stairwell. One of my crew went back for his phone. I yelled into the offices of American Bureau of Shipping. Is anybody else in there? A woman with a red hat came out and said, ``I'm the last one out.'' We went out and into the stairwell.

The first thing I noticed was that no one was coming down the stairs. I also noticed the Sheetrock on the interior of the stairwell on his floor had been knocked off the walls so thoroughly that the steel behind it was showing. The walls are made of four or five sheets of 5/8 inch Sheetrock, which I think is quite strong. The stairwell was dark black and it looked like it was blocked above me, although I can't see much because of the dark.

On 86, I stopped to yell out into the hallway to make sure everyone was out. My aunt works part time for Julien Studley on that floor, and I would have walked through the office if that day had been one of her workdays. If it had been a Monday, I would have had to go and look for her.

Around 82, I and my partner find someone stuck in the elevators between floors -- a Japanese guy. Me and my partner, Anthony, were trying to pull apart the elevator doors, but the guys inside were like slapping our hands. They didn't want the electricians to open the doors for fear of dislodging the elevator. They preferred to wait for rescuers.

At 38, we ran into the first of the firemen they saw. From there down to the ground, it was nonstop firemen coming up the stairs. We got them water on 38. These guys were pouring sweat, they were loaded down with hoses.

Speaking of water, What exactly would have been the purpose in the first place of disabling the sprinkler systems in the upper floors were the impact took place? The planes clearly penetrated at some level through the buildings... Given that the planes in both towers broke through the exterior load-bearing supports with ease, do you honestly think the mechanical systems which serviced these upper floors would have done any better in the first place? This still doesn't even begin to consider the sudden ignition of several floors at once, which would have immediately overwhelmed the sprinkler systems in the first place.

This speculation of yours needs to stop :\

4) the electricity was knocked out in the building. the cave-in in the PATH system knocked out an electrical back up system. the elevators were run by electric motors.

Consistent with some of the side effects of the plane impact... the towers took a rather massive hit did they not? Undoubtedly some of the mechanical systems were compromised judging by some of the cosmetic damage to sheet rock and other mechinal components that were dislodged from their fixtures during the impact.

...and of course then there is the obvious explosives were used to weaken the structure.

Clearly these bombs did not do their job then, otherwise failure would have been observed in lower sections of the towers, and the core would not have been standing after the progression of the main collapse. Clearly something must have gone wrong, since the collapse initiated from the regions where the planes hit.

I posted video and images of the exposed core section in this post.

 

[jhunter1163]

Really?

Let me get this straight... <snip>

SoG sets a new forum record with 14 uses of the word "arrogant" or variants thereof. At least we know how he feels about TWS.

 

[funk de fino]

basement bombs hampered fire efforts for three reasons:
1) they split the firefighters up
2) the elevators were inoperable. I can understand why the elevators in ZONE THREE were inoperable since the plane cut the cables. but the how come the elevators in ZONE ONE were inoperable? a plane did not cut their cables.
3) the engineering rooms were rendered inoperable. Mr. Mcquaids testimony on 91st floor says he heard explosion BELOW him in the mechanical room. the mechanical room in the basement B2-3 level. and the mechanical room on the 22nd floor. Just a coincidence? mechanical rooms are responsible for pumping water from the basement upwards throughout the building. that means water could not be pumped up to the fire zone.
4) the electricity was knocked out in the building. the cave-in in the PATH system knocked out an electrical back up system. the elevators were run by electric motors.

...and of course then there is the obvious explosives were used to weaken the structure.

You are running away from your claim that you made in response to State of Grace posts.

How would firefighters using the escalators have made any difference to speed the firefighting effort like you claimed. The above is not an answer to my question.

How do you know the 22nd floor room was inoperable?

How could the explosives set off many minutes before the collapse weaken the structure if the core was the last part standing by some way?

Was the electricity knocked out in both towers? Source please?

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Which bombs were these again? Bio said the bombs, please tell us more about these bombs.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

Mr. Mcquaids testimony on 91st floor says he heard explosion BELOW him in the mechanical room. the mechanical room in the basement B2-3 level. and the mechanical room on the 22nd floor.

What the fudge are you talking about?????

 

[bio]

You are running away from your claim that you made in response to State of Grace posts.

How would firefighters using the escalators have made any difference to speed the firefighting effort like you claimed. The above is not an answer to my question. (...)

