• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Russia invades Georgia

Nogbad said:
It is hard to fathom what Georgia thought it could achieve by going into S. Ossetia.
Click to expand...

Ask not what Georgia did, but what Saakashvili and his entourage decided to do. They're currently in charge of decisions, and the setting of things in motion according to said decisions.. What they decided to set in motion was something very, very stupid. Bordering (charitably) on the insane.

That said, the Ossetians have a right to self determination and for whatever historical reason they did not want to be part of Georgia.
Click to expand...

The crassness of the Georgian claim to self-determination was revealed on Day One, when they denied the same right Ossetians, Abkhazians, and those guys in the south-west corner that the Turks were too wimpish too protect. (At the time. They may well be having second thoughts now that Saakashvili is huddled in a corner screaming "The Russians Are Coming!")

I think Georgia has to be realistic and accept the reality of the borders as they stand. They are not going to retake these areas by force and the people there are not going to want to rejoin after this little adventure.
Click to expand...

There's not actually any re-take or re-join involved. The people involved never recognised Georgia in the first place; the Georgians are claiming it exists because the Soviets and Turks drew lines on maps.

The issue of Georgian membership of NATO is a minor one ...
Click to expand...

But worth a giggle :). It was never a real prospect, and the reason why has just been laid very bare.
 
egslim said:
.


Let me see: The US got us entangled in an intervention in Afghanistan, where the situation is now deteriorating. The US also brought us the conflict in Iraq, which is a major stability risk in an area vital for its oil supply. With accompanying higher oil prices, and no end in sight either.
Russia stomped on Georgia, where we don't really care about.

It's safe to say that Bush has caused us more problems than Putin has.

That doesn't make me anti-American, but I am anti-American-centric. Big difference.

(Edited to replace "Americanism-centric" with "America-centric")
Click to expand...
Then I guess since the EU got the US involved in Kosovo we are even? Kosovo is now the excuse Russia is using in Georgia. I won't even go into WW2 except that, using your European model, maybe we should have just fought the Japanese since it is they that attacked us.
 
It appears that Ukraine and Poland have stood with Georgia against the brilliant Russians. Both presidents were in the Georgian capitol last night. Yep Putin has this under control.

"Our neighbor thinks it can fight us. We are telling it no," said Polish President Lech Kaczynski, who was joined by the leaders of Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Ukraine at the rally. Kaczynski says Russia wanted a return to "old times.
Click to expand...

I thought all of the former Soviet states would cower in fear as a couple of posters insisted last night.
 
My old creative writing teacher constantly stressed the difference between telling and showing.
 
Texas said:
It appears that Ukraine and Poland have stood with Georgia against the brilliant Russians. Both presidents were in the Georgian capitol last night. Yep Putin has this under control.
Click to expand...

Both countries have about zero power projection capabilities and invadeing russia would be bloodly stupid on their part. No I don't think Putin has anything to worry about in that respect.

I thought all of the former Soviet states would cower in fear as a couple of posters insisted last night.
Click to expand...

If you bothered to read the thread the EU states issue have been covered. Ukraine on the other hand is a more interesting case. Aside from the existing Russain involvement with their internal politics they do have a boarder disspute with russia. They may be hopeing that by sticking with poland and the like they will be able to pull support from the EU but that is a very risky stratergy.
 
geni said:
US could invade cuba but would take a hit in international relations and would likely find the losses in holding the place unacceptable. But yes the US has the militry capacity to capture cuba.
Click to expand...

Never mind, just checked we still have Florida, same thing.
 
CapelDodger said:
Why so? Georgia's been around for less than twenty years and has proved a nightmare from day one. What actual good is it doing anybody? Apart from connected people, I mean.
Click to expand...

What nightmare, a functioning democracy? How about Ukraine, Estonia, even Poland? I'm sure they are also nightmares to Russia but who the hell cares? Putin overplayed his hand and has all of them standing up to him. Maybe he isn't so brilliant after all. His "peacekeepers" in SO will be replaced by NATO or UN troops and his failure to oust the Georgian government for his own puppets has failed.

