Is God evil?

[Complexity]

The Christian God isn't evil at all.

Your silly 'god' exists only in your imagination.

Grow up and quit inflicting this crap on the rest of us.

 

[edge]

Archeology evidence of Sodom and Gomorra
10 Now the Valley of Siddim was full of tar pits, and when the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, some of the men fell into them and the rest fled to the hills.
So now we know where the pitch came from.
Silentknight says:

Wrong. You couldn't have picked a worse example to make your point. God killed all the men, women, children, and animals, for the sake of punishing a gang of angel rapers. For the record, they weren't gay, they were rapists. You might get away with conflating rape with homosexuality on religious apologetics sites, but you won't get away with it here.

God does this again and again, ordering his followers to destroy everything that moves, including children and babies, in order to punish those people for crimes that were likely invented post hoc, and many of which applied to the Israelites as well. Are you unaware of the fact that in times of war, it's common practice to demonize your enemies and render them sub-human, as justification for committing genocide against them?

It doesn’t say anything about a war.
They were gay and rapists and it states it that is what they were up to.
4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house.
5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

This isn’t the only reason they were wicked in other ways.

So lets see an army does this?
10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here,
13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."
23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land.

24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.

25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.

I don’t know of an army back then that could do this? Shouldn’t it have said we if you were right?
But it doesn’t.

The city of Numeira, as we conjectured, possibly Sodom, is the better preserved of the two excavated sites. Numeira shows signs of two devastations. The latter was the catastrophic fiery event that utterly destroyed the city. An earlier event shows less sign of such a catastrophe, but rather more like the result of a war. Dr. Bryant G. Wood, an expert in Syrio-Palestine archaeology, formerly of the University of Toronto, has examined the two layers of destruction. He concluded that the two events probably occurred a little more than 20 years apart. [10] His estimation is in line with the Talmud's time frame of 26 years.

http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/Biblical_Archeology_Sodom_and_Gomorrah.asp

Preponderance of Evidence
To summarize, the archaeology evidence as to the destruction of the five Cities of the Plain is inconclusive. However the preponderance of other evidence with regards to the Torah's story of Sodom and Gomorrah is overwhelming.
1. The Bible refers to a metropolis of five cities in the Dead Sea area.
Five, and only five cities, have been found in the Dead Sea area.
2. The Bible refers to a conquest by the Mesopotamians.
The artifacts found in the Dead Sea area show a Mesopotamian influence.
3. The Midrash describes the metropolis as a thriving population.
The enormous number of burials in the large cemeteries attests to a great population.
4. The Talmud and the Midrash describe the area as an agricultural
wonderland. The great diversity of agricultural products found in the ruins verify the lush produce enjoyed by the area's inhabitants.
5. According to the Talmud, there was a span of only 26 years between a war in the area and the ultimate destruction.
Devastation levels found in Numeira (Sodom) are consistent with the Talmud's assertion.
6. The Talmud states that Sodom, unlike other cities in the area, only existed for 52 years.
The ruins in Numeira (Sodom) indicate that the city lasted less than 100 years.
7. The Bible attributes the destruction of the cities to a fiery storm that rained down from above.
Thick layers of burnt material covering the remains of the cities in the area bear this out.
After reviewing all of the archaeological data, it is quite clear that the story related in the Torah and Midrash is completely accurate in spite of what the non-believers may boldly claim.

http://www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/arch5.htm


Interesting theory:
http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/10/evidence-of-asteroid-impact-for-sodom-and-gomorrah/


“Brimstone” The Tangible Evidence
When Ron Wyatt found these sites during the 1980’s, he knew they were the lost cities. But there had to be conclusive evidence to convince others. The Bible states “…the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire form the LORD out of heaven.” (Gen 19:24). Throughout the sites Ron identified, he found the remnants of that “rain.” Balls of almost pure sulphur, not in a crystalline form, as would be expected if they had formed naturally but in the form of pressed-powder. This is the Biblical brimstone. These ‘death balls’ are embedded throughout the ashes, like berries in a muffin,. Surrounding each one is a shell of vitrified ash. It appears that as these burning balls of brimstone fell from the sky with the “fire from the Lord”, everything was consumed. And as it burned, after a while, molten material surrounding the sulfur cut it off from the flame, preserving it within the ashes.
Chemical analysis of the brimstone shows it to be a mixture which would generate extremely high temperatures at a rapid but steady burn rate. X-ray fluorescence analysis on a sample revealed the composition to be 98.4% sulphur, combined with 0.22% magnesium. The results are clearly seen at the sites – everything in the cities has been totally incinerated, reduced to nothing but stark, sterile ashes. Similar balls of sulphur have been found at four sites and although numerous geologists have been consulted, no other examples of similar naturally occurring sulphur balls are found anywhere on earth that even remotely resembles the form found at these sites.
An obvious question is how could these ashen remains still exist after 3,900 years? Substances burned with sulphur have a remaining ash that is actually heavier than the original material. Erosion has occurred and some areas are better preserved than others, the best being just below Masada. The remains are solid and they are heavy. However, when a chunk of this ash is broken off and crushed, it disintegrates like talcum powder. The Bible tells also of the divine “fire from the LORD out of heaven” which accompanied the brimstone. How it all happened, we don’t know for sure. But we are sure of the result – the remains of these ancient cities are exactly as the Bible states, “…turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes…” 2 Peter 2:6.
http://www.catholicintl.com/catholicissues/distimes.htm

