Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[Astrophotographer]

I read it years ago. Maybe you should read Meldrum's debunking of Daegling.

Well, it has been shown several times on these documentaries that the walk can be done. I guess Meldrum was wrong. If you want to keep repeating the myth to assure yourself that it can not be done, feel free to believe it. However, you can't sell that here.

 

[Correa Neto]

It was tried on MABRC back when we were trying to be unlike other boards. After some thoughtful, informative and feisty posts it turned into something of a brawl between a 6-day creationist and a British atheist. One of the Admins misunderstood something that was said, the director stepped in and put it to a vote of the mods. The Debate Room was closed with one dissenting vote (mine) and a warning issued to the YECer.

Recently the same director reposted my collection of evolution vids from YouTube. There were views but no comments.

Discussion of religion is regarded as divisive, but I don't think anyone's using the ban to try to keep us together. That would be like herding cats.

I don't see a correlation, really. Members range from computer experts to biologists to construction workers. About the only thing active members seem to have in common is an interest in the subject and a willingness to get out with the ticks and rattlesnakes looking for answers.

Sorry, LAL, but I do see a link -actually more than one. Of course, as a skeptic I admit the possibility that I may be wrong.

There are a number of posters at BFF and Cryptomundo (those were the sites I used to check) who every now and then try to defend creationism and defend the position that the current existence of animals considered to be exctinct supports their beliefs. I suspect much of the "anti-mainstream science" drivel from many a poster comes from this source- religious fundamentalism. Some posters's writings clearly expose their fundamentalist and intolerant views. As soon as the debate pops out, here comes mod intervention -there, not here. I must add that I don't think its a small part of the footer community.

On a slightly OT digression, I don't think one can actually fully debate bigfoot -as well as many other fringe subjects- without debating (and eventually debunking) beliefs and religion.

I also think that if we investigate the links between religious belief and bigfoot investigation, we will find examples of bigfoot investigators loosing objectivity and impartiality. This raises an extra dosis of major doubts regarding bigfoot research.

I think this basic theme -belief- also causes an overlap between bigfoot enthusiasts and people who tender beliefs in other fringe subjects such as UFOs, crop circles and Martian civilizations.

 

[LTC8K6]

Lu isn't here to sell any ideas, she's just bored. Personally, I'm thrilled that she finds us entertaining and visits when she's bored. I'm glad we can help.

 

[LAL]

There are a number of posters at BFF and Cryptomundo (those were the sites I used to check) who every now and then try to defend creationism and defend the position that the current existence of animals considered to be exctinct supports their beliefs. I suspect much of the "anti-mainstream science" drivel from many a poster comes from this source- religious fundamentalism. Some posters's writings clearly expose their fundamentalist and intolerant views. As soon as the debate pops out, here comes mod intervention -there, not here. I must add that I don't think its a small part of the footer community.

That's something we're going through in this country. Check YouTube. You'll find comments are disabled on the Kent Hovind vids, but there's a lively debate going on on Ken Miller's talk at Case Western where we get inundated with copy and pastes from Answers in Genesis. Bigfoot is not a topic there.

The Religious Right is a loud minority in the US. It's something school boards are having to deal with, and go to court over.

I got into BFF through Creationism vs. Evolution debates on AOL message boards. Creationists were invading every fossil-related topic, reporting evolutionists and sending Burn-in-Hell-Sinner e-mails to us all.

Out of all the posters who responded on the MABRC EvC thread, one had read Darwin's Black Box and thought there was something to it, most accepted evolution but styled themselves Christians, one mentioned a "higher power", two were fundamentalists, one was a YECer and two were atheists. I wanted to keep it going partly so I could get an idea of whose critical thinking skills might be greatly impaired.

I'm not into the other things you mentioned, but you know that.

The exact comment that got me checking out sasquatch on the Net was a quote of Michael Schermer's on "people who believe in bigfoot also believe in UFO's and the Loch Ness Monster". It was off to the races after that.

