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Scriptural literacy

Given that Radrook clearly has me and Piggy on ignore, he won't see thins message. Could someone whom he doesn't have on ignore (Nogbad?) copy/paste Piggy's posts as if they were their own? It might be the only way to get him to respond to anything.
Nah, don't. It's funny to see him sitting there, arguing only with the voices in his head. The moment he actually engages and responds to someone is the moment he starts spewing gall bladder contents, I mean his typical arguments, at them.
Actually, the scholarly term for the genre of those books would be "narrative" rather than "historical". They constitute a narrative of God's relationship with Israel and include a variety of subgenres from formulaic introductions of the kings to purely didactic passages. They are not attempting to write "history" as we understand the term today.

And in fact, we see more than one strain of tradition preserved in these books -- traditions which do not always agree with each other, even in terms of reporting what happened and when.

As to the "theme" of the Bible, it is impossible to discern a single "theme" even to the Pentateuch, much less to the entire Hebrew Bible, or to the entire Xian Bible. The redactors were concerned with preserving traditions, not "themes".
Also, didn't those very books refer to extraneous texts that actually did serve as historical records? I know those books of the Bible refer to "The Annals of the Kings of Israel" several times, and I know there had to have been other literature being written at the time that wasn't just about the religious message as it related to various figures (historical or otherwise).
I think you underestimate the level of literacy in ancient Jewish communities, as well as the frequency with which the Hebrew texts were read.
But Jesus never wrote anything himself, did he? Wouldn't it have been highly unusual for a rabbi at his time, especially one educated in existing scripture, to have gone his entire career without writing anything down?

Then again, Confucius, Socrates, et. al. ;)
 
Also, didn't those very books refer to extraneous texts that actually did serve as historical records? I know those books of the Bible refer to "The Annals of the Kings of Israel" several times, and I know there had to have been other literature being written at the time that wasn't just about the religious message as it related to various figures (historical or otherwise).

Yes, it's generally agreed that the annals of the kings of Israel and Judah were actual records, and probably fairly accurate. One of the ways we can tell the Biblical books were citing actual sources is that the method of introducing the kings of Judah differs from the method of introducing the kings of Israel in a systematic way, which indicates direct copying from extant source material.

There is some disagreement within the Bible regarding timelines, but when you're talking about ancient sources, that's not surprising.

But Jesus never wrote anything himself, did he? Wouldn't it have been highly unusual for a rabbi at his time, especially one educated in existing scripture, to have gone his entire career without writing anything down?

Then again, Confucius, Socrates, et. al. ;)

No, not really. I don't know that there is any record of a leader of a sect writing his own material. The writings were produced later by the community of disciples to justify and explain their beliefs. This is the case for the followers of the prophet Isaiah, it's the case for the Essenes (we don't even know who their "son of God" was), etc.

The mission of a prophet or rabbi who had his own following was the "teaching". If the school which grew up around that teaching got large enough, then you started to see writings associated with it.
 
Find yourself a copy of the complete Dead Sea Scrolls with commentary (they can be rather impenetrable without good commentary).

These were produced by the Essene community at Qumran. The excavations of the community site there, and the extensive scrolls, have produced new insights into the Essenes.


ETA: The man who proclaims Jesus' status as Messiah in the Temple is Simeon.

Simeon, Simon.....Potato, po-tah-to, tomato, to-mah-to.........:D (Just kidding.)

Not necessarily.

The Essenes at Qumran, for instance, had an entire building set up for the reproduction of scrolls. It was one of their enterprises.

There's a reason why the Jews were called "the people of the book".

So now I'm starting to dig into the Dead Sea Scrolls, but I've come across a theory that seems to have been gaining momenteum since the nineties regarding Qumran being a strictly Essenes site. I don't want to "hi-jack" the thread into the whole field of biblical archaeology, but for those interested, you may want to look at the articles here, as it is a round-table discussion with 4 archaeologists regarding their views on the site (with them commenting if a building was set-up for scroll reproduction or not- - check out the drawings at the end of the article) and another site here from the University of Chicago. The latter site talks of microbiologists taking DNA samples from the scrolls in 1995 (but no findings were ever released) and again in 2004 ( but so far, again, no findings have been released).

Again, don't want to steer the ship towards the rocks, but I did want to pass this info on to those interested....

Back to your regularly scheduled program......
 
Yes, but this also makes our task easier, in certain ways.

For instance, in your post there, we can tease out the poetry from the prose. And within the prose, we can divide the main body from the post-script.

Similar cues, and many others, are used to separate the layers of the books that we have, and in doing so, to re-create the history of the books.


