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Do Most Atheists Know that science..... Part 2

If his argument is not well constructed then explain where.
What argument? :confused:

He offers a vague description of variable time theory, with absolutely no maths to back it up, and which is not supported by any evidence, and then simply compares the standard BB model timeline to the Genesis timeline, omitting several glaring inconsistencies.

The sentence,
A scientifically non-linear time scale in the Genesis story might also even be somehow related to the fact that a lot of people of the Bible lived to around 900 years old! But that's a different matter and may not have any connection to the matter at hand!
Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever! If the timescale is variable then people would still only live for 70 years, because, although the days and years would be shorter, the lifespans of the people would also be shorter, with the result that they would appear to be the same length to an internal observer. That's basic relativity!

This might also be a vague reference to a Big Bang event
This might be a reference to the creation of the multitude of stars in the Universe
This seems to refer to the creation of the Sun
This is somewhat hard to fully understand, but possibly describing the creation of the Earth.
Not very sure of his facts or interpretations, is he.

Since humans have now gotten to a point of being able to scientifically research their heritage, they find adequate but subtle evidence that exists that supports the theory that they evolved from lesser creatures
Um, no. There are mountains of incredibly convincing evidence that show that we almost certainly evolved from other animals. The fossil record, genetics, vestigial organs, parts of human anatomy that make absolutely no sense for a bipedal animal, but would be exactly what you expect in an animal that evolved a bipedal gait from a quadrupedal gait. Saying that this evidence is "subtle" is like saying that using a sledgehammer is a subtle way to crack a walnut shell.

If, several thousand years ago, a group of people tried to fake a Bible, and therefore Genesis 1, they would have had that same dozen or so events to chain together into a believable story for Genesis. They would have wanted to include references to the creation of earth (land), man, water, people, the Sun, large animals, small animals, fishes, birds, plants, the Moon, the stars.

If they did actually do this, they did a pretty stupid job of faking it, because the story line really wouldn't be very believable to people of the time.

The ORDER of events seems really peculiar. Why light before dry ground? Why plants before animals? Why everything before man (who would need to witness it all to be able to be aware of it)? Why ocean animals first? Why, even, a WHOLE DAY to create light, while a LOT of things apparently happened on the Sixth Day?
Really? What order would you put them in? What sort of moron would create humans before there was an Earth, or Sun, or anything for them to eat? The ordering of the creation events in Genesis is blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain, and occurs in almost all creation myths. He says that a "plausible faker" would have used a different sequence, but doesn't really offer a plausible alternative sequence!

He also posits that fakers would have had God spending far more time creating humans, in order to show how special they were. I'm sorry, but how is being created "in God's image" not pretty bloody special?

there seems to be overwhelming support for the validity of the Bible being directly from the Inspiration of God
Umm, no, not really.

To whit, take the following verses;
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Except that there are huge numbers of seed bearing herbs and fruiting trees, and animals which are poisonous, and therefore aren't "meat" for humans.

2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
So, God makes plants before he makes rain to let them survive, which doesn't mesh at all with standard theory, which has rain long before any plants.

2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Hang on, didn't God make all the animals before he made Adam??? I'm confused!

3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Doesn't God know these things? Why does he have to ask? Doesn't seem very omnipotent to me.

Oh, and Adam and Eve don't die when they eat the fruit, which is what God told them would happen. Was he lying?
3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life
Really? Serpents eat dust? News to me!
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us
Us? US???? How many gods are there?

I could keep going, but really, I think I've made the point. The account in Genesis is internally inconsistent, inaccurate, and unsupported by any science.
 
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Hang on, didn't God make all the animals before he made Adam??? I'm confused!


Before you get too confused, remember that there are two creation accounts told, not one. Which is why the order changes.
Makes it easier for a troubled creationist to pick which bits he can shoehorn into his "Bible is accurate rendition of the Big Bang theory" speil.



I could keep going, but really, I think I've made the point. The account in Genesis is internally inconsistent, inaccurate, and unsupported by any science.


So is much of the rest of the thing. It's not supported by history, either.



There are two flood stories, too, because you just know that Noah is gonna crop up soon.
 
The scientific evidence is that land animals occured before birds.

The genesis account (or Genesis theory if you will)
says birds occured before land animals.

Since, the theory disagrees with the evidence, that means the theory is wrong.

Well I've always said I, like Billy Graham, am not a literalist -- ("yet"). But if I saw some of these photos of flying fish without knowing what they were, I would definitely say they were birds first. Flying Fish have been known to glide several hundred meters.

http://images.google.com/images?q=F...&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title,

And weren't there some flying dinosaurs,
 
Really? What order would you put them in?

Well I wouldn't have put them in any order, I would of had God create everything immediately; I mean he's God, why even bother to spread it out.

But if I had to spread it out I would of had God create:

the sun first

then the earth

then the moon and the stars

then the fruit trees, other trees, and plants,

then both man and woman at the same time,

then the animals,

then the sea,

then fish,

then creeping things (insects)
 
What order would you put them in?

