AA77 FDR Data, Explained

[beachnut]

Beachnut,

Havent you learned internet readers/lurkers skip convoluted and sophism type posts?

I agree, the best posters at JREF are rational humans and they can say what I mean to say so much better, even if they are laypeople when it comes to flying and engineering. What can I say, seems like I did better in math, than verbal.

Bottom line Beachnut.... (second time asked)

Can you answer these questions? Or will you avoid them.

I will avoid them.

1. Have you registered for P4T?

I told you some of the those you said had not registered at p4t have. So you are still wrong. But then it is none of your business, or is it? Are you the NSA?

If you havent, why not?

Who needs to post at a place where lack of knowledge is praised, and reality is ignored? Why do you register at a place where hearsay beats real evidence? Can’t answer that can you?

2. Have you ever emailed P4T for debate? If not, why not?

Why would I email p4t to debate. They have no evidenced or ideas to debate. Ss p4t have no theories, that mean no conclusions. Do you even read the p4t web pages?

“We do not offer theory” From p4t web site, oops

Have you listened to p4t debate? The fearless leader, Balsamo, does not have a working knowledge of basic flying. Examples: In one interview Balsamo was schooled on the frequency spectrum used by the Radar Altimeter (By the moderator). At his own web forum Balsamo did not know how many feet were in a nautical mile. Balsamo has also threatened the lives of others, how does that fit in with his failed ideas? Balsoma has posted erroneous math and physics with no base in reality, and still has it posted; is he unable to use the work posted here to correct his errors and remove his lies? How do you debate with people who have no base in reality? It is like arguing with Bigfoot or UFO groupies. The one thing p4t have that Bigfoot believers are missing is lots of scat.

3. Why did you back down and instead remained behind your screen typing for pages during AAR debate when the host of Hardfire said -

Quote:
What can I say? The people here who are qualified to discuss the subject should step up to the plate. There is no satisfactory reason for missing this opportunity to address a fairly large audience. - Ron "pomeroo" Weick

It turned out the failed ideas of p4t were presented and Ron did a great job exposing they as liars and fools. Ron has gained knowledge and had a lot of knowledge, and is great at showing p4t lacks evidence. Good work Ron.

I'll add to this questioning by saying,

If the NTSB data is "missing seconds" as you claim, have you contacted the NTSB to correct their information they say they want "as accurate as possible when providiing data through the FOIA"?

The FDR is missing data, it is easy to see, the NTSB had not done anything wrong. They are not the people investigating the crime. The NTSB does accidents, the FBI does crime, p4t do fiction. Easy stuff to figure out. Why are you unable to gain knowledge to see p4t are false information experts.

Have you contacted L3? At all? If not, why not?

What does L3 have that I need to understand 9/11? You seem to like the expert salesman whose evidence does not support your false ideas.

Why do you refuse to place your name, face, credentials, background, experience on your claims? (such as the FDR losing power at 0.2 G's)

I already have. Looks like you missed the rest of the story.

Do you know more than the NTSB, or a 'salesman' at L3 who sells the product to fleets worldwide?

The USAF taught me. So your salesman supports your fantasy of 77 not hitting the Pentagon? Can you answer that?

Why do you hide here and never registered for P4T and refused to debate such "wacko's, loons, dolts" on air? Surely you can expose them in short order?

There are no wackos, dolts and loons at p4t, just wacko ideas, doltish claims, and loony conclusions made by those who suck up the false information and regurgitate lies.

Why is P4T more confident in their material/aeronautical knowledge than you?

p4t, are not confident, they are wrong. 11.2 G and holding! Good job.

(by the way, Rob Balsamo gave 'Pinch' his personal phone number for debate, and/or hammer out details for debate with other pilots in our .org if he so inclined. Pinch hasnt called)

So? Have you seen the stuff Rob puts out? The DVDs are so full of stupid ideas. Study up, even someone who believes in p4t information can gain knowledge and recover from terminal stupidity on 9/11.

Answer the questions Beachnut as they will only be repeated till you do. (but im sure i'll be warned for spam perhaps?)

Go ahead ask again why you missed the FDRs that are missing data.

 

[T.A.M.]

What i find "interesting" 'T.A.M', is that you spent your days and nights behind your screen attempting to assassinate character for those who speak out with their real name and faces on patriotsquestion911, while you yourself remain anonymous.

Care to post the link? I cant yet.. and dont really feel like looking for it (yet..)

ETA: (And they wonder why more arent 'speaking out', little do you know, you help us more than you harm. The people you have to worry about are the ones working behind the scenes)

Thats ok, let me do it for you. Consider it an act of charity, given your "movement" is all but dead...it needs all the "help" it can get.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94638

Maybe you'll turn out to be our "WorstNightmare" over here, eh hx?

TAM

 

[Turbofan]

The altimeter in the final frames of the NTSB working copy animation is from PA, with the altimeter setting at 2992. It is showing PA. This explains why you think the altimeter is showing lower, it is not, with the proper correction, the altimeter is displaying the actual altitude (MSL), plus or minus 75 feet. [/FONT][/COLOR]

You call yourself a pilot?

Below 18,000 feet in the animation, the altimeter is not set to local pressure!


The plane is therefore higher than what is indicated in the animation.

How does this happen if the data files show the local pressure was set upon
descent?

Foul play?

Anyone who has watched the NTSB animation knows you are wrong about this Beachnut.

 

[hxstamper]

I will avoid them.

Nuff said. Readers can make up their own minds. Thank you "Beachnut".

 

[hxstamper]

Thats ok, let me do it for you. Consider it an act of charity, given your "movement" is all but dead...it needs all the "help" it can get.

forums*randi*org/showthread.php?t=94638

Thank you "T.A.M.". Perhaps one day you'll actually get a list of experts who put their faces and names behind their claims so some anonymous internet persona can drag out their skeletons.

Maybe you'll turn out to be our "WorstNightmare" over here, eh hx?

TAM

Im thinking more on the lines of "Armageddon".

(disclaimer: its a play on words for those too literal)

 

[T.A.M.]

I didn't drag out anything that wasn't already available PUBLICLY online. I know none of them personally. If I made some connections, or brought to this forum some information on them that you feel is insulting to them, blame the person who made such information PUBLIC to start.

Personally, my biggest issue with that site, is not those who are full blown Woo...good for them. I may think they are nuts, but at least they are posted where they should be.

My biggest issue with Mr. Miller's site is his listing of people who do not believe the Woo, but made some comment, somewhere, sometime, that reveals they have some doubts, perhaps only minor, with the official story. He then lists them under grandiose, and to most misleading headings.

For instance, Placing General Wesley Clarke in the same listings as some of the Woo loons is not only insulting to General Clarke (Who I doubt even knows he is on such a list), but is completely misleading to the average reader.

Anyway, I am sure you see it differently.

TAM

 

[beachnut]

Nuff said. Readers can make up their own minds. Thank you "Beachnut".

Oops. Good you can't erase my answers, after my smart remark.

I like David James post, he understands p4t, and explains it very well. I guess you will ignore him as you do the evidence proving p4t are making up false information to sell DVD to gullible people. Are you one of those gullible people?

You sound like Balsamo when you say behind the screen crap and the other junk ideas you spew freely. Are you Rob trying again to post with rational people, or are you just an anonymous p4t supporter who lacks basic knowledge to see p4t have no evidence to support false implications. Notice p4t have "no theories". Read the web site for more.

Are you hiding behind your screen without evidence?


What percent of pilots in the world support p4t? Less than 1 percent. Good job.

 

[Turbofan]

What percent of pilots in the world support p4t? Less than 1 percent. Good job.

What percentage of pilots support JREF? Do you have a list like Patriots Question 911?

What is your point? We have more backing us than this forum.

Has anyone here talked to L3 Comm? Nope.

Where do you get your facts from? Theories...yes, that's right.

Guess what Beachnut, you are wrong about the pressure altitude in the
NTSB animation. So what are you doing calling everyone else frauds
when you can't even follow a video! LMAO!

 

[hxstamper]

There are no wackos, dolts and loons at P4T

I missed the above initially since i stopped reading at "i will avoid [the questions]". I would like to address the above quote.

Although the above is a lie, and i, or perhaps any real 'critical thinker' here willing to sift through 'beachnuts' 7800 + posts may find, i had to get the above on record, so much so, i may put it in my sig .

Thanks "Beachnut"! But may i remind you, at least we put our real names on our claims, and actually contact the NTSB, FBI and L3, which you refuse.


"Beachnut", if you were a real pilot, you would know that anyone who puts themselves in a tin tube 35,000 feet above the ground, accelerating themselves to more than 500 mph, is nuts, wacko, and a loon. The people sitting in the back, are more crazy, considering you think "FDR's arent that accurate".

Have a great night old timer...

(disclaimer: "old timer" not an insult, rather a term of endearment)

 

[beachnut]

You call yourself a pilot?

Below 18,000 feet in the animation, the altimeter is not set to local pressure!


The plane is therefore higher than what is indicated in the animation.

How does this happen if the data files show the local pressure was set upon
descent?

Foul play?

Anyone who has watched the NTSB animation knows you are wrong about this Beachnut.

Yes, I am a pilot. I explained the working copy of the NTSB animation. I was an instructor pilot in the USAF, I may be typing too fast for you to understand.

World, the NTSB did an animation for the FBI, the FBI is lead on 77 impact since it was discovered with just basic investigator skills even Jacques Clouseau has, that 77 was a terrorist act when it impacted the Pentagon on 9/11.

The animation starts at Dulles airport and the altimeter is corrected for local altimeter, and the display on the animation is 300 feet for an actual altitude of 288 feet. Not bad, but no where in the FDR is 300 feet stored! They had to correct "manually" the altitude with information to come up with 300 feet. Why? This is something you may not understand until you become a pilot; when will that be?