Turkey has found itself in an uncomfortable position recently. The European option is on permanent hold; ain't gonna happen. US interests in Iraqi Kurdistan limits their options (and perhaps makes them question how much NATO membership is actually worth to them, in practical terms). And there's this new-sprung thing calling itself "Georgia" in territory that used to be Turkish
Click to expand...
.
You have no idea what Turkey is going to do.

This "Georgia" appears to be a wholly-owned subsidiary of an oil-based US Administration. A US that is at its most potent about half-a-planet away. The Russians are guys on the mountains across the valley - on a clear day you can see them, and they can see you.
Click to expand...
This is your entire rationale isn't it? A US/Western ally is an automatic puppet that deserves to be crushed.

So why shouldn't Turkey annexe Georgia, with tacit Russian approval? Harsh words from Washington or New York are only to be expected. No response from the Moslem world, of course, since it would be promoted as a secular military triumph (gifting the Kamalists a poison-pill distraction). A shrug from Europe, less than that from places east.
Click to expand...

Hell why not? You are on a roll. Why stop at Georgia? There are dozens of small states that are of no importance anymore. The UK comes to mind.

So why not? Everybody gains except connected Georgians. Russians could buy the Georgian wine they love so much, Georgians would love to start selling it to them again, everybody wins.
Click to expand...

Unbelievable
 
geni said:
Both countries have about zero power projection capabilities and invadeing russia would be bloodly stupid on their part. No I don't think Putin has anything to worry about in that respect.
Click to expand...
Not militarily BUT Poland and is both a member of NATO and the EU with the president having the courage go and stand beside the Georgians sends a strong message. Just remeber that Poland was the first soviet state to challange Moscow in a meanigful way with Lech Waleska.



If you bothered to read the thread the EU states issue have been covered. Ukraine on the other hand is a more interesting case. Aside from the existing Russain involvement with their internal politics they do have a boarder disspute with russia. They may be hopeing that by sticking with poland and the like they will be able to pull support from the EU but that is a very risky stratergy.
Click to expand...

If it is risky then it means that the EU doesn't have the courage to protect its member states. That is probably a reality.
 
egslim said:
The first problem is that few, if any, NATO countries would really be willing to wage war against Russia to defend Georgia.

.
Click to expand...

No but there are some really strong words coming from unusual places such as Sweden:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_South_Ossetia_War

Swedish Prime minister Fredrik Reinfeldt criticized Russia's attacks on Georgia, calling them "Russian aggressions in violation of international conventions.".[55] Swedish Minister for Foreign Affairs and Chairman of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe Carl Bildt said in a statement: "The way in which the situation in South Ossetia has deteriorated is cause for profound concern. It is extremely important that all those involved show restraint and play their part in bringing about a political solution," ... "I am particularly concerned about the impact of the conflict on civilians. Georgia and Russia are dangerously close to war and there is a great risk of this spreading to other parts of the Caucasus."[56] Bildt further stated that the crisis is due to "provocations from the South Ossetian side" and that the Georgian forces are trying to "restore the constitutional order",[57] and that the Russian bombing of Georgia is "very worrying and will demand a forceful reaction from the United Nations and the European Union." [58] "No state has the right to intervene militarily in the territory of another state simply because there are individuals there with a passport issued by that state or who are nationals of the state. Attempts to apply such a doctrine have plunged Europe into war in the past... And we have reason to remember how Hitler used this very doctrine little more than half a century ago to undermine and attack substantial parts of central Europe," Bildt said in a statement. [59] On August 12 Bildt said in a telephone interview from the Georgian capital Tbilisi that: "Russia's military attacks on Georgia will damage both Moscow's and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's image abroad" ... "Russia will sooner or later have to pay a high price for this," .... "It changes Russia's image, there is no doubt about it," he said, adding that the attacks bore witness to "a strong element of revenge, particularly from Prime Minister Putin."[60]

I realize that you fancy yourself as a master of realpolitik but Russia has miscalculated and is now reduced to its usual bluster but it will withdraw without achieving its objective of overthrowing the Georgian government and intimidation of its former satellites.
 