Well I wouldn't have put them in any order, I would of had God create everything immediately; I mean he's God, why even bother to spread it out.

But if I had to spread it out I would of had God create:

the sun first

then the earth

then the moon and the stars

then the fruit trees, other trees, and plants,

then both man and woman at the same time,

then the animals,

then the sea,

then fish,

then creeping things (insects)
You complain that I dismiss his arguments without addressing them, so I write a long and detailed post, and a single line, sarcastic, rhetorical question is what you respond to? What about the rest of the post?

Unless you respond to the meat of my post I shall have no alternative but to assume that you can't answer the criticisms.

You challenged me to offer proper criticism, so I did.

Your turn, if you can.
 
Well I've always said I, like Billy Graham, am not a literalist -- ("yet"). ...[snip]
DOC, you are contradicting yourself and proving my point.

The "Theory" as written in genesis Does NOT agree with the data. that means the "theory" is wrong.


BTW, even if we consider the flying dinosaurs, they STILL came after land animals.
 
Well I've always said I, like Billy Graham, am not a literalist -- ("yet"). But if I saw some of these photos of flying fish without knowing what they were, I would definitely say they were birds first. Flying Fish have been known to glide several hundred meters.

That's an argument from personal ignorance --- and not a very relevant one, either.

My understanding is that our earliest fossils of flying fish date from the early Cretaceous period, well after the introduction of land animals. So regardless of whether you yourself can tell the difference between fish and birds (and whether an all-knowing God is equally ill-informed), the fossils suggest that land animals predated even flying fish by several hundred million years.

And weren't there some flying dinosaurs,

Not before there were land-based ones, no.

Genesis simply got the order wrong.
 
And don't forget the trees:
Gen 1:11 --- fruit bearing trees.
Gen 1:20 --- sea-creatures and birds.
Gen 1:24 --- land critters.


What are you/God/God's chronicler mistaking for fruit bearing trees?
 
The sun came before the other stars? Don't you realize how badly this conflicts with all the evidence we have? Even if you believe this, you must know that this notion fundamentally contradicts science.

The sun and the earth sre not special, we are one of trillions, tucked away in a tiny corner of a remote galazy.
 
That's an argument from personal ignorance --- and not a very relevant one, either.

My understanding is that our earliest fossils of flying fish date from the early Cretaceous period, well after the introduction of land animals. So regardless of whether you yourself can tell the difference between fish and birds (and whether an all-knowing God is equally ill-informed), the fossils suggest that land animals predated even flying fish by several hundred million years.



Not before there were land-based ones, no.

Any sources for any of this.
 
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The sun came before the other stars? Don't you realize how badly this conflicts with all the evidence we have? Even if you believe this, you must know that this notion fundamentally contradicts science.

The sun and the earth sre not special, we are one of trillions, tucked away in a tiny corner of a remote galazy.

I know this, I was asked what order I would create things.
 
DOC, you are contradicting yourself and proving my point.

The "Theory" as written in genesis Does NOT agree with the data. that means the "theory" is wrong..

Where exactly am I contradicting myself.
 
Also, I see where the source of the word bird is unknown. What if it was translated from a word that meant flying creature.
 
Any sources for any of this.

My spoon is broken. Do you see that little "Google" button in the upper right hand of the screen? (If not, you should switch to FireFox.) If you want to be specific, look for Excoetoides minor, which is one of the relevant early flying fish fossils. It dates back to about 100 mya, give or take a week. For flying dinosaurs --- dinosaurs by definition were Mesozoic, while land-based animals such as amphibians were common in the Carboniferous and Permian periods.
 
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Where exactly am I contradicting myself.
There multiple times.
THe one I was referring to was your use of Feynman to equate biblical genesis to being as accurate as string theory. however, by applying Feynman's quote, genesis is disproven.

To go more generally, your entire argument has amounted to "If science agrees with the bible, the bible is proven true. If science disagrees with the bible, science if false."


Why bother pretending to try merge god and science when you'll ignore evidence that contradicts the merger?
 
I know this, I was asked what order I would create things.
No, you weren't. It was rhetoric. A single line in a very long post.

A post which (apart from your imagined order of creation) you are still completely ignoring.

Why is that?
 
Also, I see where the source of the word bird is unknown. What if it was translated from a word that meant flying creature.

Gen 1:11 --- fruit bearing trees.
Gen 1:20 --- sea-creatures and birds.
Gen 1:24 --- land critters.

How should the words given as "fruit bearing trees" have been translated?
 
There multiple times.

There is no multiple times, you just made this up because you can't name two that you can clearly explain with examples.


THe one I was referring to was your use of Feynman to equate biblical genesis to being as accurate as string theory.

This doesn't make sense, you just made it up. It's not logical.

however, by applying Feynman's quote, genesis is disproven.

Doesn't make sense.

...To go more generally, your entire argument has amounted to "If science agrees with the bible, the bible is proven true. If science disagrees with the bible, science if false."

You just made up the bold part.

ETA: joobz you need to bring my exact statements in here and Fenyman's exact statements in and logically explain your reasoning.
 
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