 

[Frozenwolf150]

There's a reason I separated those arguments into two different paragraphs, and that's because they were addressing two different points. The latter argument addressed something you have already been wrong about in previous threads on theodicy. The former referred specifically to Sodom and Gomorrah, which by the way, were "punished" for reasons that had nothing to do with homosexuality. Jesus believed it was because they were hostile and inhospitable towards visitors in the city, which is exactly what the story says. Again, rape is not homosexuality.

Besides, Lot wasn't a paragon of virtue himself. Consider that he offered up his two virgin daughters to be raped instead. Later on, his daughters get him drunk and take turns raping HIM until they're both pregnant. What an upstanding guy God chooses to save from the destruction of the city.

 

[edge]

Lot wasn't a paragon of virtue himself

I would drink if I seen all that and it then wasn't his sin it was his daughters read the rest.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You are quietly drifting away from your original unsupported statement, stilicho. If you want to discuss something beyond, Is God Evil?, then we need a new thread. But if you never admit your original statement was unsupportable that monotheism was the basis of progress to the scientific process, don't expect me to join the discussion. Addressing moving goalposts waste too much time.

 

[RobRoy]

Addressing moving goalposts waste too much time.

Shouldn't it be attacking moving goalposts, or attempting to score, or some other metaphoric image? Addressing just sounds like you're trying to orate, while two guys in white shuffle the goal posts back and forward and the crowd goes wild at odd times.

Or perhaps I have too active an imagination.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Archeology evidence of Sodom and Gomorra......

http://www.aish.com/societyWork/scie...d_Gomorrah.asp

Preponderance of Evidence
To summarize, the archaeology evidence as to the destruction of the five Cities of the Plain is inconclusive. However the preponderance of other evidence with regards to the Torah's story of Sodom and Gomorrah is overwhelming......

How it all happened, we don’t know for sure. But we are sure of the result – the remains of these ancient cities are exactly as the Bible states, “…turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes…” 2 Peter 2:6....

'Evidence' the story of Lot is true.



Finding archaeological sites that might correspond to Eden, Jericho, or Sodom & Gomorrah is not evidence for the Biblical myths even if the locations could be the location of the stories. It's like claiming that since pillars of salt actually exist, it is evidence the story of Lot's wife is true. It might be evidence, but the conclusion is an absurd stretch of what the evidence actually supports.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Shouldn't it be attacking moving goalposts, or attempting to score, or some other metaphoric image? Addressing just sounds like you're trying to orate, while two guys in white shuffle the goal posts back and forward and the crowd goes wild at odd times.

Or perhaps I have too active an imagination.

What Did The Goal Posts Ever Do To You?


Perhaps "challenging moving goalposts" might be a compromise. I was trying to avoid overly aggressive words.

 

[randomprophet]

Finding archaeological sites that might correspond to Eden, Jericho, or Sodom & Gomorrah is not evidence for the Biblical myths even if the locations could be the location of the stories. It's like claiming that since pillars of salt actually exist, it is evidence the story of Lot's wife is true. It might be evidence, but the conclusion is an absurd stretch of what the evidence actually supports.

Well put! This whole account of the burning of Sodom and Gormorrah could be grounded in historical fact but ancient man could have used this event (or others similar to it) as the inspired basis for a story or myth.

 

[edge]

Well put! This whole account of the burning of Sodom and Gormorrah could be grounded in historical fact

Well you got that part right, almost.
The existences of the five cities were thought to be myth.
It is grounded in historical fact, how is it not?

Then there's this and other historical facts: Jericho_Neolithic_tower
The list goes on...

 

[RobRoy]

Perhaps "challenging moving goalposts" might be a compromise. I was trying to avoid overly aggressive words.

Much better. Mixed-metaphors are fun, but sometimes it's more interesting to keep them straight.

Well put! This whole account of the burning of Sodom and Gormorrah could be grounded in historical fact but ancient man could have used this event (or others similar to it) as the inspired basis for a story or myth.

Indeed. Not that I want to enter this debate again, but the pressence of historic cities where Biblical stories are set is not evidence of the truth of those stories. Otherwise we could believe that the Greek gods actually participated in the Trojan War as described by Homer. By the finding of a potential site for Troy, should we now believe that Aphrodite saved Paris from Menelaus? That's a silly stretch.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well you got that part right, almost.
The existences of the five cities were thought to be myth.
It is grounded in historical fact, how is it not?

Then there's this and other historical facts: Jericho_Neolithic_tower
The list goes on...

A city existed. There is evidence a city was destroyed by an earthquake. Maybe there is evidence of fires that occurred at the time of the earthquake. There are salt pillars around the Dead Sea.

You want to use that to say there is evidence of angels and gods and people turning to salt? I think not.

 

[edge]

A city existed. There is evidence a city was destroyed by an earthquake. Maybe there is evidence of fires that occurred at the time of the earthquake. There are salt pillars around the Dead Sea.

You want to use that to say there is evidence of angels and gods and people turning to salt? I think not.

The existences of the five cities and others were thought to be myth.
The rest has to be taken on faith, but the myth of the very existence of the cities isn't part of that myth anymore.

 

[Gate2501]

The existences of the five cities and others were thought to be myth.
The rest has to be taken on faith, but the myth of the very existence of the cities isn't part of that myth anymore.

I think that the point here is:

If I create a mythos in which my god *the one and only god* destroyed a city in South America, and scientists stumble across the ruins of an ancient city in South America, this is NOT evidence that my god exists.

If it IS evidence or proof that said mythos is true, then I am now stating that the *real god* came to me last night and told me that a loooooong time ago this dude in Africa was carrying a clay pot and he TOTALLY made him drop it with divine powers.

So you know... Any clay pots that you might find around that neck of the woods (all of Africa) will validate my claims. I'll accept your conversion to my new fabulous religion when this happens.

 

[RandFan]

If both god and evil exist then the god of the Old testemant was evil.

"...a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully". --Dawkins

 

[Elizabeth I]

The Biblical god is evil and disgusting. I am especially appalled at the treatment of women in the text.

Some examples

If this isn't evil despicable crap, then the word, evil is meaningless.

You know, in my opinion all the garbage about "menstrual uncleanliness" and isolation during the time of bleeding after childbirth just reinforces the point of view that the Bible, especially the OT, is nothing more than a classical origin myth. All you have to do is to look at the number of tribal societies that have or have had similar beliefs, prescriptions and proscriptions about menstruation and the vagina.

Certainly the depiction of women is no worse than it is in Hellenistic mythology, where Medusa, the Sirens, the Furies, and almost all of the women in the Iliad/Odyssey are inimical at best and outright horrid at worst.

However, millions of people haven't used Hellenistic mythology to justify the subordination of women and the destruction of entire societies. You can't make the same claim for Biblical mythology.

...polytheistic societies tended to fail in BCE times.

Gosh, how do you explain the relative longevity of the ancient Greek and Roman societies, then?

Reuful-sounding, maybe, but dealt against reuful people.

What in the name of literacy is reuful?

The male and female genders in terms of sexual reprodective abilities are clearly formed for each other. Two of the same gender lying together is unnatural, shown by the shape of the sexual organs as they simply don't "fit"

Are you saying that a penis and an anus, or a penis and a mouth, don't "fit"? And don't say that anuses and mouths are not sexual organs. A penis is also an excretory organ. Kissing is generally considered to be an important element of sex.

and shown also by the fact that it is impossible to reproduce through homosexuality

So two sterile heterosexual people should not be allowed to marry? Because they can't reproduce.

which is like paedophilia, of which there is an increasing rate in the gay population

Prove it. In fact, studies show that most pedophiles are heterosexual.

You wouldn't likely be able to ascend to the position of quaestor by being a "citizen" of Lugdunum.

And yet the Emperor Trajan was born in what is now Spain.

If we're debating about whether God is evil, we must assume, first, that God is real. If we assume God is real, then we make the same assumption about his actions, including dying for our sins, healing the sick etc.

Nope, God could be as real as a rock falling on your head, and yet the whole story of the birth to a virgin, the crucifixion and the resurrection as mythological as Orpheus and Eurydice. God's existence would not automatically authenticate the Bible. Only the existence of the God specified in the Bible would do that.

I'll give you an example of the kind of thing that site does:

In the Bible God might say something like: "I have heard the cries of the persecuted that rent the skies from this particular city; I have heard those who moan in agony as they are violated by the sexually immoral; the blood of the murdered ones cries out to me, and all of this pain and tyranny can no longer be ignored: now I will rise from my Throne, and now I will answer them; the evildoers can no longer be forgiven, but they will be delivered to destruction, and those who were crushed I will save from the hand of the wicked."

