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Do Most Atheists Know that science..... Part 2

ETA I'm never going to respond to your question until I hear you say, I didn't understand big bang singularity at the time I gave the wrong definition.

All you have to say is I didn't understand singularity. Can you say that??

If you do, I'll answer your question.

ETA And if you would have said above, "My original argument was unaffected by "my" error in singularity instead of was unaffected by "the" error in singularity, I wouldn't even have put up this post.

DOC this is not a very impressive way to conduct yourself, sorry. Joobz has said he made an error, and he was quick to say so. We can all see that he did that, and that he has repeated that many times. Your demand is that you be permitted to choose the form of words he uses to say so. Now, unless you have him physically at your mercy, you are not going to be able to make him say "uncle". Even if you do have the power to do so it is not going to be seen as a very grown up thing to do, IMO. It comes across as vindictive and ungenerous. And utterly pointless.

Now you say you will not answer his question till he complies with your demand. Fine. If that is what floats your boat it leads me to think certain things about you which may or may not be justified; but there is no reason at all for you to care about that. All I will say is that it does render me less likely to respect your position, since if you have an answer I would have thought you would be eager to move on.

Beyond this you seem to wish to show that those of us who are not scientists have faith in science, in the same way that believers have faith in their religion. This argument has been run many times and it has been answered, not very satisfactorily from my point of view. So I will give you this much: I do not understand science. I am not alone, and if that is what you wish to establish, there it is. I will go further. Scientists in one field do not always understand science in another. And I will go further yet. Scientists at the forefront of new research often do not understand the meaning of their results. We see this most clearly in social sciences (but that is another topic, perhaps) We also see it in hard science. Scientists are people, and they learn and speculate from the basis of their background. That includes a lot more knowledge of science than I will ever have; but it includes both constraints from how our brains are wired and blinds spots bequeathed by our culture. They know this and they continually try to refine their methods to minimise those influences. But when we get to the things we find hard to visualise (as in your OP, for example), they stuggle. Less than I do cos they have more practice, but yet they struggle.

All of that does not bother me because I do accept that those who pursue it do so using a method I do understand; and they reach their conclusions on the basis of carefully constructed experiments to test clearly expressed hypotheses. I accept that if I wished to do the work I could (in principle) follow the progress in any given field, and I could learn what the hypotheses were and what the crucial experiments were which led to the current understanding.

This is where it differs from faith in religion. Both have a reliance on what I will call philosophy, for now. People who are thinking about things and how they work always come up against problems they cannot yet solve. And they think about them. If they can they do things to test the ideas they have: but if there is no practical way to test something it does not stop us thinking.

Science exists as a discipline devoted to the development of the testable hypothesis. This approach has been found to work in a wide variety of fields for a wide variety of questions. Sometimes its success leads people to believe it can be applied to all fields. I do not agree with this but nothing at all hangs on it. If they are right the are right. There is no loss in pursuing that idea because we will learn from the attempt and already we have learned more than could have been dreamed of before the method was found. That is wonderful to me. And if there are limits we will learn that too. Which is enough to make me happy.

I am not sure if I am being very clear here, but the point I am trying to make is that if you prove us lay people do not understand the details of what scientists are doing you have not undercut anything substantial at all. One is either content to understand and accept the scientific method or one is not. If you are then absent outright fraud there is no requirement not to accept what experts tell us because we can always go and look for ourselves, though perhaps few of us do.

This cannot be done with religion. It is also founded on philosophy but there is no method by which the conclusions can be tested and so I, as a lay person, cannot verify those conclusion by hard work and honest research.

I think you are conflating two meanings of faith: one is trust and the other is unquestionable belief. I trust the scientific method, but I do not have unquestioned belief in scientists of their findings. I am not sure if that is any help but it is the best I can do to address what I (perhaps wrongly) take to be your goal here
 
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The above sounds like a song and dance man routine, and makes no sense to me.

I asked you to define singularity.





You gave the wrong definition of "infinite mass and zero volume". Your use of the wording of "infinite mass" showed a misunderstanding of the concept of big bang singularity.

