Another Shooting, Close to Home

[Drudgewire]

That's unnecessary, but it brings up an interesting further question: do you hold the right to own a firearm equal to the right to liberty / habeas corpus?

Yes.

 

[volatile]

Can we get back on track and actually talk about this particular shooting? I live in the area so I am more interested in talking about this event. There are a million other threads where we can listen to Volatile crap on America, if not at least one other thread specific to gun ownership rights in the U.S.

I'm sorry if you think productive and polite discussion is "crapping on America", but I understand you wanting to get back on topic. Let me assure you my intent is not to crap on America. America's cool. Just a little gung-ho for my liking.

So, yes. Let's get back on track. How do you propose we do that? I figured a discussion about the best way to stop people shooting at firemen was the most interesting topic of discussion arising from this event (it certainly was the first question that came to my mind), though perhaps you have some other avenues of discussion in mind?

 

[Minadin]

Can we get back on track and actually talk about this particular shooting? I live in the area so I am more interested in talking about this event. There are a million other threads where we can listen to Volatile crap on America, if not at least one other thread specific to gun ownership rights in the U.S.

Well, I walked by the place last night. There are still cops all over the place, and there was also a reporter from KMOX radio who we talked to for a little bit (off the air) and a camera crew from Channel 4. The police who were there were K-9 units and their job seemed to be to not let people onto the block, which was closed, unless they actually lived on the block. It was very very hot when I went down there at about 7pm local time. There were a bunch of neighborhood folks milling about and I met some people I hadn't before, which was nice. The police officers were chatting with neighborhood kids mostly. There's not much of a view of the house from Sutton and Zephyr.

We learned from the police and the reporters that they had not found the guy (or his body) yet - but that it was because they had not gone in to looked. The fire department and / or whoever makes those sorts of decisions had decided to wait until today to go looking for his remains, because they were worried about structural collapse of the house, which was reported to be not much more than a brick wall now. Apparently, a couple of trees had fallen over, whether on it or simply nearby, I'm not sure. On neighbor said that the older gentleman (52-ish i think) who was the suspect, was known to be a bit of a loner and apparently had a habit of telling girls around the neighborhood that he was a registered sex offender, although this is apparently not the case. Another neighbor said that he had put fiberglass insulation batting over his attic windows, which they thought odd.

Later that evening, at around 11pm or so, I decided to walk up to the 7-11 to get some beer, and it was cooler outside and starting to look stormy. I went down my street and turned Big Bend, from at which point you actually do get a tremendous view of the devestation this fire has caused. (and the highway construction style spotlight the police had on scene didn't hurt, either) It's the 3rd house down on the south side of Zephyr just to the east of Big Bend - almost right across from the 7-11. It's completely gutted. It looks like the houses on either side also sustained a fair amount of damage but it didn't look like anything unrepairable.

I talked to the 7-11 attendant for a bit and she said that she had been scared to come into work, and that they had actually been closed all day except as a cooling off spot / headquarters for the police on the scene. I guess that makes sense since all the area streets were closed and no one could get there anyway. Originally it had been reported that the suspect had robbed the 7-11 before lighting the truck on fire, but it turns out that it had just been one of the cashiers there who originally spotted the fire and dialled 9-1-1. I hope he doesn't feel responsible for the death that resulted from that phone call - someone else would have called sooner or later and the fire brigade would have shown up eventually.

 

[volatile]

Yes.

Remember how I said you were weird? You're totally weird.

Think about the philosophical consequences of that position (that owning lethal weapons and not being locked up by the government for no reason are equally important rights), and get back to me....

 

[Charles Livingston]

I'm sorry if you think productive and polite discussion is "crapping on America", but I understand you wanting to get back on topic. Let me assure you my intent is not to crap on America. America's cool. Just a little gung-ho for my liking.

So, yes. Let's get back on track. How do you propose we do that? I figured a discussion about the best way to stop people shooting at firemen was the most interesting topic of discussion arising from this event (it certainly was the first question that came to my mind), though perhaps you have some other avenues of discussion in mind?

I dont mean to sound malicious Volatile. You are all over the social board criticizing a variety of things about America, so it is hard not to perceive a pretty big bias there. Regardless, I didnt mean to be impolite (and I clearly was IMO). For whatever bias you do or dont have, you are very polite/civil and I do value the content of your posts.

