WTC 1 & 2. What happened after collapse initiation?

[cmcaulif]

AA. I see the upper block being destroyed before any initiation and contact.

BB. This rubble layer that you introduced in the discussion, what is it? It doesn't sound very solid, so how can it destroy anything? And what forces are acting on this layer from above and below?

Seffen talks about 'a moving intermediate block betaL between the upper block and a crush front' that apparently consist of semi-broken parts, rubble, and produces a crush front, actually 280+ crush fronts that are perfectly applied to the 280+ columns at every stage of the crush down. The uniform density of this intermediate block is apparently increasing due compacting when destroying the tower.

Is it the rubble layer?

So when collapse occurs the liers now have an upper block that is not destroyed, then a rubble layer and below this rubble layer a 'crush front' and then intact structure waiting to be destroyed. NWO strucrural damage analysis in a nut shell. Quite nutty.

RE: AA, ask gregory urich for the frame by frame, if you still cant see there is little crush up, then you must not want to see it.

RE BB, I already explained what the so called rubble layer is and told you where you can find physical evidence that demonstrates that it was there(e.g. stacked floors in meyerowitz photos). Just re read the bits of my posts you have been ignoring.

It does not matter how solid or not solid this layer is, if it has KE, it has destructive power. At both the WTC and the pentagon, forensic examination(pentagon only, for obvious reasons) as well as numerical analysis have shown that fluid, the jet fuel, had enormous destructive power. This has been confirmed by gov't and independent investigators.

Since you seem to be consistently ignoring my responses, and preferring to repeat yourself instead, not to mention the growing evidence that you simply may be a crazy person, you will understand if I excuse myself from this discussion.

 

[Heiwa]

RE BB, I already explained what the so called rubble layer is and told you where you can find physical evidence that demonstrates that it was there(e.g. stacked floors in meyerowitz photos). Just re read the bits of my posts you have been ignoring.

It does not matter how solid or not solid this layer is, if it has KE, it has destructive power. At both the WTC and the pentagon, forensic examination(pentagon only, for obvious reasons) as well as numerical analysis have shown that fluid, the jet fuel, had enormous destructive power. This has been confirmed by gov't and independent investigators.

I have not seen any photos of stacked floors either! Stacked floors would indicate CD in my opinion. Gravity loads on an upper block causing it to displace downwards do not stack floors! The gravity loads/forces only locally damage the floors that then get entangled into one another, friction develops and further destruction should be arrested. The only extra energy released is the hinging of the floors but it is very small.

Topic is what happened after initiation! Say initiation is failure of supporting structure. It can only cause a downward displacement of the structure above (the upper block). It cannot cause free fall, near free fall, impacts or anything like that. During this initial downward displacement, the failing structure is deformed and damaged and absorbs energy, i.e. acts as a damper.
Then there should be contact(s) against undamaged structure below. It is not really the upper block that contacts but the intermediate structure that just failed.
And what was that structure? Right! Only columns. And I suggest that these columns or what is left of them damages the adjacent floors, i.e. the floor above (in the upper block) and below (in the lower structure).
So the upper block starts being damaged at contact after initiation.

BUT, NIST, Bazant, Seffen and other 'liers' suggest it remains intact, even if it is not seen on any videos, etc.

It is quite difficult to discuss this matter when we cannot agree on what should happen first after initiation, i.e. that the upper block should be damaged (and absorb energy) at contact and that friction develops at contact (and absorbs energy).

There are difficulties to explain the 'mushroom' dust clouds developing upwards or sideways at contact. Contact due to gravity is just failed parts touching each other and cannot produce these mushrooms. Try it yourself! Drop a brick on another brick and no mushrooms develop. So what produced the mushrooms?

Take WTC2 just after initiation. The top part is tilting to one side (due to failure on one side only of intermediate structure?) and a big mushroom develops between the top part and the lower structure on the other side ... where there is no damage. Downward displacement has not even started on that side but the mushrooms there are quite visible. LCD in action?

 

[Pardalis]

There are difficulties to explain the 'mushroom' dust clouds developing upwards or sideways at contact. Contact due to gravity is just failed parts touching each other and cannot produce these mushrooms. Try it yourself! Drop a brick on another brick and no mushrooms develop. So what produced the mushrooms?

You're not taking into account the massive forces at hand. If you throw a brick 200 miles an hour onto another brick, for sure it'll create a dust cloud.

 

[Heiwa]

You're not taking into account the massive forces at hand. If you throw a brick 200 miles an hour onto another brick, for sure it'll create a dust cloud.

The forces at hand are not massive and they are applied to the floors above and below the failed structure.

