Is music therapy woo?

[CaptainManacles]

Here are some examples of Music Therapy courses in the UK where they are usually postgraduate and recognised as health professionals by the NHS

http://www.qmu.ac.uk/courses/PGCourse.cfm?c_id=189

http://www.anglia.ac.uk/ruskin/en/home/prospectus/pgft2008/music_therapy.html

http://www.rwcmd.ac.uk/postgraduate_courses/music_therapy.aspx

http://courses.uwe.ac.uk/b99942/2008

From the looks of it, music therapy done by properly qualified people is no more or less woo than most other areas of therapy.

Again, since when does having classes or being recognized by the NHS show the credibility of a field? And if they're usually post-graduate that means they are often under-graduate, in a degree that is half just music classes. It's like giving a music teacher a minor in psychology and sending her off to cure autism.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Again, since when does having classes or being recognized by the NHS show the credibility of a field? And if they're usually post-graduate that means they are often under-graduate, in a degree that is half just music classes. It's like giving a music teacher a minor in psychology and sending her off to cure autism.

I only said "usually postgraduate" because I was only able to find masters courses, but obviously couldn't rule out that the existence of undergraduate courses without a more exhaustive search. I don't believe anything other than postgraduate courses are recognised by the NHS.

You seem to be ignoring the Cochrane reviews I posted which stated that the research was encouraging with regards to autism (tho no legitimate music therapist would claim to cure it) and positive with regards to schizophrenia. The field obviously lacks a decent amount of good quality research and there are people who are making claims for it (some other form of music therapy I believe) which are completely out of what it might do, but that doesn't mean the whole field is woo.

I can't comment on the content of the courses other than the outline I posted as I haven't done the course, but on the face of it, it doesn't seem too dissimilar to many other forms of therapy (and there are probably some with even less claim to efficacy).

 

[CaptainManacles]

I only said "usually postgraduate" because I was only able to find masters courses, but obviously couldn't rule out that the existence of undergraduate courses without a more exhaustive search. I don't believe anything other than postgraduate courses are recognised by the NHS.

Well, I know for a fact you can be certified in music therapy with a bachelors in the US. And what the NHS does and does not recognize is hardly meaningful anymore.

You seem to be ignoring the Cochrane reviews I posted which stated that the research was encouraging with regards to autism

No, I didn't ignore the post where you said it was limited to 3 small studies with limited applicability.

and positive with regards to schizophrenia.

Since you didn't post that, no, I didn't ignore it.

The field obviously lacks a decent amount of good quality research and there are people who are making claims for it (some other form of music therapy I believe) which are completely out of what it might do, but that doesn't mean the whole field is woo.

No evidence to support it, little training required, falsified conclusions from studies, tends to point more to woo then legitimacy.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I did post the schizophrenia one - 3rd reference down. From the abstract:

Music therapy as an addition to standard care helps people with schizophrenia to improve their global state and may also improve mental state and functioning if a sufficient number of music therapy sessions are provided. Further research should address the dose-effect relationship and the long-term effects of music therapy.

I'll admit it is not definitive evidence, but it indicates that it might have a valid application in this area.

 

[paximperium]

No evidence to support it, little training required, falsified conclusions from studies, tends to point more to woo then legitimacy.

This entire statement is patently false and you know it. Did you do so consciously or are you blinded by your pre-judgement?
1)There is evidence to support it. See Cochrane Review. Data is poor but that is early evidence. I await more data before making judgments.
2)A BSc. in Music Therapy from decent schools is "little training required"? Please define "enough training." Is it a Masters? What about a PhD.? Please do tell.
3)Falsified conclusions from studies? Please present these falsified studies you are claiming.

You have clearly already judged Music Therapy.

 

[juryjone]

The woo is out there. I have a friend who was not reacting well to his blood-pressure medicine. So he went to a naturopath who "prescribed" music therapy. I wrote him an email suggesting that he look into it more about a month ago, and have not heard from him at all since then.

