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Is God evil?

Look, I'm not defending God, particularly since I don't think there is any such creature - I am only saying, if there was a god, that any sense of inconsistency or capriciousness or cruelty and indignation about those things we might have would by definition be misguided. You would be apply human sensibilities to the almighty which would be the height of hubris. If you were satan, you might be thrown out of heaven. I don't actually thing your squared circle analogy is exactly right on. You are talking about contradictory physical properties which are by definition not possible. However contradictory and inconsistent morality is perfectly possible. It wouldn't matter if God were completely capricious and arbitrary from our perspective - the only that matters is God's perspective in a God governed universe. And what about my point that it is an exercise in senselessness to try to convince people of the non-existence of God by showing he is cruel and arbitrary? All you might convince them of is that God is cruel and arbitrary and being God and all he is perfectly justified in being that. God doesn't exist, but he's a real bastard anyway????
 
billydkid said:
And what about my point that it is an exercise in senselessness to try to convince people of the non-existence of God by showing he is cruel and arbitrary? All you might convince them of is that God is cruel and arbitrary and being God and all he is perfectly justified in being that. God doesn't exist, but he's a real bastard anyway????
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Nice.

Add to the fact that any evidence being used to prove the cruel and arbitrary nature of God comes almost exclusively from a document (series of documents) which would require that A) You believe there is a God, and B) You believe that His/Her/Its actions are being accurately recorded by the "witnesses". Rejection of any one means rejection of the evidence being used to prove the point altogether.
 
Ethnikos said:
This part of your post, I agree with, the rest of it, depends on the definition of lazy writer.
This is a concept that I have felt was best explained in video game terms, but did not know the exact terminology.
Basically, I believe God created a universe with a built-in possibility of evil rising up, within it.
I think it was necessary, in order for the man (that God put into this universe) to reach his full potential of being god-like.
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Okay, so maybe God is a lead programmer for a cosmic video game publishing company. It's up to our brave band of heroes to find the cosmic macguffins hidden throughout the world necessary to restore creation to its perfect order. Along the way they must unlock the power of the Sword of Plot Advancement (perhaps it's the one Jesus had sticking out of his mouth). All of this will culminate in an epic final boss fight where the fate of the world rests in their hands!

Jesus: Attacks Anti-Christ.

Jesus: Attack roll: 15 + 8 = 23 Critical Hit!

Anti-Christ takes 25 damage.

Anti-Christ: Attack roll: 10 - 5 = 5 Miss.

Jesus: Casts Withering Fig.

Anti-Christ takes 18 damage.

Anti-Christ: Casts Flame Strike.

Jesus Saves! And takes half damage!

...Well you get the picture. :D
 
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RobRoy said:
Nice.

Add to the fact that any evidence being used to prove the cruel and arbitrary nature of God comes almost exclusively from a document (series of documents) which would require that A) You believe there is a God, and B) You believe that His/Her/Its actions are being accurately recorded by the "witnesses". Rejection of any one means rejection of the evidence being used to prove the point altogether.
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Yes, and that too.
 
Silentknight said:
Okay, so maybe God is a lead programmer for a cosmic video game publishing company.
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I am noticing that I was not very clear in my previous post.
I am not saying that it was necessary for evil to be put into the universe.
I do not think God put evil in the world but He made the possibility for evil to arise on its own.
If the universe was made so that it was impossible for anything to go wrong, the inhabitants would have been rather two dimensional and stunted in their growth potential.
How boring would a car racing video be if you could not crash?
The more a game depicts actual damage to your car the better.
Not necessarily because you enjoy a beat up car but because you can appreciate a pristine car at the end of a race.
The Gnostic version of the Cosmos kind of ruins the game because their goal is to find a self awareness that you are in a game.
A good game makes you forget you are in a game.
 
billydkid said:
Look, I'm not defending God, particularly since I don't think there is any such creature - I am only saying, if there was a god, that any sense of inconsistency or capriciousness or cruelty and indignation about those things we might have would by definition be misguided.
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Billy, I'm disagreeing with you for one very simple reason. Your position is irrational and it is the kind of irrational thinking that gives way to belief in god.