As for how to get back on track, Minadin posted what I was looking for.

 

[Charles Livingston]

Well, I walked by the place last night. There are still cops all over the place, and there was also a reporter from KMOX radio who we talked to for a little bit (off the air) and a camera crew from Channel 4. The police who were there were K-9 units and their job seemed to be to not let people onto the block, which was closed, unless they actually lived on the block. It was very very hot when I went down there at about 7pm local time. There were a bunch of neighborhood folks milling about and I met some people I hadn't before, which was nice. The police officers were chatting with neighborhood kids mostly. There's not much of a view of the house from Sutton and Zephyr.

We learned from the police and the reporters that they had not found the guy (or his body) yet - but that it was because they had not gone in to looked. The fire department and / or whoever makes those sorts of decisions had decided to wait until today to go looking for his remains, because they were worried about structural collapse of the house, which was reported to be not much more than a brick wall now. Apparently, a couple of trees had fallen over, whether on it or simply nearby, I'm not sure. On neighbor said that the older gentleman (52-ish i think) who was the suspect, was known to be a bit of a loner and apparently had a habit of telling girls around the neighborhood that he was a registered sex offender, although this is apparently not the case. Another neighbor said that he had put fiberglass insulation batting over his attic windows, which they thought odd.

Later that evening, at around 11pm or so, I decided to walk up to the 7-11 to get some beer, and it was cooler outside and starting to look stormy. I went down my street and turned Big Bend, from at which point you actually do get a tremendous view of the devestation this fire has caused. (and the highway construction style spotlight the police had on scene didn't hurt, either) It's the 3rd house down on the south side of Zephyr just to the east of Big Bend - almost right across from the 7-11. It's completely gutted. It looks like the houses on either side also sustained a fair amount of damage but it didn't look like anything unrepairable.

I talked to the 7-11 attendant for a bit and she said that she had been scared to come into work, and that they had actually been closed all day except as a cooling off spot / headquarters for the police on the scene. I guess that makes sense since all the area streets were closed and no one could get there anyway. Originally it had been reported that the suspect had robbed the 7-11 before lighting the truck on fire, but it turns out that it had just been one of the cashiers there who originally spotted the fire and dialled 9-1-1. I hope he doesn't feel responsible for the death that resulted from that phone call - someone else would have called sooner or later and the fire brigade would have shown up eventually.

It looks like they have now found his body in the house. I think they didnt want to release that info until they had identified the body.

 

[Minadin]

I heard some lady (caller) on the radio last night (KMOX late night show) say that she had "heard on TV" - (also known as just made up as her own fantasy) - that the guy might have slipped out and run off to hide in the woods. The problem with this theory is that there really aren't any woods . . . anywhere . . . near . . . at all.



I know Maplewood's not a huge civic center or a major attraction in the area but it's becoming apparent that there are a lot of people who have no idea where it is, at all. The KSDK story placed my town 8 miles west of the city. It might be 8 miles from downtown but it actually does border the city of St. Louis. One person who was posting on another site was rather astounded to find out that it was south and east of Clayton. He had been referring to it as "west county".

So, at least if they have found his corpse it can put some of the wilder and more uninformed speculation to rest.

Tonight there is a prayer vigil in Jr. High Park for the fireman who died, and tomorrow before the concert (6-8pm, Dog Town All Stars) there will be a moment of silence. I will probably skip the praying but head out to the concert to meet with my neighbors and honor the memory of the young man. Also, I happen to know several of my friends will be bringing beer and food to go along with the music.

 

[Drudgewire]

Remember how I said you were weird? You're totally weird.

Think about the philosophical consequences of that position (that owning lethal weapons and not being locked up by the government for no reason are equally important rights), and get back to me....

"Philosophy was always a very interesting subject. The word philosophy comes from philo, meaning "wild, mind blowing to think about," and sophy, meaning "until you grow up a little more and realize it's a dumb waste of time."
-Doc Evil (SomethingAwful.com)

And it must be the weirdness in me, because I don't see any great philosophical divide between the two concepts. I don't want a goverrnment that can lock me up for no reason, and I don't want a government who tries to take my guns.