.... any difference to what?

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Hello? Anyone gonna talk ab out these bombs they claim were in the WTC? Anyone at all?

 

[bio]

Hello? Anyone gonna talk ab out these bombs they claim were in the WTC? Anyone at all?

the explosions prevented the firemen to use more the elevators.

 

[funk de fino]

the explosions prevented the firemen to use more the elevators.

This is twice you have used this statement and again it is not in correct english. It does not make sense. You have missed a word somewhere.

 

[funk de fino]

.... any difference to what?

Posted by stateofgrace

What kind of fire fighting operation did they hinder by the way? How were the fire fighters ever going to fight a fire, 80 floors up, inside 55 minutes?

Incidentally, "the official conspiracy theory", what is that exactly? Care to tell us your theory? Care to give us some form of narrative as to what you believe happened? Please include the bombs in the basement that were designed to hinder the fire fighters and cover up the “operation”.

I look forward to your narrative.

Why 55 minutes, they could use the elevators?

The above is how it was layed out earlier.

You bolded the part above and asked why the elevators would not have sped up the firefighting efforts. Explain how being able to use the elevators would have made any difference to the actual fighting of the fire. How do they fight fires? What equipment do they use?

Also source for 22 floor mechanical room being inop?

Source for all electrical power in the towers being out?

 

[Jonnyclueless]

the explosions prevented the firemen to use more the elevators.

I am not sure if that is meant to be a sentence, but what about the bombs? You said bombs, what bombs?

 

[bio]

The above is how it was layed out earlier.

You bolded the part above and asked why the elevators would not have sped up the firefighting efforts. Explain how being able to use the elevators would have made any difference to the actual fighting of the fire. How do they fight fires? What equipment do they use?

Also source for 22 floor mechanical room being inop?

Source for all electrical power in the towers being out?

well - a good thing to slack a fire is to have firemen at the fire.

What do you want to say? That firemen could not do anything, therefor there was no need for a hurry ...? I showed you above, that the destructions of the security centers hindered these efforts of the firemen. You just need to read and let the informations in.

excuse me for my misspellings.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

As opposed to most fires which don't hinder the efforts of firemen..... Good lord...

 

[funk de fino]

well - a good thing to slack a fire is to have firemen at the fire.

What do you want to say? That firemen could not do anything, therefor there was no need for a hurry ...? I showed you above, that the destructions of the security centers hindered these efforts of the firemen. You just need to read and let the informations in.

excuse me for my misspellings.

No, you said the lack of elevators hindered the fire fighting effort. Stop running away from this one. If you have firefighters at a fire and they have no water or hoses then how do they fight the fire?

If the firemen reached the fire affected floors in an elevator what would they have fought the fire with?

You have a nerve telling me to read and let information in. Your posts lack correct english which makes them even more difficult to understand without your stupid claims.

Source for the 22 floor mechanical room being inoperable?

You are feeling a bit of a fool now because you realise the consequences of your claim.

 

[thewholesoul]

Really?

Let me get this straight, you offer up wide speculation which other members of this forum have addressed, you ignore them and arrogantly declare victory, right?

Your arrogance holds no bounds does it? You arrogantly demand answers to your wild speculation and refuse to offer any plausible reason as why anybody would take you seriously. You even have the shear arrogance to defend your fellow troofer who makes even wilder and stupid speculation than yourself.

The arrogance comes from you, who gladly wishes to accuse his fellow countrymen of being involved in mass murder and demand that others give you some form of respect. You deserve nothing, the burden to disprove your speculation does not lie with me or anybody for that matter,it lies with you to prove you are correct. The burden that you arrogantly dismiss in order to promote rubbish and accusations of mass murder. You arrogantly dismiss NIST, you arrogantly demand answers from people and throw temper tantrums when, rather than answer your questions, some people decide they would like answers to some of their own question. You arrogantly believe that you are the only person on the planet who is entitled to ask questions and demand answers you refuse to be subject to the same criteria yourself.

You have proved nothing, you have nothing and you know it. If you had anything you wouldn't be here you would be presenting your "evidence" to the world’s media, the scientific community or the engineering community. But of course you will not, your shear arrogance will not will not allow for this. In your little world it is better to keep the dream alive, arrogantly ask questions, demand answers and throw temper tantrums when you get answers you don't like.