Does it help identify which parts are true? ;)


(OK, I'll behave now and go back to lurking. Please do continue the fascinating discussion.)
 
So now I'm starting to dig into the Dead Sea Scrolls, but I've come across a theory that seems to have been gaining momenteum since the nineties regarding Qumran being a strictly Essenes site. I don't want to "hi-jack" the thread into the whole field of biblical archaeology, but for those interested, you may want to look at the articles here, as it is a round-table discussion with 4 archaeologists regarding their views on the site (with them commenting if a building was set-up for scroll reproduction or not- - check out the drawings at the end of the article) and another site here from the University of Chicago. The latter site talks of microbiologists taking DNA samples from the scrolls in 1995 (but no findings were ever released) and again in 2004 ( but so far, again, no findings have been released).

Very interesting.

Btw, here is the relevant portion of that interview:

Shanks: I’d like to hear your analysis of locus 30 [on de Vaux’s plan], the so-called scriptorium, where scrolls were supposedly written. It is a hall. Did it have two stories?

Eshel: There were stairs leading to a second floor.

Magness: Clearly there were the remains of two floors.

Shanks: What was the function of that hall? Hanan?

Eshel: Well, everybody knows inkwells were found there.g

Hirschfeld: As far as I remember, de Vaux found two ceramic inkwells in the hall and one more made of bronze outside.

Eshel: [Solomon] Steckoll found a fourth in his small excavation in 1966 to 1967.9 Three or four inkwells at one site is unique, especially at a site the size of Qumran.

Magness: I have worked for many years on pottery reading at various archaeological sites, and I have never yet found an inkwell in any of the zillions of baskets of pottery that I have sorted.

Hirschfeld: A 1980 article on ancient inkwells reports on 15 of them from different places.10 It’s true that in the parallels I have cited, no inkwells were found, but these sites were only partially excavated. Inkwells were found in Jerusalem and also in the Galilee—in Meiron and en-Nabratein.11

Eshel: But we don’t have a room with more than one inkwell anywhere else right now. Even in the upper city of Jerusalem, in the rich buildings that [Nahman] Avigad excavated, he didn’t find such a room.h I don’t want to give the impression that I’m sure that room 30, or the second floor, was used as a scriptorium because I’m not sure.

The tables from that room are also unique. Once it was thought that those tables were used to write the scrolls. Then they decided that that was not convincing. Perhaps the tables were used to make the dry lines on the scrolls. They cannot be used as something that people lay on [as argued by the Donceels]; they’re too narrow.

Shanks: What about the possibility that the upper story was a fancy dining room, a triclinium, as the Donceels have argued?

Magness: You’d have to be a midget in order to be able to recline and dine on those benches because otherwise you’d fall off. They’re only 40 centimeters [about a foot] wide.
I’m not wedded to the scriptorium idea either. If somebody comes up with a better interpretation and says, “Look we have a nice parallel here that nobody ever looked at, and it’s not a scriptorium, it’s a ‘fill in the blank,’” that’s fine.

Shanks: But the so-called desk theory doesn’t hold up either.

Magness: You’re right! We just don’t know what they are.

Patrich: To reconstruct it exactly is difficult. There are things you cannot do. One of them is, you can’t recline. Perhaps you can lean against it or stretch a scroll along it.

Hirschfeld: To me it seems that the so-called tables are benches that were built along the wall, probably for sitting rather than reclining.

Eshel: Jodi [Magness] and I have just excavated a room in Yattir with a lot of benches. Benches are made of stone and then plastered. The tables from Qumran don’t have stone in the middle; they are built with plaster over reeds tied together. You can’t sit on this. Someone of my weight would break it.

Shanks: There’s only one fancy room at Qumran, or set of rooms. Room 4 [on de Vaux’s plan] has benches around it, and it has a pass-through to another room (room 2), and there’s a large stone installation like a stand on the other side of the pass-through. What is your interpretation of that? These rooms, it has been suggested, made up the Qumran library where the scrolls were studied.

Hirschfeld: I see locus 4 not as a place for sitting, but for storing. The benches are not for sitting—they are too narrow—but for storing jars, as in traditional Arab houses. The upper story, incidentally, was where the inhabitants lived. We often see this division of the lower and upper story in Roman and Byzantine country houses.

Shanks: Jodi, you shrugged your shoulders, as if to say “I don’t know what it’s for.”

Magness: Yes. Unless you have a room that has a really distinctive layout or very distinctive installations, the only way to determine what its use was, at least in its last phase of occupation, is on the basis of the artifacts found inside it. Until the material from Qumran is finally fully published, we won’t be able to answer a lot of the questions you’re asking. They’re up in the air. We can’t really know until we have the full publication of the material.