And the contact column/floor velocity is abt. 3 m/s. The mushroom seems to expand at a much higher velocity.

How can a column contacting a floor at low velocity produce a mushroom that expands at higher velocity? It seems it needs assistance!

 

[GlennB]

How can a column contacting a floor at low velocity produce a mushroom that expands at higher velocity? It seems it needs assistance!

Then we can only assume you have never demolished a drywall (gypsum plasterboard) ceiling or partition wall.

 

[Heiwa]

Then we can only assume you have never demolished a drywall (gypsum plasterboard) ceiling or partition wall.

Well, if you look at the videos you also see individual mushrooms going through the roof of WTC1, that is supposed to be intact, prior to any real destruction of the lower structure. We are of course told that it was the 47 core columns or what remained in the fire zone that collapsed first, allowing the core to drop through the upper block (not proven of course), but maybe what caused those mushrooms also caused the core to drop. The roof mushrooms seem to grow up before the core (or the roof) actually drops.
But maybe it was only some gypsum plasterboards that were crushed.
According Bazant the upper block incl. roof is intact all the time during the destruction, so no gypsum plasterboards are crushed there until the famous push-up 10-12 seconds later against the ground.

 

[WildCat]

We are of course told that it was the 47 core columns or what remained in the fire zone that collapsed first,

We are? By who, and where?

 

[Heiwa]

We are? By who, and where?

NIST report - NISTNCSTAR1-6D chapter 5.2

 

[Newtons Bit]

NIST report - NISTNCSTAR1-6D chapter 5.2

Uhh, no it doesn't. But why don't you go ahead and quote the section of that report that you think says that.

 

[Pardalis]

The forces at hand are not massive

Yes they are.

For you to compare it with dropping a brick onto another is insane.

 

[phunk]

The forces at hand are not massive and they are applied to the floors above and below the failed structure.

And the contact column/floor velocity is abt. 3 m/s. The mushroom seems to expand at a much higher velocity.

How can a column contacting a floor at low velocity produce a mushroom that expands at higher velocity? It seems it needs assistance!

The cross sectional area of the falling building was at least 10 times the area of the windows that the air had to squeeze through (rough estimate), therefore the air was forced out of the building 10x the speed that the upper section fell.

 

[Heiwa]

The cross sectional area of the falling building was at least 10 times the area of the windows that the air had to squeeze through (rough estimate), therefore the air was forced out of the building 10x the speed that the upper section fell.

Let's do a calculation. Cross sectional area say 63 x 63 = 3969 m². Circumferential area 4 x 63 x 3.6 = 907.2 m² or only about 4.4 times the floor area. OK, there are window frames (steel columns) in the way also but say they blow out also.

So if a complete intact floor pushes down on an intact floor below with a certain velocity the air blows out sideways 4.4 times faster (forgetting friction and air resistance as usual and lift shafts/holes in the floors).

That's for the air. But what about débris and dust? It should not be blown out at all. Air cannot blow out steel parts.

And the dust? Well, it has to be produced first by the crush down one floor crushing against another floor and then it should be pushed out ... but isn't it a little late? Squeezed between two floors?

Anyway, according my calculations the destruction would have been arrested after one/two seconds when 3-4 floors above get entangled with 3-4 floors below. Friction does the rest. No rubble and very little dust.

Clap your hands in front of your face and note that you are not blown away by the air compressed between your hands. Why is that?

 

[Pardalis]

Clap your hands in front of your face and note that you are not blown away by the air compressed between your hands. Why is that?

Gee Heiwa, don't you have any concept of scale?

Could you bend this bar? So by your logic if you can't do that with the strength in your arms then this could not have happened?

 

[Heiwa]

Yes they are.

For you to compare it with dropping a brick onto another is insane.

If WTC1 upper block would have displaced downwards, only vertical steel columns would have punched holes in the floors, with well known results (see may papers). The locally damaged floors would then drop on one another and then friction would stop further destruction. No rubble, no débris, very little smoke ejection.
No bricks dropping anywhere.
All my children readers understand this. Try yourself.

Another experiment is to push a knife through your hand and see what happens (its like a column through a floor). Do not try it.

 

[Heiwa]

Gee Heiwa, don't you have any concept of scale?

Could you bend this bar? So by your logic if you can't do that with the strength in your arms then this could not have happened?

This is evidently not caused by gravity forces. They would have slipped off long before that. So this is a consequence of full scale CD.

Thanks for observation.

 

[Pardalis]

They would have slipped off long before that.

"slipped"?

 

[beachnut]

Let's do a calculation. Cross sectional area say 63 x 63 = 3969 m². Circumferential area 4 x 63 x 3.6 = 907.2 m² or only about 4.4 times the floor area. OK, there are window frames (steel columns) in the way also but say they blow out also.