Why can't you just say, Ok, I didn't understand it, and leave it at that. All this other song and dance just hurts your credibility. And as I said before, the only reason I'm persistent about this is your "constant talk" about my alleged misunderstanding of scientific terms. Why can't you just say, You know what, I admit it, I just didn't understand it at the time, but now I do. Until you can swallow your pride and say that, your not going to be credible. There is no shame in not knowing it, but there is shame in your refusal to admit it and trying to deflect the blame on me with a song and dance.

ETA I'm never going to respond to your question until I hear you say, I didn't understand big bang singularity at the time I gave the wrong definition.

All you have to say is I didn't understand singularity. Can you say that??

If you do, I'll answer your question.

ETA And if you would have said above, "My original argument was unaffected by "my" error in singularity instead of was unaffected by "the" error in singularity, I wouldn't even have put up this post.

I am going to break my personal rule against replying directly to certain trolls on this forum to say: Joobz used one wrong word ("mass" instead of "density") - and it is easy to see where the confusion arose - when defining a singularity. Joobz has since acknowledged the error. I don't believe that the selection of one wrong word proves a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of "singularity." Substitute "density" for "mass" in what Joobz originally wrote and you have a simple, clear definition of "singularity" that could be understood by most people.

You, doc, on the other hand, have proven repeatedly that all you have is a fundamental misunderstanding of most scientific hypotheses, theories, experiments and principles.
 
How 'bout these terms:

Quantum tunneling,

scattering matrix,

pi mason,

rho mason,

virtual W basons,

antineutrino.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

I'm glad the author of Genesis didn't use this kind of language.

I guess he wasn't a Mason. :D
And what is a "bason"? If tunneling did not work, you couldn't be typing on this forum, and one huge number of folks using a STM every day would be very upset.

Quantum tunneling is very easy to demonstrate using aluminum foil and a Radio Shack ohmmeter.
Mesons, bosons, neutrinos and all the other particles are merely names given to the many products of high energy collisions observed in colliders. What would be preferred as names? "Let there be lighton", "Lo and beholdon", "firmamenton"?
 
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Like I said, Jastrow is not speaking of cosmology but rather theology. His cosmologist background isn't relevant here.

He was speaking about both.
I don't agree with his claim that the Big Bang can never be explained, but that is his claim. Since Jastrow is a cosmologist, I have to admit that his opinion on this deserves consideration. I would either have to find an argument or another cosmologist in order to disagree with him.

My argument is by analogy.
Science manages to understand atomic decay without having to refer to cause and effect to explain why one atom decays and another doesn't. It was this lack of cause and effect which Jastrow says scientists can't stomach when considering the BB. By showing scientists can stomach such a thing, I have undermined Jastrow's argument.

But I still have to admit he outranks me.

If it was used as sole support of a point, yes.

It would depend on the point.
I looked up a post where Doc quotes Jastrow:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3943678&postcount=314

He was accused of pointing to something which can't be explained and claiming that wins the argument. This was described as pathetic. So Doc quoted a cosmologist who says, indeed, that the BB cannot be explained and that supernatural forces are therefore proven to be at work.

As a cosmologist, Jastrow can talk about the explainability of the BB. How he defines supernatural forces isn't clear to me, but it's possible he merely uses the term as an alternative to an explainable BB.

He describes himself as an agnostic, so I don't see why he puts so much emphasis on a comparison with Biblical genesis. But, at that point, he is going beyond cosmology and science.

Unfortunately, this is just wrong. DOC didn't start the discussion with the quote, nor has he expanded upon it.

OK, it wasn't the start of the discussion.
It was dismissed by almost everyone. That still leaves him the option to carry on, of course. But less motivation.
 
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Beyond this you seem to wish to show that those of us who are not scientists have faith in science, in the same way that believers have faith in their religion. This argument has been run many times and it has been answered, not very satisfactorily from my point of view. So I will give you this much: I do not understand science. I am not alone, and if that is what you wish to establish, there it is. I will go further. Scientists in one field do not always understand science in another. And I will go further yet. Scientists at the forefront of new research often do not understand the meaning of their results. We see this most clearly in social sciences (but that is another topic, perhaps) We also see it in hard science. Scientists are people, and they learn and speculate from the basis of their background. That includes a lot more knowledge of science than I will ever have; but it includes both constraints from how our brains are wired and blinds spots bequeathed by our culture. They know this and they continually try to refine their methods to minimise those influences. But when we get to the things we find hard to visualise (as in your OP, for example), they stuggle. Less than I do cos they have more practice, but yet they struggle.

