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Do Most Atheists Know that science..... Part 2

So it is your belief, that in math, if your figures don't mesh with your current belief system, it is OK to personally add something to those figures to make them mesh.

Maths is abstract.
The aim of using maths in science is to model the universe. If you have no reason to suppose the universe is changing size, then yes: You will likely construct a model which describes a static universe.

Sitting in a room performing calculations will not reveal the secrets of the universe to you. Contrary to what Artistotle might have thought.

Not until you mentioned that was your take on what was said. But as I have pointed out, the book said that Eddington's experiment proved "general relativity to be true". What you imply after that is dependent on whether you read only one paragraph like you did or the whole chapter like I did.

The impression I get is that they think the theory Eddington's experiment supported is one which described an expanding universe. It was not. Not even Friedmann's solution did that -- it described a universe which was changing size. It could have been contracting.

Out of all the possible mathematical models, how does a scientist decide which is most accurate? In this case, Hubble looked through a telescope. Quite a few hundred times I should imagine.

Their language could have been clearer in the Eddington paragraph, but they clearly say it was Friedman that found the problem with the constant in the next paragraph.

Friedmann found that Einstein's static solution was not the only solution. That is all he did. He did not prove that universe was expanding or contracting. He showed that it was mathematically possible for the universe to change size and be consistent with Einstein's field equations.

Again: The error Friedmann pointed out was not an error which Einstein made in the general relativity paper he published in 1915. It was an error Einstein made before he criticised Friedmann's 1922 paper.

Their language wasn't clear in the Eddington paragraph. But it becomes clearer when they talk about Hubble, de Sitter, Wilson etc.

Their language was misleading. That is why you were misled into thinking that Eddington's experiment had something to do with showing that the universe is expanding.
 
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>"Would there be more or less crime if everyone was an atheist"
>"Has anyone ever gotten off drugs through the power of atheism"


what.

Please feel free to bring the excerpts here that show how western society is a result of a "judeo/christian work ethic", unless you're afraid of them being challenged and shown to be wrong.

Those threads are long gone, you're welcome to start a new thread.
 
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If you read both paragraphs and you still think there is a problem so be it, you have the right to your opinion. But if that is the worse you can say about Geisler's book (that he "implied" that Eddington experiment had something to do with disproving a static universe) I'll be satisified with that.

Geisler's book misled you.
You've admitted that you got the wrong idea about Eddington's experiment.

You can go on saying that they didn't mean to mislead you. But you were misled. You have no reason to be satisfied.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3974247&postcount=642

FG: When did you first know that Eddington's experiment had nothing to do with testing that the Universe was static?

Doc: Not until you mentioned that was your take on what was said.
 
Their language was misleading. That is why you were misled into thinking that Eddington's experiment had something to do with showing that the universe is expanding.

Where did I ever say that I thought his experiment had something to do with showing the universe was expanding.
 
Where did I ever say that I thought his experiment had something to do with showing the universe was expanding.

Oh my mistake, then. Sorry.
Did you misunderstand my question? Or did I misunderstand your answer?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3974247&postcount=642

FG: When did you first know that Eddington's experiment had nothing to do with testing that the Universe was static?

Doc: Not until you mentioned that was your take on what was said.
 
Lastly, you keep claiming a similarity between Genesis and BB theory. It might help if you gave us something more meaty than a vaguely stated assertion. I’d be very interested to know how deep you think the similarities go. Are they as trivially shallow as they appear? (Yes, I'm joining the illustrious joobz and FireGarden bandwagon.)

Here are some things a little meatier from someone with a degree in physics from the University of Chicago.

The title of the article is "Genesis and Science ARE Compatible!"

http://www.mb-soft.com/public/genesis5.html
 
DOC, do you feel that if I present you with a guess and that which I guess about proves to be true that I was divinely inspired?
 
DOC said:
Here are some things a little meatier from someone with a degree in physics from the University of Chicago.

The title of the article is "Genesis and Science ARE Compatible!"

I guess the OP question is over and done with now.
 
I accept the universe had a beginning, just like the BB and Genesis says.

Here are some things a little meatier from someone with a degree in physics from the University of Chicago.

The title of the article is "Genesis and Science ARE Compatible!"

http://www.mb-soft.com/public/genesis5.html
Doc, There is no problem with you supporting the Big Bang Theory and Genesis. Just as the The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and The life of Brian tell us about Roman times. In both cases the former gives an accurate description and the latter a setting for an entertaining story.

The key is that you do accept the former. The big bang theory fills in the huge gaps in the Genesis account.The big bang triggered everything. Within the the first few fractions of a second, the laws of the universe were set allowing what we have today.

Obviously the next few billions of years were quite boring so who can honestly blame the authors of Genesis to cut it down to less tedious 6 days. The key however is that first second of time, it was all done and the conditions set to allow life on earth. At that point the wheels were in motion and the outcome an inevitability. Whoever lit the touchpaper had done their job.

Obviously some people buy into the flawed creator theory. A tinkerer who continuously fine tuns their creation. That suggests an incompetent who couldn't get it right first time, certainly not the biblical God.

I am pleased that like me you accept the big bang and in doing so understand that it alone was enough to allow us to be here today.
 
I accept the universe had a beginning, just like the BB and Genesis says. And I agree with Robert Jastrow's statement that the beginning was supernatural.

Genesis does not mention the creation of the universe and the only thing that it says God created "Ex nihilo" is light.
 
Here are some things a little meatier from someone with a degree in physics from the University of Chicago.

The title of the article is "Genesis and Science ARE Compatible!"

http://www.mb-soft.com/public/genesis5.html

I scrolled down to the verses on Genesis.

Gen. 1:1 - In the beginning God created heaven and earth

An introductory statement, which precedes the rest of Genesis 1.

I see! It's an introductory statement (akin to "Once upon a time"). So we have to ignore that this doesn't match with BB theory since it mentions the Earth too early.

Disappointing. I was expecting to be informed that the Earth was indeed created at the moment of the Big Bang -- just that it's constituent joules of energy were not collected in a form anyone would recognise as the Earth.

This might also be a vague reference to a Big Bang event to begin the existence of the Universe, for when scientists would eventually become capable of comprehending the possibility of such things.

A vague reference. Mmmm.

Gen. 1:2
This is a reference to the fact that there was no form or light or anything else. Most Big Bang theories suggest that there was a brief period that occurred before matter could exist.

The verse seems to be missing:
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Another reference to the Earth. And to waters.

The earth being formless could certainly be what I described above. But empty? You only describe something as empty if it can hold things.

Then comes verse 3:

God said 'Let there be light', and there was light.

This might be a reference to the creation of the multitude of stars in the Universe. Modern science would place this as beginning from a few million years after the Big Bang essentially through the present. Many stars (and therefore many sources of subdued light) existed by 6 billion years ago.

Logically, this seems to be a peculiar first item to create, if you think about it. Ancient people would probably expected ground or people to have been created first, then the other stuff. In ancient times, the sequence of Genesis events must have seemed very strange. Why plants before animals? Why water before plants? Why fishes before land creatures? Why light first?

Err, no. Water before light. Genesis clearly states that there was water before there was light.

Animals need to eat. They either eat other animals or they eat plants. I would have guessed that plants preceed animals. sim: Animals and plants need water. And plants need light, too. It would have been a bit silly to create them before light.

From a scientific perspective, a LOT happened here. Early on, ONLY the element Hydrogen existed, the very simplest of all atoms. Gravitation caused clouds of this Hydrogen to collect in large balls. When a ball got extremely large, the weight of all the overlying Hydrogen squeezed and heated the Hydrogen at the very center.

He's talking about stars.

Has he overlooked primordial nucleosynthesis?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primordial_nucleosynthesis

That's as much as I can manage for now. I was hoping to see where the first appearance of woman fits with the scientific version. Adam names the animals before he has even seen a female of his own species.
 
So at the beginning of the thread, DOC did not believe in the Big Bang at all, and now he does believe it but believes that it is not inconsistent with Genesis.

Ladies and Gentlemen, that's progress.
 
Here are some things a little meatier from someone with a degree in physics from the University of Chicago.

The title of the article is "Genesis and Science ARE Compatible!"

http://www.mb-soft.com/public/genesis5.html

Doesn't this entirely contradict the argument from incredulity that was your OP? Do you now accept that the Big Bang theory is a correct interpretation of the evidence? Do you now accept that the universe was once "smaller than a pea", despite your earlier assertions?
 
Maybe -- if you look at the one paragraph I brought in and ignore the following one I later brought in (that immediately followed it in the book).

