Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

Wangler: So 10-20 km/sec would be 5% of the rotational component, at minimum. This is making the simplistic assumption that the magnetically derived velocity is constant at those large radii where the rotation curve flattens out.

Ah, so perhaps you are getting confused about velocity (a vector quantity) and speed (a scalar)? With the added confusion that many sources do not clearly distinguish between the two (instead they rely upon a common, physics, understanding, shared by author and intended audience)? Example, from your link: "Astrophysicists measure the velocities of distant objects by measuring the "Doppler shift" of an object." (what's measured is the line of sight component of the velocity)

In uniform circular motion, an object's speed is constant, but its velocity is not; an object in uniform circular motion is accelerating, and that means there's a force acting on it (in classical physics).
 
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So, Sol, I am disappointed that you are the second person here who seems to think that a star's velocity cannot be dependent upon any group velocity that it's primoridal creation cloud may have had.


You are talking about something other than the rotation curve issue. some of a star's momentum may have come from formation. But the observation is that some stars are moving faster than they should in gravity-DM.

Why are you shifting the topic?
 
We had a long discussion of this. Zeuzzz was shown how totally absurd the idea is - you'd need such a huge charge on the star that it would instantly explode from electrostatic repulsion, for one thing. That doesn't seem to have any effect on his faith, though, and he now seems to have conveniently forgotten all about it.


Lets just clear up a few things here then.

The large charge in the sun, is a non standard model, which used to be supported by Donald Scott. His website, "electric-cosmos" still has this hypothesis up: "The Sun is at a more positive electrical potential (voltage) than is the space plasma surrounding it - probably in the order of 10 billion volts." (link). How he arrived at this number, I dont have a clue. And I dont think Scott knows either. The funny things is, there is not one peer reviewed publication that says that the sun has to be that of that charge, the only website that suports this seems to be that one page. Ians plasma-universe site does not mention this idea under the page "sun and stars", if you want to see the sun and stars from a plasma cosmology/universe perspective, its much more prosaic, but emphasises the role of electrical effects, and the link between simulating plasma phenomenon on earth to gain understanding of how the sun works via plasma scaling tranformations (that last one, not really yet, I'm going to update that page soon with some info) Sun and Stars

I'm pretty sure that Scott has since reconsidered this hypothesis after contemplating it. He has now suggested, instead of the large net charge, the charge is maintained by a strong plasma double layer on the suns surface, which has a novel explanation for the (still considered unexplaned) origin of the solar wind, the variability of the solar wind, and coronal heating using a Solar Surface Transistor Action mechanism. - IEEE, Pulsed Power Plasma Science, 2007. The sun is thus shielded from external electrostatic forces (the fundamental property of DL's) and so would not "explode" with this charge. Just like the Earth, the the almosphere around the sun (solar wind) will generally attract enough particles to make it overall neutral. I'm not a big fan of scotts old idea, the considerable charge on very large bodies wouldn't work as, like with Earth, any charge retained should be gained by an equivalent in the atmosphere to make it overall neutral. And until someone gives a satisfactory mechanism to explain why this would not happen (which I think could be possible), I dont think that much charge on a body would be tenable. The electric field of the earth (surface), is about 120 V/m (plenty of references for this), rendering the surface net charge at very roughly 106 C, but this should be cancelled by the uppter atmosphere. So its reasonable to suppose that a similar, but more powerful, system exists on the sun.

Scott does however maintain that Z-pinch fusion could be produced in the double layer, as the currents in the DL are potentially strong enough to cause this, but I dont think that the pressure in the solar atmosphere can account for this. Unless he explains, either, why the method we employ to measure the surface pressure of the sun is wrong, or Z-pinch can occur at low pressure. Which so far I have not seen.

However, Scott need not worry, as IEC fusion is a perfect candidate for fusion, it for now seems more likely than Z-pinch fusion. The pressure does't have to be anywhere near as great, IECF uses essnentially a very simple setup of, relatively weak, electric fields, and the focus of these fields creates fusion. Energy loss is the current problem in producing an efficient comsumable fusion device, but the future is looking promising.

And the visible light properties of a glow discharge (essential reading: Electric glow discharge) could preduce the spectra of a star, indictating that the spectral class of star is not dependant on its nuclear cycle, but rather shows the stability and strength of the electric field on the sun, and the subsequent emmission properties of this phenomenon.

All seems like a pretty damn interesting theory to me. Seeing that the origin of the solar wind and the oronal heating problem are the two most oustanding problems in conventional astronomy.
 
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And you still haven't explained the flat rotation curve of galaxies at all!


I cant. Peratts model does produce a flat rotation curve with the simulated two galactic wide plasma filaments, but falls short of offering a tenable solution on the stellar scale.

Maybe gravity obeys the Biot Savart force law when matter is flowing in a filament formation, as well as elecriticy :D
 
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I cant. Peratts model does produce a flat rotation curve with the simulated two galactic wide plasma filaments, but falls short of offering a tenable solution on the stellar scale.

That's funny. Only 3 days ago when you were asked the same question, you said:

By Peratts model, which produces flat rotation curves by the interaction of two plasma filaments. Alfven, or Lerners model of star formation (EM forces > gravity, rather than gravity > EM forces) produces the stars by the magnetic pinch effect of filaments, or from nebulae.
 
That's funny. Only 3 days ago when you were asked the same question, you said:


And I still stand by that. EM > gravity models that could provide a potential an explanation for flat rotation. The flat rotation aspect comes in when you apply these EM > gravity forming ideas (not gravity > EM) to Peratts model. But, I still havent seen this explained fully yet. I would bare with Peratt and colleagues at LANL, there is obviously a reason he has in mind for publishing the few first tentative ideas behind the "alternative" EM properties of stars (or electric stars, as its become known) in IEEE journals in early 2008. What he will propose is anyones guess.
 
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And I still stand by that. EM > gravity models that could provide a potential an explanation for flat rotation. The flat rotation aspect comes in when you apply these EM > gravity forming ideas (not gravity > EM) to Peratts model.

So do you have a single piece of evidence to suggest the external EM forces on stars are bigger than gravity?
 
So do you have a single piece of evidence to suggest the external EM forces on stars are bigger than gravity?


Yes! EM forces on particles (rather Ions) are nearly always stronger than gravity. They have a large charge/mass ratio.

A quote from a publication in Astronomy & Astrophysics, which performs the rare task of considering in detail the electrostatics that are impled by our models in space, not just the properties of the B-fields used so frequently (which, though essentaily equivalent in a maxwellian sense, astronomers do often infact seemingly forget the effects this vital other component of B-fields)

http://www.aanda.org/index.php?opti...=129&url=/articles/aa/pdf/2001/24/aah2649.pdf
On the global electrostatic charge of stars

The magnitude of electrostatic force represents
only about 10−36 of the magnitude of gravity. However,
if we study the dynamics of an electrically charged elementary
particle or ion, with mass mx and charge qx,
then the electrostatic force acting between this particle
and charge Qr is −qx(mp−me)=(2qmx) multiple of gravitational
force. Thus, the magnitude of the force represents
about 50% of the magnitude of gravity, if the star acts
on proton, and it is about 918 times more intensive than
gravity, if the star acts on electron.

The concept of the global charge or global electrostatic
eld is certainly important to be considered in the rotation
of plasma enforced by an external force. Here, the
di erence of the external force per mass unit (i.e. acceleration
due to the external force), acting on both protons
(ions) and electrons in a highly conductive plasma,
causes a di erence of velocities of both kinds of charge
carriers and, thus, an electric current inducing the appropriate
magnetic eld.
 
Zeuzzz: Maybe gravity obeys the Biot Savart force law when matter is flowing in a filament formation, as well as elecriticy [sic]

Zeuzzz:The flat rotation aspect comes in when you apply these EM > gravity forming ideas (not gravity > EM) to Peratts model.


For readers other than Z: a great deal of (lab, experimental) work has been done, to investigate the relationship between EM and gravity ... google on Eöt-Wash, for example.

No relationship has been found (other than that via the additional mass-energy of a system due to EM fields).

Perhaps surprisingly (or not), neither Scott nor Peratt seems even aware of these first-class experiments, much less has tried to calculate how their (null) results (severely) constrain any "EM > gravity" ideas.

While we cannot know what breathtakingly insightful connection may yet emerge from these speculations, it is surely nothing less than staggering ignorance that has lead Z to describe the wild guesses as "a pretty damn interesting theory"
 
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You are talking about something other than the rotation curve issue. some of a star's momentum may have come from formation. But the observation is that some stars are moving faster than they should in gravity-DM.

Why are you shifting the topic?

I don't think I'm talking off topic, I just don't think that I am explaining my thoughts very well.

Let's picture a very large cloud of gas, say two or three times the diameter of the Milky Way. This cloud of gas is ionized, and has some associated electromagnetic field.

Further, assume that this cloud of gas has begun the first step in a graviational collapse.

Now, I certainly cannot solve the governing equations, but lets assume that the EM field strength is such that it can counteract gravitational collapse, either by just counteracting gravity, or by "spinning up" the gas cloud. Let's assume for the sake of my argument, that the "spinning up" is what causes the collapse to halt.

So, here we have some sort of EM-gravity equilibrium, on a global scale. The cloud is rotating faster than expected, because of the EM "spin up".

Now, over time, local instabilities result in star formation at various places in the global cloud.

When a star begins to shine, we see it, and note that it's rotational period is shorter than expected.

the only problem that I see with a contrived scenario like this one, is that the star would just move to a larger radius orbit if it was not charged, one that would match our Keplerian explaination perfectly.

But, perhaps it would take many, many rotations for this relaxation to take place.

This whole idea might not be plausible, but does my explaination make sense?
 
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This whole idea might not be plausible, but does my explaination make sense?

No.

Stars orbit the galactic center at a rate which is inconsistent with Newtonian (or Einstein) gravity given the amount of visible matter present there. End of story.

It doesn't make any difference what their initial velocity was - what matters is that their acceleration, which must be caused by some force, is too large. Therefore there must be additional force coming from somewhere. It could be from dark matter's gravitational pull, or it could be electromagnetic - except that we've seen that it cannot be EM, because EM forces on stars are negligible.
 

Of course! Did you search on "wangler" and "rotation curve" and "10%" or something?

Thanks!


Do you know the difference between velocity and acceleration?

Sure velocity is change in position over time (units of length/time), acceleration is change in velocity over time (units of length/time squared).

When an object is in an orbit, say a star in a galactic orbit, with no other forces but gravity acting, it's total velocity is approximately constant, but it's x, y and z components are not. They are changing over time due to something called centripetal acceleration.

I say it's total velocity is approximately constant. All closed orbits are ellipses, and the object in such an orbit will have lower total velocity as it gets further from the center of mass providing the centripetal acceleration (via Newton's Law). For galactic orbits, I think this far point is called apastron.
 
No.

Stars orbit the galactic center at a rate which is inconsistent with Newtonian (or Einstein) gravity given the amount of visible matter present there. End of story.

It doesn't make any difference what their initial velocity was - what matters is that their acceleration, which must be caused by some force, is too large. Therefore there must be additional force coming from somewhere. It could be from dark matter's gravitational pull, or it could be electromagnetic - except that we've seen that it cannot be EM, because EM forces on stars are negligible.

Well,

With the EM forces on stars being negligible, what do we mean. Isn't my reference saying what you are saying? That the EM interaction could only account for 10% of the seen discrepancy?
 
Of course! Did you search on "wangler" and "rotation curve" and "10%" or something?

Something like that, yeah.

When an object is in an orbit, say a star in a galactic orbit, with no other forces but gravity acting, it's total velocity is approximately constant, but it's x, y and z components are not.

Nope. Its velocity is not "approximately constant". The change in velocity is precisely as large as it would be if the star were falling straight towards (or away from) the center of the orbit, or moving in any other direction.

The acceleration is determined only by distance from the center of mass being orbited and the magnitude of that mass - it has nothing at all to do with the direction the star is moving.
 
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