I have not heard whether the music therapist is "licensed" - obviously it doesn't seem to matter to my friend - but regulating blood pressure is far beyond the uses outlined in the Cochrane review.

 

[Perpetual Seeker]

I have no idea. My university has a music therapy major in its music school, and I even know a few who are taking the major. By in large, it is seen as a joke major.

I can see how music might help for relaxation, but that's as far as I would take it.

 

[autumn1971]

I believe all of us are talking about different things.

Music and Art Therapy as used by the medical field involves trained therapists, some with actual degrees, to help with treatment and diagnosis of patients. It is mostly used in psychiatric and some physical rehabilitation cases.

What you are talking about is something claiming to be Music Therapy. Its similar to Homeopathy claiming to be medicine.

So it's like psychiatry claiming to be scientific?

 

[paximperium]

So it's like psychiatry claiming to be scientific?

Psychiatry is scientific.

 

[CaptainManacles]

I did post the schizophrenia one - 3rd reference down. From the abstract:

I'll admit it is not definitive evidence, but it indicates that it might have a valid application in this area.

Oh yes, the one where you said

results generally inconclusive due to few studies, small samples, methodological problems etc

Which is vastly different from what you claimed you posted.

 

[CaptainManacles]

There is evidence to support it. See Cochrane Review. Data is poor but that is early evidence. I await more data before making judgments.

They have poor data for every woo field. The studies that I have looked at the data is more then just "poor" it is non-existent.

A BSc. in Music Therapy from decent schools is "little training required"?

What makes you think it has to be from a decent school? And yes, it is little training required, I've already presented my reasons why, I'm not going to go over them again just because you like ignoring reality.

Falsified conclusions from studies? Please present these falsified studies you are claiming.

Falsified conclusions aren't the same as falsified studies. They are out there if you care to find them, you obviously don't, I don't really feel the need to spend the time to convince someone who obviously won't be and has made up his mind already.

You have clearly already judged Music Therapy.

Pot kettle black

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Oh yes, the one where you said



Which is vastly different from what you claimed you posted.

That was my summary of the 4 cochrane reviews I posted. I assumed anyone interested would actually have at least read the abstracts of each of them before commenting on them. For the record, 2 showed no evidence for use, 1 showed encouraging evidence (autism) and one was clearly positive (schizophrenia). But all were based on few, pretty small studies, so a lot of further work would need to be done before there is anything more definitive.

Not enough to say it is definitely effective, but enough to do further work and not dismiss the whole field (done properly by well qualified people) as total woo.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Falsified conclusions aren't the same as falsified studies. They are out there if you care to find them, you obviously don't, I don't really feel the need to spend the time to convince someone who obviously won't be and has made up his mind already.

At least point us to the falsified conclusions to studiesyou have found. I would be very interested in reading them.

 

[CaptainManacles]

Kim, S. J. (2005). The Effects of Music on Pain Perception of Stroke Patients During Upper Extremity Joint Exercises. Journal of Music Therapy. 42(1) 81-92.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

And what were the conclusions and how were they "falsified"? I only have access to the abstract. It looks like no significant effect on pain measures were found, but there was some expression of positive affect in video analysis. i would have to see how the video was analysed and what their conclusions on this actually were before i would count it as falsified; which is a very strange word to use about conclusions rather than results - I would tend to say they reached unjustified conclusions. And even so, unless you show that this is common in the field, it doesn't really reflect on the field as a whole, just those particular researchers themselves.

 

[Jeff Corey]

A couple of months ago I read Oliver Sacks' Musicophelia. He's a clinical psychologist...

Sachs is a M.D. (Oxford) and Professor of Clinical Neurology and Clinical Psychiatry at Columbia.

 

[paximperium]

They have poor data for every woo field. The studies that I have looked at the data is more then just "poor" it is non-existent.

Oh? What studies are those? Please do tell, I'm suppose to take your word for it?

What makes you think it has to be from a decent school? And yes, it is little training required, I've already presented my reasons why, I'm not going to go over them again just because you like ignoring reality.