It's an unfair characterization, IMO. We're a mixed bag. There's a lot of social pressure to conform, and you might find southern researchers are more prone to go to church Wednesday nights than those in the North, but I wouldn't want to assume that without a proper study.

 

[kitakaze]

Lu, I'm starting a thread today or tomorrow on Christian fundamentalism in Bigfootery. I'm very interested in it. I know you like to be asked for these types of things so may I move your posts here on the subject over there when I open it? Also, I know you're here out of boredom but I'd like your participation considering your experience. BTW, is bit Pastor Kerry not speaking to you anymore? Not my business so don't answer if you don't want to.

 

[SweatyYeti]

LAL wrote:

On the fence isn't a bad place for a scientist to be, especially when you face ridicule from colleagues for even taking an interest in a 'fringe" subject.

"On the fence"....another way of saying Patty's basic identity is "ambiguous".

That's exactly where a lot of people are (including Jref skeptics), with Patty....not sure if it's a man, or a beast.


BTW......nobody's sittin' on the fence with these fine fellas......

...come to think of it.....there isn't any suit that's ambiguous, when it's seen under conditions comparable to Patty's.



kitakaze wrote:

regarding this 'body contour' you speak of and the realism you confer to it please keep in mind that...

A) A shaggy orangutan limb or furry bear leg can suffer a complete lack of 'body contour'. They are not any less real for it.

I'm well aware that Orangutans don't have the leg shape that Patty does, kitty. But, as a result of that fact, Orangutans are irrelevant to the analysis of Patty's body contour...

FYI...also irrelevant to the analysis, are the Sonoma Video......and Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer....

 

[LAL]

Lu isn't here to sell any ideas, she's just bored. Personally, I'm thrilled that she finds us entertaining and visits when she's bored. I'm glad we can help.

My adreneline levels were getting low and I thought this might rev them up. I still get daily digests from JREF, even though I seldom read them. I'm probably just going through bigfoot burnout.

I'm really more interested in the T-Rex "soft tissue" being bacterial biofilms, but it's hard to get a good debate going on that on the public message boards I frequent.

I'm sorry I can't keep the shows I haven't seen yet straight. I've heard about them, but if they weren't on DVD or taped for me, I didn't get to see them. I was down to one snowy channel when the dish went up. I'd tried Dish Network before, but all they could get on the line of sight was PBS and a Christian channel. Direct TV got oak tree branches.

I now I have 70 channels and still have trouble finding something I want to watch.

 

[Correa Neto]

I really don't think the number or fundamentalists within bigfootery can be explained by the current cultural situation. It can, I think, be explained by reasons similar to those underneath the overlap with other fringe subjects- Belief. Its all it takes - the backing by solid evidence is not required.

If a person already believes say, in the universal flood solely based on the biblical account, believing in bigfoot is a piece of cake. I am sure some important people within bigfootery tender very... Uhm... Weird Singular religious beliefs. Especially if it can be somehow handy for your beliefs ("the extinct apeman in not extinct thus evolution is false"). Oh, well, maybe bigfoot is Cain...

And no, I don't think I am being unfair when I say there's an overlap between bigfootery and other fringe subjects such as UFOlogy, Martian civilizations, crop circles, etc. All it takes to confirm this is wandering through cryptozoology sites. Mixed bag? Yes, footers are a mixed bag. But with a high proportion of people who tender beliefs in other fringe subjects. I bet you know people who are part of this overlap.

Why? Because all it takes is belief. Because the evidence to back UFOs, crop circles, Martian civilizations, etc. is of the same caliber of those used to back bigfeet. You have to believe. You must want to believe. And join the religious fundamentalists ranting against mainstream science.

 

[LTC8K6]

Why is Sweaty calling a bunch of indistinct and variable lumps on Patty "body contour"?

Does anyone know?

Does he think Patty is just naturally lumpy? That her contour is "indistinct lumpiness"?

Maybe it's the patented Diogenes arm donuts that are the contour?

I'd ask Sweaty but you know how he is about actually answering questions. I know he says he'll get to them, but his queue must be a month long by now and I don't want to overload it.