All of that does not bother me because I do accept that those who pursue it do so using a method I do understand; and they reach their conclusions on the basis of carefully constructed experiments to test clearly expressed hypotheses. I accept that if I wished to do the work I could (in principle) follow the progress in any given field, and I could learn what the hypotheses were and what the crucial experiments were which led to the current understanding.

Absolutely.
Great post, Fiona.

I find I'm wrong about evolution, in some way or other, in almost every related conversation I have on this forum. I'm not ashamed to admit it.

Do I believe in things I don't understand? Not intentionally. But it can't be helped because it's not always obvious when I've misunderstood something.

What follows these admissions, Doc?
 
Not at all. I asked if you believed that the universe was non-existent when it was a singularity. I refined this question to ask, do you believe the universe was immediately pre-bigbang.


Which I answered. and was found later to be incorrect. I've admitted this multiple times. Do you not see the irnoy of avoiding my questions, when I so readily answer yours?



Do you believe that the mistatement on my part is fundemental to the question I posed?

I have admitted the error. Multiple times. I find your avoidance of my questions to be the telling part. Again, you wrote the long post instead of answering me.

My errors do not invalidate that argument. If you feel I am wrong regarding that, then by all means answer the questions and prove me wrong.




IN post 62, I've admitted I was wrong. every post since, which I have used the words "My mistake, "My error" reinforces my acknowledging this error. Your claim that I have not admitted it is dishonest and a distraction.

I will not abide by your demands simply becuase they are nonsense. I've admitted the error. IF you are unable to accept that. Fine. Why not, then, answer other people's questions?

All you have to say is I didn't understand singularity. Can you say that??

If you do, I'll answer your question.
Don't answer my questions then. Why not answer other people's questions? Why not address Firegarden's posts?

You claim to have limited time to respond to everyone. Then why not respond to on topic issues instead of trying to discredit me?



I've admitted my error multiple times. Your demands are dishonest.

Admitting to error about your definition of singularity is not the same thing as saying "I did not understand singularity". If it was then you wouldn't mind saying it, but you can't say it, you're incapable of saying it.. Please tell me why you can't say it when you "so often" said I did not understand terms.

ETA: Here's an example of how easily joobz can use the term "does not understand" when it involves me:

joobz said:
To your first sentence, yes. Yes, it has been mentioned. However, your second sentence makes it clear that you do not understand why gravity was mentioned.
This post only again further strengthens my statement.
"DOC does not understand the energy neutral nature of the universe"
 
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Admitting to error about your definition of singularity is not the same thing as saying "I did not understand singularity". If it was then you wouldn't mind saying it, but you can't say it, you're incapable of saying it.. Please tell me why you can't say it when you "so often" said I did not understand terms.

In exactly what way did joobz not understand singularity, as opposed to incorrectly defining it? Please explain the implications of the (already admitted) error. What is the difference in specifying infinite mass instead of infinite density. Show your working.

You have, by the same token, demonstrated your complete failure to understand mesons and bosons. Here's your opportunity to apologise.
 
Admitting to error about your definition of singularity is not the same thing as saying "I did not understand singularity". If it was then you wouldn't mind saying it, but you can't say it, you're incapable of saying it.. Please tell me why you can't say it when you "so often" said I did not understand terms.
It's clear you are using this issue as a way of avoiding discussion regarding your OP. If you wish to start a thread regarding whether I was wrong about singularities in principle or not, I'd be happy to discuss it there. I believe there is ample evidence in all my discussions that the mistake I made does not negatively impact the argument I was making.

I would be happy to compare and contrast your mistakes to mine. But to do so in this thread would only serve to derail it further.


Now, perhaps you'd like to remain on topic and answer some of the unadressed points that have been made. You've made excuses why you won't answer my on topic comments, so don't answer those. Answer the ones from any number of posters. Start with Firegarden, who has been extremely gentlemanly towards everyone. Indeed, I think his behavior has been outstanding.
 
It's clear you are using this issue as a way of avoiding discussion regarding your OP. If you wish to start a thread regarding whether I was wrong about singularities in principle or not, I'd be happy to discuss it there. I believe there is ample evidence in all my discussions that the mistake I made does not negatively impact the argument I was making.

The argument you were making (whatever it was) is not relevant to this issue. You are a master at deflection.