Texas said:
Not militarily BUT Poland and is both a member of NATO and the EU with the president having the courage go and stand beside the Georgians sends a strong message. Just remeber that Poland was the first soviet state to challange Moscow in a meanigful way with Lech Waleska.
Click to expand...

They can stand where they like they don't have any power projection capabilities. NATO and the EU are not going to back them on this issue. It probably plays well domesticaly but means nothing for Georgia.


If it is risky then it means that the EU doesn't have the courage to protect its member states. That is probably a reality.
Click to expand...

Ukraine is not a memeber of the EU.
 
Texas said:
No but there are some really strong words coming from unusual places such as Sweden:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_South_Ossetia_War
Click to expand...

What was Sweden's opinion on say Iraq?


I realize that you fancy yourself as a master of realpolitik but Russia has miscalculated and is now reduced to its usual bluster but it will withdraw without achieving its objective of overthrowing the Georgian government and
Click to expand...

No evidence that was an objective. If it had been it would have been it could have been done.


intimidation of its former satellites.
Click to expand...

Did you notice the statement from Transnistria?
 
Texas said:
You have no idea what Turkey is going to do.
Click to expand...


Problem is neither does anyone else either. We need Turkey.

This is your entire rationale isn't it? A US/Western ally is an automatic puppet that deserves to be crushed.
Click to expand...

Depends on how smart it is.


Hell why not? You are on a roll. Why stop at Georgia? There are dozens of small states that are of no importance anymore. The UK comes to mind.
Click to expand...


Between 5th and 7th largest economy and has nuclear weapons. Just isn't worth the hastle it would take anyone to remove it.
 
geni said:
They can stand where they like they don't have any power projection capabilities. NATO and the EU are not going to back them on this issue. It probably plays well domesticaly but means nothing for Georgia.




Ukraine is not a memeber of the EU.
Click to expand...

Tell me, why has Russia tucked its tail and run the the UN? I didn't say that Ukraine was an EU member but Estonia is and it was also in the Georgian capitol last night. All of the Baltic states are supporting Georgia, all of the Eastern European states are supporting Georgia the UK, Denmark, Ireland, Canada, the US, Sweden and others are supporting Georgia and condemning Russia. The only countries supporting Russia so far are Cuba, Serbia and Venezuela. Russia is isolated diplomatically and it has now failed in its military objective. I think Putin has been spanked pretty thoroughly.
 
geni said:
No evidence that was an objective. If it had been it would have been it could have been done.

?
Click to expand...

LOL. Is that a fact? So the mighty Russian army just went in to take over an area the size of postage stamp? Hell they already had their "peacekeepers" there. Give me a break.
 
geni said:
What was Sweden's opinion on say Iraq?
Click to expand...
http://www.sida.se/sida/jsp/sida.jsp?d=1299&a=19701&language=en_US

Development cooperation
Since 2003, when a strategy for development cooperation was developed, Sweden has also contributed assistance for reconstruction. The object of this assistance is to promote peaceful development and the growth of a democratic state built on the rule of law and on respect for human rights. Sweden also wishes to contribute to economic growth that will benefit the poor. One important task of development cooperation is to prepare for extensive cooperation between Sweden and Iraq, not least considering the large group of Iraqis who currently live in Sweden. More than 70,000 Iraqis came to Sweden as refugees to escape the Saddam Hussein regime in the 1980s and 1990s. This Iraqi diaspora plays an important role in areas such as Swedish support to Iraqi civil society organisations.

Sida carefully evaluates each decision regarding interventions. The security situation is a crucial factor regarding the possibility of supporting reconstruction. At the same time, each intervention is also assessed as a possible source of conflict, so that Swedish support will not contribute to regional, religious or ethnic divisive
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom