Rejection

[stilicho]

Of course we all reject magic and religion. They aren't scientific and employ the methods of charlatans.

So we also reject all ideas that cannot bear scrutiny.

We have no national identity because patriotism and nationalism are simply mystical concepts that have no basis in empiricism. We also reject the political philosophies of communism and democracy because they cannot survive under the knife.

What's left? It could or would be nihilism--the rejection of everything--but that would be untruthful because science has determined that things do exist.

Is it any wonder that scepticism is foundering among the waves of faith-based concepts such as a dedication to one's social units? Whether familial, national or transnational, faith-based alliances have worked to defeat scepticism throughout history. Religion has merely been replaced by other faith-based systems and we're all rather happy about it.

Aren't we?

PS: Please respond only if you can prove decisively that you have no faith-based allegiance to any social unit.

 

[Moochie]

Does allegiance to a kitty count?


M.


ETA: My allegiance isn't faith based.

 

[Scottch]

All hail kitty!!!!

 

[Hokulele]

Since when did nationalism become strictly faith-based? There are no practical or pragmatic reasons to support a social unit? Game theory is bunk?

What the heck is the point of this OP?

 

[gentlehorse]

... we're all rather happy about it.

Aren't we?

PS: Please respond only if you can prove decisively that you have no faith-based allegiance to any social unit.

You bet I'm happy!

I am free. I have no honor, no dignity, no family, no home, no country, but only life to be lived.

No, wait a minute... I'm confusing don Juan Matus with myself again.

Dang.

Sorry for the interruption-- Carry on.

 

[Gregory]

PS: Please respond only if you can prove decisively that you have no faith-based allegiance to any social unit.

You haven't bothered to "prove decisively" that patriotism is "faith-based." You haven't proven decisively (either) that loyalty to familial units is "faith-based."

Proven decisively, hell. You haven't bothered to provide the smallest scrap of evidence for it. Why don't you do that before making demands of others.

 

[JoeEllison]

How about you back up your assertions before challenging others?

 

[six7s]

Of course we all reject magic and religion. They aren't scientific and employ the methods of charlatans.

So we also reject all ideas that cannot bear scrutiny.

I suspect that you might get more agreement (i.e. more than none whatsover) if you were to say:

So, many of us strive to identify and then reject ideas that cannot bear scrutiny

Is it any wonder that scepticism is foundering among the waves of faith-based concepts

Foundering Says who?
<aside>I think that foundering (as in fundamental, basis, base, bottom) usually implies under waves</aside>

faith-based concepts such as a dedication to one's social units?

Assuming that you think (believe?) that this is both accurate and relevant, please explain what you mean... perhaps contrasting 'whatever-it-is-your-on-about' with some 'non-faith-based concepts'

PS: Please respond only if you can prove decisively that you have no faith-based allegiance to any social unit.

You might get more responses if you first explain what you mean by and then demonstrate how 'you can prove decisively that you have no faith-based allegiance(s) to any social unit.'

 

[Frozenwolf150]

Uh, I'm not sure I follow the OP but--

Humans are social animals, because there is strength in numbers and survival in cooperation. Our families take care of us from birth to increase the chance we will survive long enough to make it in the world. Within a society we cooperate with and help each other for much the same reasons.

 

[stilicho]

Since when did nationalism become strictly faith-based? There are no practical or pragmatic reasons to support a social unit? Game theory is bunk?

What the heck is the point of this OP?

Nationalism is faith-based. I am the scion of immigrants who, themselves, are the spawn of immigrants. In each case they lost the faith in their previous social units and now religiously adhere to that of our new homeland.

As to whether there are practical or pragmatic reasons to support a social unit, I can only assume you are referring to a church, mosque or synagogue.

And, no, there are not. Like imaginary links to family, village, municipality or state, religious adherence is false and unsupportable to a sceptic.

 

[six7s]

In each case they lost the faith in their previous social units and now religiously adhere to that of our new homeland

Please describe the characteristics of the adherence that make you think its appropriate to use the word 'religiously'

 

[stilicho]

You haven't bothered to "prove decisively" that patriotism is "faith-based." You haven't proven decisively (either) that loyalty to familial units is "faith-based."