Translation: you are incapable of saying "I did not understand" when you can "so easily" say I did not understand something.

ETA: Can't you see how this hurts your credibility.
 
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The argument you were making (whatever it was) is not relevant to this issue. You are a master at deflection.
ASking you to respond to my "on topic" questions is deflection?

Translation: you are incapable of saying "I did not understand" when you can "so easily" say I did not understand something.

ETA: Can't you see how this hurts your credibility.
I am willing to discuss this in a new thread. Feel free to present and argument against me there. If I am found in error, I will admit it.

In this thread, however, you could be responding to
Fiona, Firegarden, Zooterkin, Elizabeth 1.... any number of posters who have challenged your argument directly and you have avoided all of these posts. If you believe my credibility to be so poor, then answer them instead.
 
The argument you were making (whatever it was) is not relevant to this issue. You are a master at deflection.

Translation: you are incapable of saying "I did not understand" when you can "so easily" say I did not understand something.

ETA: Can't you see how this hurts your credibility.

Someone please tell me this is intentional, I didn't think it was possible to be this dense.
 
Several Members have drawn my attention back to this thread; I do not have the time to wade through 10 pages at the moment so a general reminder to try to stick the topic (whatever it's drifted to be at this point of time).
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
The problem with using Jastrow isn’t only that it’s an appeal to authority. It’s that Jastrow’s argument itself is a logical fallacy -- appeal to ignorance, and possibly incredulity.

Jastrow and DOC suffer the same malady -- because they, personally, can’t understand how the BB might have happened, and because science hasn’t solved the problem in their lifetimes, their conclusion is that science will never solve it. Even worse, they conclude, for no good reason that I can see, that God (or the supernatural) is the only possible alternative.

The funny thing about Jastrow's quotes are that they appear to come from the late 70's. I don't think Witten even started contributing to string theory until the 80's. I believe M theory didn’t get off the ground until the 90’s. The COBE results didn’t come in until the 90’s. In short, there've been great leaps in cosmology since Jastrow condemned the BB to the supernatural.

One more point. DOC asks do we understand everything about the BB. The thing is, we could ask the same. DOC -- do you understand everything about God? If not, how can you say He's responsible for creation? If so, I'm quite sure we'd all like to hear about it.
 
My question is what percentage of atheists in the world do you estimate do not know this fact?

The only research I have seen on this suggests the figure is around 17.4% ;) Any figure I gave would be a guess, of no value.

And also do you believe that if an atheist did not know the above information, and then found out about it, do you believe this would in any way effect his feelings about science or his feelings about a possible God?

It would probably be +1 for "science is cool" and have absolutely no impact on her feelings about possible gods. I get the impression atheists sort of don't actually believe in god(s) and kinda don't feel the need to check each new fact they encounter for any impact on their lack of religious belief. Maybe if science proved that at t=0 the universe consisted of a note, hastily scribbled in blue wax crayon, reading "god wuz ere" it would get them thinking.

Atheists? Crayon some sense into them.


ETA - I just noticed Darat's mod box and am wondering if I might now be off topic for replying to the OP rather than "whatever it's drifted to be at this point of time".
 
The funny thing about Jastrow's quotes are that they appear to come from the late 70's. I don't think Witten even started contributing to string theory until the 80's. I believe M theory didn’t get off the ground until the 90’s. The COBE results didn’t come in until the 90’s. In short, there've been great leaps in cosmology since Jastrow condemned the BB to the supernatural.

That's a good point.
Did Jastrow ever change his mind? He died in 2008.

Google mostly turns up the quotes already given. It's a bit disappointing that no-one in the wider (non-forum) world seems to have debated him either! ;)
 
...snip...
Google mostly turns up the quotes already given. It's a bit disappointing that no-one in the wider (non-forum) world seems to have debated him either! ;)

But someone has, sort of. I posted an admittedly over-long quote upthread from Denis Dutton, of Sky and Telescope magazine. I'll just link to the source again. He makes some great points.

Critique of Jastrow's God and the Astronomers
 
Einstein might have been one such scientists -- refusing to believe that some things are simply random. But, as far as I'm aware, there is no cause and effect in the decay of an atom. Science has managed to overcome such a hurdle and describes atomic decay as a random process.

There's a very short thread about this here if you're interested.
 

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