Eshel: We know Hartmut Stegemann’s suggestion that it [room 4] was a study room and that you had to show some kind of ID in order to enter this room and that the librarian was on the other side of the wall, and the scroll was ordered from him.12 I don’t want to play this game. Maybe he is correct; maybe he is not correct. I’m not sure that even if all the material found in Qumran is someday published, we’ll have an answer to this question.

Patrich: I agree with Yizhar [Hirschfeld] that we need to take into account the existence of a second story where people stayed and lived. The lower floor was for storage and light manufacturing.

Now, keep in mind that this discussion took place a decade ago.

For views opposing the scriptorium, I like a couple of 2007 papers from the Chicago site:

The So-Called “Virtual Reality Tour” at the 2007 San Diego Scrolls Exhibit

Fact And Fiction In Current Exhibitions Of The Dead Sea Scrolls – A Critical Notebook for Viewers

Looking around, I don't think much has changed, and it seems that I overstated the case for a scroll-producing enterprise, to say the least.

Here's Hebrew University's scroll site.

From their FAQ:

Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?
The manuscripts called the Dead Sea Scrolls represent over 900 separate writings. Some of them were written by the Jewish sectarians who formed the Qumran community. A great many were part of the wealth of literature circulating widely in Judea of the Second Temple period, and were brought to the site by the sectarians. Some of these works, such as 1 Enoch and the Book of Jubilees, we know from other sources as well. Thus, the Qumran documents give us insights, not only into the workings of the Dead Sea sect itself, but also into the wider context and thought-world of Second Temple Judaism.

So they support the interpretation that the Qumran sect produced scrolls and brought in scrolls from outside, but no mention of any large enterprise to produce scrolls.
 
Does it help identify which parts are true?

Sometimes.

For example, boasts of wiping enemies off the map are formulaic, so we take them with a grain of salt. When archeology doesn't confirm them, well....

On the other hand, when you have what amounts to cited references which are not contradicted by archeology, such as some of the passages regarding the line of kings, then that gets considerably more respect.

When events are confirmed elsewhere, such as the repatriation of the Jews by Cyrus and the building of the 2nd Temple, then we have something serious to go on. Then when you read, for example, the psalm which proclaims that happy is he who dashes the babies of the Edomites against the rocks -- the Edomites moved into Judea during the exile and were not too happy about being asked to leave, and they put up a fight -- it all makes sense.

Then we have issues like Jesus' crucifixion. It's difficult to imagine that such an event would be invented by any rabbi's disciples. It fits with what we know of the Romans, so it's very likely true.

Some say, well, they did that so Jesus would fit the prophecy, but that doesn't make sense.

The well of Hebrew prophecy is deep, and the Xians took selected spoonfuls to match up with Jesus' life.

Since they were so keen to identify Jesus with Elijah, if they'd had their druthers, they would have had him ride up to heaven in a chariot, and simply not selected the suffering servant passages or the psalm about gambling for garments and humiliation and all that.

They picked the passages to suit.

So the crucifixion is probably true.
 
Sometimes.

<snipped for space>


Seriously, that is extremely helpful. I did take a class on the bible as literature eons ago, and have read the thing cover to cover more than once, but I clearly need to learn more about the bible as history.

Off to follow some of Greediguts links, and then a trip to the library!
 
If anyone is interested....

I'm working my way thru my new Bible now -- the Oxford Annotated came out w/ a 3rd edition -- and if folks would care to read it, I'd like to use this space to post on some of the more interesting points of Biblical interpretation and scholarship as I run across them.

It's very exciting to see a group here who are interested in Biblical scholarship.

I do agree with Radrook that, all too often, people here dismiss it as "just a bunch of stone age myths" which is it not.

So if anybody would read it, I'll be happy to keep posting on various points from time to time.
 
I do agree with Radrook that, all too often, people here dismiss it as "just a bunch of stone age myths" which is it not.
Which part, if it is about a so-called god, I would hope so.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Closer to iron age through the end of prehistory, no? ;)

Some of it's iron-age (which is actually what I meant to type above) but you also have a lot of writings (e.g. psalms) composed during the Babylonian exile, and Daniel was probably written about a century before the time of Christ. So you're looking at a collection of writings and oral traditions that cover a pretty long stretch of time.
 
The Pharisees were just one rabbinical group...

Thanks. I find the whole subject to be fascinating. The Bible is much more interesting to me as real history than it ever was when I believed it was literally true.
 
If anyone is interested....

I'm working my way thru my new Bible now -- the Oxford Annotated came out w/ a 3rd edition -- and if folks would care to read it, I'd like to use this space to post on some of the more interesting points of Biblical interpretation and scholarship as I run across them.

It's very exciting to see a group here who are interested in Biblical scholarship.

I do agree with Radrook that, all too often, people here dismiss it as "just a bunch of stone age myths" which is it not.

So if anybody would read it, I'll be happy to keep posting on various points from time to time.
Put me down in the interested column. I am enjoying the non-agenda (pro or con) version.
 
Some of it's iron-age (which is actually what I meant to type above) but you also have a lot of writings (e.g. psalms) composed during the Babylonian exile, and Daniel was probably written about a century before the time of Christ. So you're looking at a collection of writings and oral traditions that cover a pretty long stretch of time.

I realize it's just wiki, but this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age#Ancient_Near_East) says the iron age starts at 1300 BC, which would still encompass your timeline.
 
If anyone is interested....
I'm interested too, especially if we can talk Radrook into putting everyone on "ignore" so we're spared his extraneous ("great glowing globs of globular godlessness...") commentary.
 
I do agree with Radrook that, all too often, people here dismiss it as "just a bunch of stone age myths" which is it not.
Closer to iron age through the end of prehistory, no? ;)
Some of it's iron-age (which is actually what I meant to type above) but you also have a lot of writings (e.g. psalms) composed during the Babylonian exile, and Daniel was probably written about a century before the time of Christ. So you're looking at a collection of writings and oral traditions that cover a pretty long stretch of time.
Wouldn't it have been the bronze age at its earliest? Judges 1:19 mentions iron chariots and how they gave God so much trouble (though this is quickly resolved in 4:3). So that would make the bible "just a bunch of bronze / iron age myths." :D

Of course, just because something is mythology doesn't mean it's not worth studying, since mythology encompasses a wide scope of topics, including a little bit of historical context. Greco-Roman mythology, for example, has a lot to teach us about the culture that wrote it, even if the gods didn't exist and the supernatural events never happened.
 
As an scriptural illiterate I find it very amusing to point out the errors in radrook´s "reasoning".

Piggy and others with actual knowlegde of the bible are rather boring.


I wish to retract the last sentence, scriptural archaology is alot more interresting than i throught.
 
Typical godless confusion

Confused by Hyperbole
Confused by Simile
Confused by Personification
Confused by Poetic License
Confused by Multiple Choices
Confused by Two people having same name. Example: Goliath
Confused by Words with multiple shades of meaning such as "Yom-day" or 'heaven."
Confused by Literal as opposed to symbolic

Damn, and I was going to ask what you thought about Jacob beating God in a wrestling match (Genesis 32:24-30). :)

My mention of godless, mind you, is because the godless tend to generate his own misunderstandings due to his need to prove a godless bible. At least that has been my experience on this forum. Godless people frothing at the mouth and hell-bent on reading contradictions into texts. So since there is a positive correlation here between the twain one tends to make a causal connection.

I've noticed the godly tend to generate their own misunderstanding and misquotes too. Believing in the bible is not a guarantee scriptural literacy either. For example, I've seen Matthew 5:17 used elsewhere to support the idea that the old laws no longer apply (ie. that Jesus "fulfilled" the old laws), but reading the passage makes it clear the opposite message is intended.
 
Well I have quoted where Jesus upheld the law. For balance I should quote the part where Paul says the law was abolished. For example Ephesians 2:15:

And just to confuse the argument, Romans 2:

Make of it what you will.

Thanks for that.

Just one question...
(Romans 2:23-3:02)
Code:
002:023 You who glory in the law, through your disobedience of the law
        do you dishonor God?
002:024 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because
        of you,"{Isaiah 52:5; Ezekiel 36:22} just as it is written.
002:025 For circumcision indeed profits, if you are a doer of the law,
        but if you are a transgressor of the law, your circumcision
        has become uncircumcision.
002:026 If therefore the uncircumcised keep the ordinances of the law,
        won't his uncircumcision be accounted as circumcision?
002:027 Won't the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfills
        the law, judge you, who with the letter and circumcision
        are a transgressor of the law?
002:028 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that
        circumcision which is outward in the flesh;
002:029 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision
        is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter;
        whose praise is not from men, but from God.
003:001 Then what advantage does the Jew have?  Or what is the
        profit of circumcision?
003:002 Much in every way!  Because first of all, they were entrusted
        with the oracles of God.

Does this sound like deliberate equivocation instead of divine inspiration to anyone else?
(Actually, a second question occurs. Exactly what did they consider to be the spiritual significance of circumcision at the time? Apart from "God told them so".)
 

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