Proven decisively, hell. You haven't bothered to provide the smallest scrap of evidence for it. Why don't you do that before making demands of others.

So, in your humble opinion, patriotism is not based on faith. What is it based on then?

Describe concisely how patriotism affects one any differently than religion might.

You also mention loyalty. Thanks. I forgot about that one. Why is loyalty to any social unit not under intense scrutiny? A truly reasonable and independent human would merely adhere to the best available arrangement and not necessarily the social unit into which he/she was born.

It is simply unscientific to suggest that the bonds formed at birth ought to be continued once one becomes self-aware. To continue an arrangement otherwise is simply to become faithful rather than to accept reason.

 

[stilicho]

Please describe the characteristics of the adherence that make you think its appropriate to use the word 'religiously'

I was employing irony.

Do you know what that is?

 

[gdnp]

We have no national identity because patriotism and nationalism are simply mystical concepts that have no basis in empiricism. We also reject the political philosophies of communism and democracy because they cannot survive under the knife.

Please add democracy to the concepts I am not willing to reject. As has been often pointed out, it is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

 

[stilicho]

Uh, I'm not sure I follow the OP but--

Humans are social animals, because there is strength in numbers and survival in cooperation. Our families take care of us from birth to increase the chance we will survive long enough to make it in the world. Within a society we cooperate with and help each other for much the same reasons.

In other words, helpless in the face of faith-based systems.

I am not so sure I am that dramatically pessimistic as you are. I think people are capable of freeing themselves from both religion and so-called natural bonds.

Families, villages, religion and states are profoundly antithetical to a regime of pure reason. Mysticism has often been used by political philosophers to encourage stability where no other means exist. No different than what Sumerian mystics did so long ago.

We really haven't changed that much.

 

[Hokulele]

Nationalism is faith-based. I am the scion of immigrants who, themselves, are the spawn of immigrants. In each case they lost the faith in their previous social units and now religiously adhere to that of our new homeland.

In most cases, immigration is financially motived rather than a simple "lack of faith". Many immigrants retain both social and historical ties to their mother/father lands.

As to whether there are practical or pragmatic reasons to support a social unit, I can only assume you are referring to a church, mosque or synagogue.

Umm, no. I am primarily talking about a village/community level. My reasons are practical and pragmatic in that I know damn well I cannot provide nor repair/maintain everything I want and own. By establishing community relationships, I can negotiate to get what I want, whether through barter or other means. Negotiations work less well with people I do not have a relationship with. You could say my sense of community is greed based rather than faith based.

And, no, there are not. Like imaginary links to family, village, municipality or state, religious adherence is false and unsupportable to a sceptic.

Religion plays no active role in my life.

 

[Tricky]

In most cases, immigration is financially motived rather than a simple "lack of faith". Many immigrants retain both social and historical ties to their mother/father lands.




Umm, no. I am primarily talking about a village/community level. My reasons are practical and pragmatic in that I know damn well I cannot provide nor repair/maintain everything I want and own. By establishing community relationships, I can negotiate to get what I want, whether through barter or other means. Negotiations work less well with people I do not have a relationship with. You could say my sense of community is greed based rather than faith based.




Religion plays no active role in my life.

I'll vouch for this. Hokulele's dedication to a local football team led to the temporary loss of her identifying symbols. Okay, maybe that was faith-based.

 

[stilicho]

Religion plays no active role in my life.

Mine either.

But what has replaced it is the same thing that it's replaced in yours.

Why have we humans retained faith in abstracts such as families, municipalities and states? That's pretty mystical. A reasoning human being has the privilege of rejecting all such nonsense.

By our definition, we remain haplessly religious, confined by a description that doesn't bear close scrutiny.

 

[stilicho]

...football team...

Saskatchewan Roughriders.

Faith-based fandom.

 

[Hokulele]

Why have we humans retained faith in abstracts such as families, municipalities and states? That's pretty mystical. A reasoning human being has the privilege of rejecting all such nonsense.

By our definition, we remain haplessly religious, confined by a description that doesn't bear close scrutiny.

Please explain why you find reliance on family, municipalities, and states to be mystical because I just don't see it that way. Is it due to the fact that a family, community, or nation can fail one or more of its members?