"God can do whatever he wants. If god wanted to make square circles he could."

I don't actually thing your squared circle analogy is exactly right on.
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I disagree for good reason.

You are talking about contradictory physical properties which are by definition not possible. However contradictory and inconsistent morality is perfectly possible.
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Not if you define god as all just and all merciful. That won't fly.


And what about my point that it is an exercise in senselessness to try to convince people of the non-existence of God by showing he is cruel and arbitrary?
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  • I have no illusions about convincing people of anything. I don't think the atheist that spoke with me when I was a missionary had any illusions either.
  • Satanists aside, most people are invested in god being just and merciful. If he's not then what is the point of believing in him? If reality is simply a twisted kids science project then what's the point?
I'll stick with this line reasoning because I think that if people can be reached at all it is through their belief that ultimately god is either a just and logical god or that god doesn't exist. But thanks for the advice.
 
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RandFan said:
Billy, I'm disagreeing with you for one very simple reason. Your position is irrational and it is the kind of irrational thinking that gives way to belief in god.

"God can do whatever he wants. If god wanted to make square circles he could."

I disagree for good reason.

Not if you define god as all just and all merciful. That won't fly.



  • I have no illusions about convincing people of anything. I don't think the atheist that spoke with me when I was a missionary had any illusions either.
  • Satanists aside, most people are invested in god being just and merciful. If he's not then what is the point of believing in him? If reality is simply a twisted kids science project then what's the point?
I'll stick with this line reasoning because I think that if people can be reached at all it is through their belief that ultimately god is either a just and logical god or that god doesn't exist. But thanks for the advice.
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So, basically, you don't believe, if there were a God as we have come to understand him from the bible - all knowing, all seeing, all powerful and the source of everything - that he would be beyond any notions we mortals might have about what is just and and right and moral? Wouldn't you say that is pretty illogical? I notice a slight hint of indignation and contempt in your responses to me and I have to say I have not deserved that. If there were an almighty God wouldn't it be fair to say that opposing his will is pretty irrational position? Suggesting that my "irrational way of thinking" is what leads to the belief in God. Well, no. I would be irrational if I choose to believe in the fairy tales of religion. But I think it is fundamentally irrational to suppose there were an Almighty God and you could be in any way justified to oppose him. That is one of the fundamental lessons of the bible. I wasn't giving you any advice. I was saying that whether or not you view God as capricious or evil is hardly germaine at all to the question of whether or not he exists. You tell me how it makes sense to argue that God is cruel and unjust while at the same time arguing that he doesn't exist. If a God could exist then a God who is cruel and arbitrary from our perspective could also exist. You are bothered by the idea of an inconsistent and arbitrary God. I am no since I know he doesn't exist.
And to repeat myself, a squared circle is a physical impossibility. Being arbitrary and capricious is certainly possible and if there were a God he could certainly be those things. You might not like it, but (as the bible stresses again and again) who are you to judge? If there were a God - an almighty creator who knows all and see all and from which all things come it would pretty ridiculous to suppose we would be in any position to pass judgement on his behavior. But there is no God so this is all academic.
 
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billydkid said:
So, basically, you don't believe, if there were a God as we have come to understand him from the bible - all knowing, all seeing, all powerful and the source of everything - that he would be beyond any notions we mortals might have about what is just and and right and moral? Wouldn't you say that is pretty illogical?
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The concept of god is illogical. Aquinas and Lews notwithsanding. Perfection and other attributes of god are nothing more than human constructs. Conceptual abstracts. What is amazing is that we can conceptualize god in the first place. We can imagine that something can be perfectly just and perfectly merciful but those two concepts are largely exclusive. Just because we can use them together to describe god doesn't mean that such a thing is logically possible (square circles). The best way for me to get people to see the futility of believing such a thing is to hammer home the illogic of the notion.