And a government who follows the second part helps me sleep just a hair better in thinking they'll be less likely to (or capable of) try pulling that first part on their citizenry.

 

[ServiceSoon]

Nope.

You've heard that saying about sticks and stones, right?

I think a ban on firearms would reduce murders in the USA around 10%; at the expense of freedom and the risk of growing government tyranny. The other 90% want firearms and will either make them, buy them, etc. According to the US Department of Justice, the majority of firearms used in non justifiable homicides are acquired through straw purchases.

This saying has little truth and has been filed as a cliche in my brain. The majority of violence starts as speech.

Guns. Oh, and murderous killing rampages against firemen (to get this back on topic). Sounds like a fair trade-off to me.

I am glad to see you are coming around.

Well, yes. Truth in jest. So what you're advocating is rule by violence, essentially, and you're explicitly suggesting that moves not even be attempted to change the situation because of the threats of a violent, armed minority. If a case can be made that convinces the majority of citizens in the US that handguns should not be owned by private citizens, as the case was made elsewhere in the world, would a civil war, in your opinion, be justified, or would be just be inevitable?

Right now it is the majority that wants access to firearms. There is a lot more money pouring from the gun rights side than the anti side. Surprisingly to me, the majority of the money on the anti side is one or two people who claim to be philanthropists.

Rule by violence is how the government works. Eh? Might as well give the peasants the same benefit that the government has. Checks and balances are the best system we have now.

At this point in my life, adhering to your scenario, a civil war would be justified IMO. Majority rule isn't always the best. I guess it is your opinion that civil liberties can be taken away if it protects society as a whole?

BTW: Have you ever seen this before?

http://www.nraila.org/images/Sendagun.GIF

 

[luchog]

It doesn't matter how often it happens or in what circumstances, the usual suspects will post away about how this has nothing at all to do with easy access to firearms.

Because we all know this sort of thing is only possible with firearms. It wouldn't have been possible to simply toss a home-made pipebomb in the place and blow everyone to bits. Everyone knows psychos like Timothy McVeigh, Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris, Ted Kaczynski, Lucas Helder, and so on, only use firearms, they're incapable of using bombs to kill lots of people... oh, wait....

 

[luchog]

And don't you think that's a situation that needs urgent and immediate remedy?

Of course it does. Just tell us where to find the magic wand to make it all go away, and we'll happily use it.

I know in the UK gun crime is increasing but the fact of the matter is if average Joe wanted to get hold of a hand gun he'd have virtually no chance.

Quite a number of organizations, including your own government says differently. In fact, the ease of purchasing illegal weapons in the UK is rapidly increasing, due to in large part to smuggling by drug gangs (from Irish terrorists and Eastern Europe); as well as converted non-firing replicas.
http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/crime/one-in-five-men-has-illegal-gun-knowledge-$1132587.htm

Research published today says that five million adults would know how to go about obtaining a gun illegally, while one in eight say they know someone who owns an illegal firearm.

According to accompanying statistics from Policy Exchange, which commissioned the report, the number of deaths and injuries from gun crime has increased by more than 400 per cent over the last seven years.

In 1998/99 there were 864 reported deaths and injuries in gun-related incidents, compared to the 3,821 reported in 2005/06.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/dec/15/ukcrime.ukguns

Sawn-off shotguns are still the weapon of choice for the more serious armed criminal and can now be bought illegally for between £50 and £200, according to Home Office research.

Police forces have estimated that there are roughly 3 million illegal firearms in the country.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6054264.stm

"As well as that you have the changes in the EU frontier regulations which means it has never been easier to import illegal weapons into the UK and what is really sad that that very few illegal weapons are intercepted."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/dec/09/ukcrime.ukguns
http://www.dvc.org.uk/dunblane/times1.html
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hors298.pdf

 

[Ranb]

*sigh* Don't you see any irony in that position whatsoever? The VT guy wouldn't have been able to kill anyone if he hadn't been able to buy guns so easily!