Of course you could prove me wrong and present your "evidence" to the authorities, present it to the engineering/ scientific community or even the world’s media. If not why not?

What you see as arrogant in members on this forum is nothing more than the dismissal that you and your ilk deserve.Your bombs in the basement theory holds no water and you know it, there is zero reason why anybody would put bombs in the basement of a building and set them off as the planes hit many floors above. Your "bombs" in the basement serves no purpose whatsoever , there was zero reason for them, they would have served zero purpose, hence he reason you prefer not offer any motive for them being there.You can offer zero reason for them being there because there was zero reason for anybody to place bombs in the basement.No motive, zero, you fail.


To date you have failed miserably to answer the most basic of questions regarding your theories, you have arrogantly dismissed these basic questions because as you know, they show you for what you really are. That being an individual who is so arrogant he would accuse perfectly innocent people of being involved in mass murder on nothing other than his own wild speculation.

Ps, welcome to ignore.

peace.

wow, that was an impressive post.

i apologise if i sound arrogant that is not my intention. but my argument is very simple and no one has debunked it.

based on testimony we know where and when that the first basement explosion occured. it occured somewhere on the B2-3 level. and it occured below car 50 and before car 50 reached B1.

so the question is how did the fireball or jet fuel get from the imapct zone to B2-3 before the car 50? the answer is it cannot. i do regret that you rather go off on an elegant rant than admit the truth when it stares you smack in the face.

peace

 

[thewholesoul]

That was not his claim, you fail again.

You know what they say when you have to resort to personal attacks?

I really get to you dont I? Show me one mistake I have made.

aside from spelling errors

here are three
1. NIST explained total collapse in the December FAQ’s

this is misleading because the explanation in the FAQ's is incomplete and your statement sugegsts otherwise. i cover this in post 1077 that you fail to address.

2. The building was not pulverised

this is obviously false because you the building to a significant degree was in fact pulverized.

3. the house of cards analogy failed as an example to prove that 1/5th of a structure can crush the remainder of the structure.

you have made many others but i have better things to do with my time.

the reason why you make relatively few errors is because you do not make arguments only short critical comments of other peoples arguments.

but i could easily demostrate how you are wrong if you even tried - just once- to debunk my post 430. but your not even going to try.

peace

 

[thewholesoul]

Unfortunately we are still dealing with perception. As in they may have "perceived" the explosion as occurring under them. Blast wave refraction could easily lead to a miss-perception of the blasts origins or, alternatively, it could be that the blast wave, which would travel insanely fast down the confined space of the shafts could have bounced back up.

so a blast wave refraction flew down the shaft then bouced back up and burnt the skin off felipe's face.

The primary blast wave could have traveled down one of the other elevator shafts before entering the mechanical common areas beneath then traveled up the other shafts.

see above

Again, the primary blast wave may have traveled down a different shaft. Also...

see above

...has someone done a forensic analysis of car 50?

no

Not reported does not mean not experienced.

true

Based on what evidence?

all fireballs tend to consume the available fuel

Inside the confines of the shafts the overpressure would not dissipate in the same manner it would in open air.

the point was it will eventually decrease over time and distance.

Have you done empirical experiments to see just how much of a PSI difference there would have to be for the elevator doors to fail?

i dont need to experiment to know that air is easier to travel through than a door. it is a fact that all fireballs travel trough the path of least resistance.

Negotiations to create fuel/air deflagrations in 110 story buildings for experimental purposes are ongoing but most building owners are rejecting such proposals for some reason.

you admit then that the official fairytale remaons unproven.

Not necessarily. There are ways for body parts to be missing the don't involve trauma from supersonic shock waves. They could have been incinerated or sheared off by debris.

someone had their tongue blown out of their mouth. i find it difficult ot concieve how flying debris sheared his tongue out from inside his mouth

peace

 

[thewholesoul]

Shifting the burden of proof. You're claiming that the whole of 9-11 has to be re-evaluated on the basis of your calculation of the timing of the fireballs alone.

Strawman

To get even a moment's attention from anyone, your argument needs to be cast-iron and irrefutable.

well refute it then. I appreciate criticism as it only makes the argument stronger.