 

[kitakaze]

That's exactly where a lot of people are (including Jref skeptics), with Patty....not sure if it's a man, or a beast.

I can't rule out the possibility that Patty is a Bigfoot. I can say considering the circumstances that it is so unlikely that there is a better chance of YEC being correct.

BTW......nobody's sittin' on the fence with these fine fellas......



[qimg]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/gorilla3.jpg[/qimg]

Yes. why is that, Sweaty? Seriously, you are the only one here who thinks that's clever. You're a maverick, I know. Go Mars!

...come to think of it.....there isn't any suit that's ambiguous, when it's seen under conditions comparable to Patty's.

A major element to consider is the time the PGF was made IOW the technology restraints (used to advantage).

That's why you have things like Hoffman and Freeman videos more recently.

I'm well aware that Orangutans don't have the leg shape that Patty does, kitty. But, as a result of that fact, Orangutans are irrelevant to the analysis of Patty's body contour...


[qimg]http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/Pat1.jpg[/qimg]

Again, define 'body contour'. Is this so hard for you?

 

[kitakaze]

I'm probably just going through bigfoot burnout.

This is called a reality hangover. There's only so much stupidity with garnish that a person who is not themselves stupid can take. Lu, I know you're not stupid. I know it's presumptive and arrogant but why don't you spend a lot more time with the real mysteries in this world like the T-Rex one you mention? Bigfoot as a social construct and Bigfootery as a social networking system and belief set is interesting. Bigfoot the elusive species of 8ft bipedal primate across North America is gob-smackingly stupid. I implore a smart person not to waste time on stupid things. It may be in vain but I'll try anyway.

 

[LAL]

Lu, I'm starting a thread today or tomorrow on Christian fundamentalism in Bigfootery. I'm very interested in it. I know you like to be asked for these types of things so may I move your posts here on the subject over there when I open it? Also, I know you're here out of boredom but I'd like your participation considering your experience. BTW, is bit Pastor Kerry not speaking to you anymore? Not my business so don't answer if you don't want to.

It's a long story and not one I'm going to go into here. He has problems.

If you guys can come up with some valid statistics, I might be interested, but this just seems to be way of characterizing the "bleevers" as wacko, wooish, short a few aces and, now, fanatical fundies.

There's a primate specialist with a bona fide PhD on BFF and at least two atheists that I know of who post on Cryptomondo. Why not do a thread on PhDs and atheists in Bigfootery?

I don't want to get hooked into another thread. I have one more day off before I'm back to the grind of work, school, moderating, building montages and answering my e-mail. I barely have time to read Mark Anderson, Ian Tattersal and Richard Dawkins.

I can't stop you from moving my posts, but you don't have my permission. Since religion is a banned topic on moost boards and I seldom look at any of them, my opinon would be just as biased as yours. It's a non-isssue as far as I'm concerned.

You're in Japan, Correa's in Brazil and I'm in the Bible Belt. Be sure to inform me about my culture, guys.

 

[LAL]

This is called a reality hangover. There's only so much stupidity with garnish that a person who is not themselves stupid can take.

You're way off base, m'dear. I burn out on anything I spend too much time on, temporarily at least. Right now it's creationism vs. evolution (ERVs, dammit!) and silversmithing as well, although the new assignment kind of perked my interest.

It's one thing to read posts because you want to, another because it's your job. I've been on the boards for years now and interested since 1968. There's just not much exciting and new about it for me any more.

I don't think it's stupid at all. Being interested in cosmology was gob-smackingly stupid in Galileo's time. At least I don't have to worry about lifetime house arrest.

 

[LAL]

If a person already believes say, in the universal flood solely based on the biblical account, believing in bigfoot is a piece of cake.

Actually, when the Wallace family (or was it BH?) somehow made national news, some of the loudest crowing was on creationist sites, to the tune of "Evolutionists wanted you to believe this is a missing link - snark, snark - it's all a hoax". (Picture of Patty included, of course.)The idea of another hominid on earth is a definite threat to their belief system, although they may rationalize it as "just another one of God's creatures". (Neandertals are sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, you know.)