So you are saying that if he had to put lots of effort into obtaining his guns then the shootings would not have happened? Easy or not, he was determined and planned his attack. I'm not sure, but if he had to wait longer to get the guns by other means, he may have received the mental health treatment he needed and not killed those people. But then again, he may have gone on with his plans even if he was not able to buy guns legally.

He did not kill because he had a gun, he killed because he had a disturbed and violent mind.

Ranb

 

[Kestrel]

Because we all know this sort of thing is only possible with firearms. It wouldn't have been possible to simply toss a home-made pipebomb in the place and blow everyone to bits. Everyone knows psychos like Timothy McVeigh, Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris, Ted Kaczynski, Lucas Helder, and so on, only use firearms, they're incapable of using bombs to kill lots of people... oh, wait....

Harris and Klebold didn't manage to kill anyone with bombs. They didn't have the skills needed to be effective bomb makers.

 

[Piggy]

What's so unattainable (if we're talking practically and not legally or ideologically, of course) about closing down gun shops, organising a buy-back and/or amnesty and imposing severe penalties should people be found in possession of proscribed weapons?

Are you serious?

Do you have any comprehension of the scope of what you're talking about?

And how in the world do you propose that the legal question can be separated from practicality?

The US Constitution is not some piece of philosophical fluff that can be ignored. It's the highest law of the land -- a land of some 300 million people spanning an entire continent.

There is no way on God's green earth that you're going to just shut down the gun shops, outlaw guns, take them away from people, and start locking folks up for having them.

That's fantasyland.

 

[Piggy]

In all seriousness, do you honestly think there would be a concerted effort by gun owners to override the will of the democratic government of the United States, were such a decision (able to be) taken?

Yes. There is no doubt in my mind that this would happen. Gun owners would not stand for it.

 

[Piggy]

That's unnecessary, but it brings up an interesting further question: do you hold the right to own a firearm equal to the right to liberty / habeas corpus?

No.

You can have a civil society with personal liberty without the right to keep and bear arms.

You cannot have a civil society with personal liberty anywhere in the world without the right to challenge your imprisonment.

 

[Piggy]

He did not kill because he had a gun, he killed because he had a disturbed and violent mind.

Let's be fair. He killed because he had both.

Guns are impersonal and easy.

As has already been mentioned, the Columbine killers' bombs didn't work. It's trickier stuff than pointing and squeezing.

Would he have gone on his rampage without the firearms, if he'd had to devise and deploy explosives or grapple with his victims with a knife?

Maybe. But probably not.

 

[Ranb]

Let's be fair. He killed because he had both.

The main point I am trying to make is that is does not matter if a person puts great effort into obtaining a gun or little effort. The person either has the gun or does not have it.

It is possible that the killings at VA Tech still would have happened if there were no guns involved on the part of the killer. Considering the ease by which a person can kill others, it is likely he could have only been stopped if someone had taken action before he entered the campus. Take a look at murders by arson for example, usually no guns involved.

Ranb

 

[Piggy]

The main point I am trying to make is that is does not matter if a person puts great effort into obtaining a gun or little effort. The person either has the gun or does not have it.

It is possible that the killings at VA Tech still would have happened if there were no guns involved on the part of the killer. Considering the ease by which a person can kill others, it is likely he could have only been stopped if someone had taken action before he entered the campus. Take a look at murders by arson for example, usually no guns involved.

Ranb

Oh, I agree. And of course, not all multiple murderers use firearms -- not by a long shot. A few names come to mind... Speck, Bundy, Gacey, Fish, Corll, Ridgeway, Rader.

I'm just saying that, in that case, it was probably the intersection of bad brain and easy means.

Same with Andrew Golden and Mitchell Johnson. I find it hard to believe that they would have attempted to blow up their school or to go on a stabbing rampage.

Of course, that doesn't mean that there are easy solutions, unfortunately.

 

[Mobyseven]

Yes. They very definitely would. Elected officials will never rise to the level of trust we have in the Constitution.

It must be said that the level of trust placed in the United States constitution by the citizens of the country is, in a word, frightening. The worship of a document written by white men who lived a number of centuries ago is a horrifying thing to witness from the outside - indeed, a comparison to the worship of the bible seems more than apt here. It is a document with some good ideas and some bad, taken out of its time and placed into ours.

You place your trust in a broken constitution.