At the moment, you're simply saying that I can't prove your assumptions aren't true.

look your a physicist if you think that jet fuel or a fireball could have passed car 50 to explode at B2-3 before car 50 reached B1 then tell me how this is possible. and i will tell you why you are wrong. If i did prove that a droplet of jet fuel fell at the same time as a droplet of water it would still not change you opinion on 911. but i am not here to change your opinion. I just hope that a person reading these exchanges realizes that you and others are unable to refute my argument.

I don't need to; unless you can prove them true, nobody cares.

then why did you even bother to refute them?

Jet fuel being propelled down the lift shaft by the deflagration is the default assuption here, and you've done nothing to prove that's impossible.

So i have to prove how a droplet of fuel falls at the same speed as a droplet of water but the above does not have to be proven? Besides i debunked this argument in post 500. it violates the timeline since a fireball/deflagration travelling at 28m/s will not pass let alone reach the occupants in car 50 before they reach B1. but we know that the first basement explosion occured at B2-3 below car 50 and before it reached B1.

I read it. At best, it's a guess; you're assuming that the witness statement is accurate and that your speculative sequence of events is what really happened.

First of all – the official fireball explanation for the first basement explosion is SPECUALTIVE.

My argument is not speculative. Yes it is partly based on testimony, corroborating testimony that mutally confirm the location and timeline of events (e.g. explosion occured below car 50 and before car 50 reached B1). The testimony i use is the most relevant in establishing whether the official explanation is true of false.

It is also based on objective facts (e.g. elevator cables severed at same time as jet fuel began descending; occupants of car 50 did not receive burn injuries etc). It does, as you have correctly pointed out, some assumptions (e.g. droplet at jet fuel will not descend fast enough to pass car 50; fireball will not descend fast enough to pass car 50; fireball cannot pass car 50 undetected). but these assumptions are quite reasonable and if you had any reaon to think otherwise you would have said so by now.

Now in post 430 i welcomed some with your background to work out a better more accurate timeline for the car 50 descend based on the available evidence. But it appears you have decided against this.

In the end, in this most recent post – you basically try to poo-poo my argument i.e. that it is just a guess. But as explained above it is much more than mere speculation. it is obviosu that you are unable to address my argument point by point and refute it. it pleases me that a person of your intelligence cannot refute my argument.

peace

 

[tsig]

Strawman



well refute it then. I appreciate criticism as it only makes the argument stronger.



look your a physicist if you think that jet fuel or a fireball could have passed car 50 to explode at B2-3 before car 50 reached B1 then tell me how this is possible. and i will tell you why you are wrong. If i did prove that a droplet of jet fuel fell at the same time as a droplet of water it would still not change you opinion on 911. but i am not here to change your opinion. I just hope that a person reading these exchanges realizes that you and others are unable to refute my argument.



then why did you even bother to refute them?



So i have to prove how a droplet of fuel falls at the same speed as a droplet of water but the above does not have to be proven? Besides i debunked this argument in post 500. it violates the timeline since a fireball/deflagration travelling at 28m/s will not pass let alone reach the occupants in car 50 before they reach B1. but we know that the first basement explosion occured at B2-3 below car 50 and before it reached B1.



First of all – the official fireball explanation for the first basement explosion is SPECUALTIVE.

My argument is not speculative. Yes it is partly based on testimony, corroborating testimony that mutally confirm the location and timeline of events (e.g. explosion occured below car 50 and before car 50 reached B1). The testimony i use is the most relevant in establishing whether the official explanation is true of false.

It is also based on objective facts (e.g. elevator cables severed at same time as jet fuel began descending; occupants of car 50 did not receive burn injuries etc). It does, as you have correctly pointed out, some assumptions (e.g. droplet at jet fuel will not descend fast enough to pass car 50; fireball will not descend fast enough to pass car 50; fireball cannot pass car 50 undetected). but these assumptions are quite reasonable and if you had any reaon to think otherwise you would have said so by now.

Now in post 430 i welcomed some with your background to work out a better more accurate timeline for the car 50 descend based on the available evidence. But it appears you have decided against this.

In the end, in this most recent post – you basically try to poo-poo my argument i.e. that it is just a guess. But as explained above it is much more than mere speculation. it is obviosu that you are unable to address my argument point by point and refute it. it pleases me that a person of your intelligence cannot refute my argument.

peace

There were other elevator shafts.

It pleases me that you can evaluate intelligence by comments on a forum.