No you haven't presented anything at all, just your dogma and insinuations...in other words, crap.

So here are a few small insignificant not "decent" schools:
University of Alabama
Arizona State University
Cal State Northridge
Colorado State University
Florida State University
University of Miami
University of Georgia
University of Iowa
University of Kansas
Michigan State University
University of Minnesota
New York University
Drexel University
Temple University
West Texas A&M University

Hey, granted many programs are in pretty crappy schools but that doesn't support your claim now does it?

Falsified conclusions aren't the same as falsified studies.

Snort...please point out in the paper your provided what is false?

They are out there if you care to find them, you obviously don't, I don't really feel the need to spend the time to convince someone who obviously won't be and has made up his mind already.

What a cop out. You made some gradiouse claim and now run away chickening out when called to provide evidence.

I don't have the inclination to do your homework.

Pot kettle black

I've already stated that I have doubts into the validity of Music Therapy but your dogmatic belief is blinding you to your own position. I have not accepted Music Therapy as valid and am open to new evidence that will change my mind one direction or the other. In fact I'm leaning towards the irrelevance of Music Therapy.

You have wholeheartedly rejected it and called it fraudulent. Since you made an active claim, you have to prove it.

PS: Isn't it interesting that you piss off and alienate people who are actually on your side? You are almost as good as CFLarsen at this, I wonder how effective your arguments are against believers.

 

[paximperium]

The Effects of Music on Pain Perception of Stroke Patients during Upper Extremity Joint Exercises

Soo Ji Kim, MME, MT-BC1 and Iljoo Koh, MME, MT-BC2
1. University of Kansas, 2. Private Practice, Seoul, Korea

The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of music therapy on pain perception of stroke patients during upper extremity joint exercises.

Ten stroke patients (1 male and 9 females) ranging in age from 61 to 73 participated in the study. Music conditions used in the study consisted of: (a) song, (b) karaoke accompaniment (same music to condition A except singers' voices), and (c) no music. Exercise movements in this study included hand, wrist, and shoulder joints. During the 8-week period music therapy sessions, subjects repeated 3 conditions according to the randomized orders and subjects rated their perceived pain on a scale immediately after each condition.

The General Linear Model (GLM) Repeated Measures ANOVA revealed that there were no significant differences in pain rating across the three music conditions. However, positive affects and verbal responses, while performing upper extremity exercises with both music and karaoke accompaniment music, were observed using video observations.

Man, karaoke for therapy, sweet.

Let me see. They basically concluded that music therapy does not work for pain BUT Physical Therapy does work...amazingly "fraudulent" isn't it.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

And now that I look at it, that study isn't even a study of music therapy per se. It is a study of the effects of listening to music on pain perception when added to physical exercise. This is not music therapy as practiced in the UK - and is not the sort of music therapy that was evaluated in the cochrane reviews I linked to. As i have read about it, it seems to be applied primarily to people with communication difficulties through learning disability, brain damage, stroke,mental health problems etc and it is about participation in music usually using an improvisation model (Nordoff Robbins approach).

 

[paximperium]

And now that I look at it, that study isn't even a study of music therapy per se. It is a study of the effects of listening to music on pain perception when added to physical exercise. This is not music therapy as practiced in the UK - and is not the sort of music therapy that was evaluated in the cochrane reviews I linked to. As i have read about it, it seems to be applied primarily to people with communication difficulties through learning disability, brain damage, stroke,mental health problems etc and it is about participation in music usually using an improvisation model (Nordoff Robbins approach).

Well, it would really nice to actually have the paper.

I don't know what impairment these patient's had.
Was it purely verbal, motor, sensory or perhaps cognition?
Would they even be able to grade using a pain scale?
What are their baseline and AODL?
How exactly did they perform their statistical calculations?

Well with 10 patients, this pilot study has only as much applicability as...a pilot study, nothing more or less. I really doubt they powered the study for an actual end result and this is more a case series than an actual pilot.

I see this all the time with papers done by people with little to no clinical research background.