From the book "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" by Geisler/Turek (Pg. 74):

"By 1922, Russian mathematician A. Friedmann had officially exposed Einstein's fudge factor as an algebraic error. (Incredibly in his quest to avoid a beginning, the great Einstein had divided by zero - something even schoolchildren know is a no-no!) Meanwhile the Dutch astronomer W. de Sitter had found that General Relativity required the universe to be expanding. And in 1927, the expanding of the universe was actually observed by astronomer E. Hubble..."

---

If you read both paragraphs and you still think there is a problem so be it,
taken together, there are still problems.
you have the right to your opinion. But if that is the worse you can say about Geisler's book (that he "implied" that Eddington experiment had something to do with disproving a static universe) I'll be satisified with that.
Well, it's not a minor point.
Geisler is merely wrong in what he understands or he writes to intentionally misslead.


Further, I still do not get the "divide by zero" error. Can you explain when Einstein did this? And shouldn't we be mad at the universe for making the same "error", causing singularities.
 
Has he overlooked primordial nucleosynthesis?
Hmm, yes the scriptures are lacking quite some definition here. But that hasn't stopped the multitudes from believing in genesis being true so far. In fact the sloppyness of scripture is a big advantage for interpreting it. Only gods made of rubber are flexible enough to meet up to the new survival hazards that the advances in scientific understanding pose to the god meme. I guess in the end we'll be stuck with the morphing gods of the superelastic kind. From that perspective it looks like the genesis vs big bang discussion is actively breeding these superstringy elastic gods out of their (rigid OT) predecessors.
 
Here are some things a little meatier from someone with a degree in physics from the University of Chicago.

The title of the article is "Genesis and Science ARE Compatible!"

http://www.mb-soft.com/public/genesis5.html

Thank you providing the response I requested. People are handling the details well enough without me, but I’ll make two points.

1. I'm afraid my reading of your link places the similarities between Genesis and the BB in the “trivially shallow” category. You apparently have to change the meanings of words (“day,” “earth,” “light,” etc.) to make it work. If some portion of your faith is dependent on word games... well, I don’t know why that should be compelling.

2. More importantly, I’ll reiterate what I’ve posted twice before. Anyone who thinks the physics of 100 years from now is going to look much like the physics of today -- cosmology included -- is trippin’. This is why I withdrew the request you responded to. But I do appreciate the effort.

3. Sorry, can’t resist. From the link...
The amazing similarity of Creation and science sequences confirms that from a scientific statistical point of view, the likelihood that the Bible could have been faked is probably far less than one in a million. That's a compelling statistically valid proof that the Bible MUST be what it claims to be, inspired by God himself!

I’m no expert on creation stories, but aren’t there many which agree with current science as well or better than the Bible, as far as the sequence goes? If so, wouldn’t that completely invalidate the premise of that link?
 
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So at the beginning of the thread, DOC did not believe in the Big Bang at all, and now he does believe it but believes that it is not inconsistent with Genesis.

Ladies and Gentlemen, that's progress.

You think its progress when someone will only accept reality when it can be shoe-horned into a bunch of jewish fairytales?
 
You think its progress when someone will only accept reality when it can be shoe-horned into a bunch of jewish fairytales?

Well, I think that if someone can, on examination of the evidence, go from "The Big Bang is absurd!" to "The Big Bang is correct!" in 17 pages of discussion might be able to go those few steps further.

He's getting there. Slowly. But at least he's moving in the right direction. I'm firmly of the opinion that he can be shaken from his newly-acquired position that the theory of the Big Bang and the narratives of Genesis can be reconciled. It'd be easier if he'd take the time for himself to learn the obvious differences (by, say, reading the books I offered him), but that's by the by.
 
I’m no expert on creation stories, but aren’t there many which agree with current science as well or better than the Bible, as far as the sequence goes? If so, wouldn’t that completely invalidate the premise of that link?


Yep. The Hawai'ian creation myth describes the correct order in which the islands were formed (Ni'ihau first, Big Island last), the correct manner of formation (volcanic activity), life forming in the ocean before migrating to the land, and having plants and people with a common ancestor. By C Johnson's logic, the Kumulipo is more true than the bible.

Well, a number of the details are wrong, and quite a bit is left out, but I would argue that it is at least as accurate, if not more so, than the Genesis account.
 

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