The site you mentioned takes an example like this, tears out all of what God says until a specific verse is left (eg. God destroyed this particular city) and then says "Look everyone! God destroyed this city because there were a few men there who were gay! He's obviously an evil tyrant!" leaving out the fact that the said gay men were rapists.

But the man that God specifically chose to save from this wicked evil city offered his daughters up to those same rapists. This has been pointed out by other posters and you have consistently failed to address it.

The whites, on the other hand, had none of these things; no miracles, no prophet, no confirmation of God's will in any degree: however much some may have claimed to, historically, they did *not*. Instead, they had their own arrogance, and thus went against God's will and had no right to take black slaves.

They believed in the Bible. Doesn't the Bible describe miracles and wonders? Isn't it filled with the words of the prophets? So they had the same "proof" of these things that you do and that the ancient Hebrews did. If modern slave owners took God at his word that what they were doing was hunky-dory, how can you criticize them?

I never said everyone did it, therefore it's right. I'm saying what the Jews did was right as opposed to what the other nations did, which was wrong. Although there are instances in Biblical history in which sexual relations occure to continue a man's family line, there is no verse saying that a woman was forced to lie with a man by God's law, but we do have verses regarding God's law that condemn rape. From this we can grasp that women had rights too.

His chosen boy, Lot, pimped his own daughters to rapists.

The flood had to do with this. It wasn't just people disobeying God, Angels had come down and slept with women, producing Nephelim, who were corruptions of man. They were wiped out during the flood. There were also Giants after the flood, corruptions of humanity, who were evil in Gods sight so he asked his people to destroy them.

Aren't angels messengers from God? So weren't the women who slept with them doing God's will?

Should we line up Hakeem Olajuwon, Yao Ming, Tim Duncan and other seven-foot giants and shoot them?

The rest of your post is just crazy talk.

Well you got that part right, almost.
The existences of the five cities were thought to be myth.
It is grounded in historical fact, how is it not?

Then there's this and other historical facts: Jericho_Neolithic_tower
The list goes on...

Classical Greece existed. In fact, the country of Greece is still right there. All hail Zeus!

The Cretan civilization existed. Archaeological evidence of the Labyrinth has been found. But, strangest thing, nobody, as far as I know, is looking for the bones of the Minotaur.

Classical Rome existed. In fact, the city of Rome still exists. Amazing that two babies raised by wolves could have grown up to found such an amazing place. And while we're at it, all hail Jupiter!

 

[RandFan]

...homosexuality, which is like paedophilia, of which there is an increasing rate in the gay population...

Actually, the evidence does not seem to support your position. Do you have any evidence for your claim?

Gay Men and Child Molestation: Myth or Fact?

There is no legitimate scientific research connecting homosexuality and pedophilia. Sexual orientation is defined as an adult attraction to other adults. Pedophilia is defined as an adult sexual attraction or perversion to children. In a study of 269 cases of child sex abuse, only two offenders where found to be gay or lesbian.

More relevant was the finding that of the cases involving molestation of a boy by a man as seventy-four percent of the men were or had been in a heterosexual relationship with the boys mother or another female relative.

The conclusion was found that "a child's risk of being molested by his or her relatives' heterosexual partner is over one hundred times greater than by someone who might be identifiable as being homosexual."

Adoption expert, Carrie Craft cites the Child Welfare Information Gateway (previously National Adoption Information Clearinghouse) as stating, "A child's risk of being molested by his or her relatives' heterosexual partner is over one hundred times greater than by someone who might be identifiable as being homosexual." The study also found that of 269 cases of child sex abuse, only two offenders where found to be gay or lesbian. The American Psychological Association agrees, "Another myth about homosexuality is the mistaken belief that gay men have more of a tendency than heterosexual men to sexually molest children. There is no evidence to suggest that homosexuals molest children."

 

[Frozenwolf150]

Sorry RandFan and Elizabeth I, but I think Relic stopped posting on this forum after his back and forth with me. I think I scared him off or something. It's too bad too, because I was hoping he'd use this line again:

Your excuses don't suffice.

But I should have known that fundies usually turn into broken records after their vinyl gets scratched a few times. You can tell the quality of their content just by looking at the album cover.

 

[RandFan]

You can tell the quality of their content just by looking at the album cover.

Gives a new meaning to "Let the little children come to me..."

 

[Elizabeth I]

Sorry RandFan and Elizabeth I, but I think Relic stopped posting on this forum after his back and forth with me. I think I scared him off or something. It's too bad too, because I was hoping he'd use this line again:



But I should have known that fundies usually turn into broken records after their vinyl gets scratched a few times. You can tell the quality of their content just by looking at the album cover.

[qimg]http://www.cenedella.com/images/album7e.jpg[/qimg]

Gives a new meaning to "Let the little children come to me..."

...and might go a long way toward explaining recent developments in the Catholic church...