I have no idea how most of the members in most of the groups believe. The fanatics are quickly shut down for violation of guidelines. We do it on sex and politics too. Descent with modification from Gigantopithecus or Paranthropus is okay, although the Nephalim have been known to sneak in.

I know many have had experiences themselves or know people who have, which is why they've joined. Some just seem to be curious. Some are leaving other groups or wanting to join others in their area on field trips.

You might have better luck correlating it to a preference for vanilla pudding or John McCain.

 

[kitakaze]

It's a long story and not one I'm going to go into here. He has problems.

This we knew. People passionate about such things are of course common but I will not say that such are representative of the average footer because it's not true.

I can't stop you from moving my posts, but you don't have my permission. Since religion is a banned topic on moost boards and I seldom look at any of them, my opinon would be just as biased as yours. It's a non-isssue as far as I'm concerned.

So I won't. I will not include your perspectives in a subject you do not wish to participate in. YEC weirdness is a part of Bigfootery nonetheless.

You're in Japan, Correa's in Brazil and I'm in the Bible Belt. Be sure to inform me about my culture, guys.

Brazil... Really big Jesus statue. Starts with a 'C', ends with an 'ism'. Not a bad place for perspectives. As for Japan, yes, it's the biggest prude Christianity has ever tried to penetrate but that has nothing to do with me understanding what you think is 'your' culture.

 

[kitakaze]

It's one thing to read posts because you want to, another because it's your job.

MABRC pays you? It's your income? Lu can't pay the bills without sifting footer posts?

 

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

Does it matter that Romney denied any involvement with the PGF?

Not at all. I'm talking about how people can do "the walk," not saying that someone specific was in the suit. By the way, the "someone" and "say" links in post #15166 lead to a Spanish-dubbed version of the "Best Evidence" program from the Discovery Channel.

I don't think you understand the concept of the "swimming gait".

I don't think you watched any of the links I provided.

Dr. Swindler co-authored a paper with Dr. Meldrum (on the Skookum cast) and would have attended the Willow Creek symposium in 2003 if his health had permitted. His comments on MQ were quite a change from dismissing the PGF as a "guy in a costume" in 1996.

You seem to be missing my point about Dr. Swindler. I was pointing out that, despite what some would have us believe, Dr. Swindler was not a skeptic. I should note that one can support the idea of Bigfoot existing without supporting the PGF. Also, as I previously noted, Dr. Swindler's reasons (at least the ones expressed on Monsterquest) for Patty not being a person in a costume are completely wrong and I provided evidence proving my point. Hell, here's some more...

Masks can have moving mouths. They can also have moving (0:46-0:48) eyelids (0:10-0:17).

I also feel that Dr. Krantz's trying to do the "leg lift" consciously instead of doing it inconsciously as a result of wearing oversized footwear was a huge mistake on his part. Here are (NSFW, 1:20-1:22 and 3:11-3:13) some examples (2:04-2:08) of people walking and running in big footwear. You'll have to pause and unpause several times while watching for the full effect.

 

[LTC8K6]

I don't think you understand the concept of the "swimming gait".

Apparently Dr. W.C. Osman Hill didn't understand it either when he saw the PGF.

 

[SweatyYeti]

kitakaze wrote:

3) Sweaty then takes a large sized close up high quality commercial image of the Horrordome suit and compares it to a small low quality blown up image from the PGF taken from a distance saying that back of the leg suffers from a complete lack of an ambiguous quality he refers to as 'body contour'.

Ok, here you go, kitty....here's the horrordome suit....shrunken and fuzzed-up...to more closely approximate Patty...

Gee....that's funny........we're not getting any of the body contour/bulging that we see with Patty.

Shouldn't we be??
According to you...the lower focus, smaller size image helps give Patty that special appearance of real muscle, with movement, and well-defined body contour.


I know........maybe if I make the image a little smaller....that'll do the trick...

Aha!!! Now I see the bulging muscles!

 

[LTC8K6]

Could you make the fingers bend, Sweaty?

I'm sure that will do it.