So if a complete intact floor pushes down on an intact floor below with a certain velocity the air blows out sideways 4.4 times faster (forgetting friction and air resistance as usual and lift shafts/holes in the floors).

That's for the air. But what about débris and dust? It should not be blown out at all. Air cannot blow out steel parts.

And the dust? Well, it has to be produced first by the crush down one floor crushing against another floor and then it should be pushed out ... but isn't it a little late? Squeezed between two floors?

Anyway, according my calculations the destruction would have been arrested after one/two seconds when 3-4 floors above get entangled with 3-4 floors below. Friction does the rest. No rubble and very little dust.

Clap your hands in front of your face and note that you are not blown away by the air compressed between your hands. Why is that?

Oops, one floor of the WTC can only hold 11 more floors, and then it collapses. OOPS, your ideas fails when you make up stupid models with doltish parameters of woo, based on the experience of marine conspiracy hound; you. (25,000,000 pounds)

 

[Newtons Bit]

Let's do a calculation. Cross sectional area say 63 x 63 = 3969 m². Circumferential area 4 x 63 x 3.6 = 907.2 m² or only about 4.4 times the floor area. OK, there are window frames (steel columns) in the way also but say they blow out also.

So if a complete intact floor pushes down on an intact floor below with a certain velocity the air blows out sideways 4.4 times faster (forgetting friction and air resistance as usual and lift shafts/holes in the floors).

That's for the air. But what about débris and dust? It should not be blown out at all. Air cannot blow out steel parts.

And the dust? Well, it has to be produced first by the crush down one floor crushing against another floor and then it should be pushed out ... but isn't it a little late? Squeezed between two floors?

Anyway, according my calculations the destruction would have been arrested after one/two seconds when 3-4 floors above get entangled with 3-4 floors below. Friction does the rest. No rubble and very little dust.

Clap your hands in front of your face and note that you are not blown away by the air compressed between your hands. Why is that?

You contradicted yourself in your own post. Amazing.

 

[phunk]

Let's do a calculation. Cross sectional area say 63 x 63 = 3969 m². Circumferential area 4 x 63 x 3.6 = 907.2 m² or only about 4.4 times the floor area. OK, there are window frames (steel columns) in the way also but say they blow out also.

So if a complete intact floor pushes down on an intact floor below with a certain velocity the air blows out sideways 4.4 times faster (forgetting friction and air resistance as usual and lift shafts/holes in the floors).

Well, as you said, the windows are framed by the steel columns, so that will reduce the space by half. Also, the 3.6 in your calculation is only at the instant that the collapse starts, when nothing has moved yet. That distance will be shrinking to 0 as the collapse accelerates up to the 3 m/s you estimated for the first impact.

So even if we underestimate 4.4 as the starting figure, that factor will increase at an exponential rate, 3.6 / (3.6 - 1/2 * a * t²) as the floors come together.

That's for the air. But what about débris and dust? It should not be blown out at all. Air cannot blow out steel parts.

Steel colliding with steel can 'blow out' steel parts. Steel being bent to the breaking point can catapult out steel parts. Lots of energy is available when 10 storys of an acre-wide building start moving.

And the dust? Well, it has to be produced first by the crush down one floor crushing against another floor and then it should be pushed out ... but isn't it a little late? Squeezed between two floors?

It was mostly smoke being blown out at the very beginning of the collapse. But no, the floors don't have to squeeze all the way together to generate dust. The drywall was on the walls, vertically of course, so as soon as the ceiling started to move it would be crushing the drywall. Also, a lot of it would have been crushed already by the impact of the planes, and the floors that fell prior to the global collapse.

Anyway, according my calculations the destruction would have been arrested after one/two seconds when 3-4 floors above get entangled with 3-4 floors below. Friction does the rest. No rubble and very little dust.

When can we see these mysterious friction calculations?

Clap your hands in front of your face and note that you are not blown away by the air compressed between your hands. Why is that?

Because my hands aren't an acre wide.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

It was mostly smoke being blown out at the very beginning of the collapse. But no, the floors don't have to squeeze all the way together to generate dust. The drywall was on the walls, vertically of course, so as soon as the ceiling started to move it would be crushing the drywall. Also, a lot of it would have been crushed already by the impact of the planes, and the floors that fell prior to the global collapse.

Speaking of collapse initiation... I've explained to Heiwa that a number of things contribute to the initial burst of dust such as Spalled concrete from the floors in the fire zones, soot from burning paper, and furniture, as well as the smoke in the air... somehow none of those come to his mind...