If there is a god, he or she is not both perfectly just and perfectly merciful with both free will and omnicience. Those are not really theoretically possible.

I notice a slight hint of indignation and contempt in your responses to me and I have to say I have not deserved that. If there were an almighty God wouldn't it be fair to say that opposing his will is pretty irrational position?
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I do that often without even knowing that I do it. It's a flaw in my character that I'm honestly trying to deal with. I'm sincerely sorry.

Suggesting that my "irrational way of thinking" is what leads to the belief in God. Well, no. I would be irrational if I choose to believe in the fairy tales of religion. But I think it is fundamentally irrational to suppose there were an Almighty God and you could be in any way justified to oppose him. That is one of the fundamental lessons of the bible. I wasn't giving you any advice. I was saying that whether or not you view God as capricious or evil is hardly germaine at all to the question of whether or not he exists. You tell me how it makes sense to argue that God is cruel and unjust while at the same time arguing that he doesn't exist. If a God could exist then a God who is cruel and arbitrary from our perspective could also exist. You are bothered by the idea of an inconsistent and arbitrary God. I am no since I know he doesn't exist.
And to repeat myself, a squared circle is a physical impossibility. Being arbitrary and capricious is certainly possible and if there were a God he could certainly be those things. You might not like it, but (as the bible stresses again and again) who are you to judge? If there were a God - an almighty creator who knows all and see all and from which all things come it would pretty ridiculous to suppose we would be in any position to pass judgement on his behavior.
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We will have to disagree. For giggles we could construct a god that meets the criteria you and I set but that has nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian god of the Bible. Those here who don't ascribe the same attributes to god as do Muslims, Jews and Christians are perfectly fine to ignore me. I don't know enough about Hindus and Sikhs.

In any event, IMO, Epicurius really has said all that needs be said. Anything else is simply a rehash.

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?"


But there is no God so this is all academic.
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Of that we can agree.
 
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Elizabeth I said:
Wouldn't it be impossible for God (or anybody) to be both all-just AND merciful? I mean, there are some people that justice just demands they die a lingering and painful death.
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Man's sole purpose is obedience to God.
To try and understand what's going on, you'll find yourself stuck with the basics, like the meaning of simple words like mercy, just....
You get stuck before you've even started!
:):):)
 
Ali said:
Man's sole purpose is obedience to God.
You get stuck before you've even started!
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So don't question. Don't reason. Just believe, and obey.

wtc_9-11.jpg
 
Oliver said:
You could make the same argument about Nazis - with one major difference: They didn't believe in an imaginary god. That's your lack of differentiation when it comes to some obvious pet-religion of yours.

...Just a hint...
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What?
 
Maybe not but cult leaders and frauds like David Icke, Sun Myung Moon and Claude Vorilhon are. Why are there so many cults and cult leaders in the world.
 
RandFan said:
So don't question. Don't reason. Just believe, and obey.
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No-one can teach trigonometry to a monkey, it just doesn't have the ability to understand.
It's the same with many people who try to understand matters of life; first you have to make the first step, which is obedience to God.
:):):)
 
Ali said:
It's the same with many people who try to understand matters of life; first you have to make the first step, which is obedience to God.
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That's right, obedience first then you get the virgins.

terrorist3aw1.jpg
 
RandFan said:
What?
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Well, you said: "So don't question. Don't reason. Just believe, and obey".

The Nazis did the same: "Didn't question. No reason. Just believe, and obey".

Therefore your claim that this is a behavior based on religion is flawed at best.

So while your awakening on 9/11 is quite obvious, your conclusion is flawed if you really think that "So don't question. Don't reason. Just believe, and obey" is a religious thingy... just a hint ...
 
Oliver said:
Therefore your claim that this is a behavior based on religion is flawed at best.
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Where did I make this claim? :)

You kill me dude, you really do. Stick with what I post and not what the voices in your head tell you I claim.

Fair enough?

FWIW, I think it's unwise to be blindly obedient to any fanatic be it religious or secular.
 
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