When the animation ends the final altitude is 170 feet, directly from the FDR information, no correction made. This get confusing when you first see the data, and have not figure out the FDR stores the PA only. I doubt you will understand this attempt at explaining the working copy of the NTSB animation. If you look at the FDR data frame 9:36:11, 4688 PA, and 341.7 mag heading, you will see in the working copy animation, 13:36:11, a mag heading of 342 (oh so close to 341.7) and in the altimeter 4686 (oops, almost 4688). The working copy animation did not apply the correction on the last part below 18,000 feet.

Why not explain what I got wrong? The working copy animation ends when the data stops. There is data missing since 77 is still at 173 feet PA. See at take off the PA was 44 but the real altitude was exactly 288, and calculated to be 300 feet on the NTSB animation, to show what the pilots would see. But on the final let down, the NTSB working copy has no correction applied as I showed by the data being the same in the animation and the FDR on the let down from 18,000 feet, unlike the refined data on the initial take off. Oh my?

In the animation the PA is listed on the altimeter it says 180, very close to the value of PA stored in the FDR of 173. And as you can see the animation shows 77 on a mag heading of 70 degrees, which is 61.2 degree true track, yet the animation working copy Pentagon stick figure is place and rotated in error, and the Pentagon is aligned wrong. The working copy of the NTSB has driven the NoC flight path that does not exist. There is no data in the FDR that aligns the ground with the plane to a resolution better than 2000 to 4000 feet. How ever the heading is almost perfect! You have failed to understand how to interpret the FDR information because you have no knowledge on the subject. I doubt you understand variation is the culprit for placing the stick figure of the Pentagon wrong, and the data form the FDR is used directly to display altitude. So the final altitude is displayed in PA, setting of the altimeter is 2992, and the final mag heading is 70 degrees, but the Pentagon is placed wrong, it is turned CCW in error about 18 degrees. Twice the amount of magnetic variation.

I bet you still fail to understand this will not stop 77 from hitting the Pentagon. 6 years too late to change what really happen. The funny thing is, you need none of this crap to fly your plane into the Pentagon.


Summary; The NTSB used the flight data recorded information to show what the plane did. The aircraft animation proceeds relative to the ground. The NTSB finished the first part of the animation by placing 77 animation exactly by hand on the runway for takeoff, and they applied the altimeter setting to the data to display the actual value the pilots would see in the instrument, if they set the proper altimeter setting. But the last part of the animation a correction was not added to the FDR PA, and you see pure PA for the last half of the animation. This is a fact! In addition the NTSB did not place the Pentagon under the animated plane properly. The airport and the Pentagon have to be placed manually, there is not data to do this with precision in the FDR. FACTS!

There is nothing strange about the animation or the FDR, if you understand flying and have some knowledge in few other fields. Most JREF posters are able to understand this, most p4t posters are not. FACT

 

[beachnut]

I missed the above initially since i stopped reading at "i will avoid [the questions]". I would like to address the above quote.

Although the above is a lie, and i, or perhaps any real 'critical thinker' here willing to sift through 'beachnuts' 7800 + posts may find, i had to get the above on record, so much so, i may put it in my sig .

Thanks "Beachnut"! But may i remind you, at least we put our real names on our claims, and actually contact the NTSB, FBI and L3, which you refuse.


"Beachnut", if you were a real pilot, you would know that anyone who puts themselves in a tin tube 35,000 feet above the ground, accelerating themselves to more than 500 mph, is nuts, wacko, and a loon. The people sitting in the back, are more crazy, considering you think "FDR's arent that accurate".

Have a great night old timer...

(disclaimer: "old timer" not an insult, rather a term of endearment)

Good night Rob Balsamo, or p4t parrot person (based on your lack of posting evidence to support your position and only harassing people for not joining p4t forum to boost the count and fool others into thinking p4t may have something more than false information). Term of endearment, for sure. Rob only wants to record people so he can do what you do, quote people out of context and without further information. Go ahead quote the smart remarks and tell everyone, "see", just like Rob. Cool, you are like the failed 11.2 expert running the false information DVD web site sales to gullible people. Great job.

I notice your real name, after all your hype, has to be hxstamper! Hi hxstamper. Real name? Or what?

hxstamper, did you parents have a choice on the name, or is it a standard name in the Matrix?

p4t harass the NTSB, FBI, and have a salesman as an expert from L3. Good job. Do you read the harassment mail Rob sends to the FBI and NTSB? He implies they are in on some cover-up. Good job p4t. Great stuff, where is the Pulitzer Prize Rob? Where is a theory rob?

Just like rob.

 

[hxstamper]

Yes, I am a pilot. I explained the working copy of the NTSB animation.

The NTSB explains in their cover letter their goal is to "provide the most complete and accurate information as possible".

The NTSB in this same letter explains that their animation was a "working copy" and they note the error in the clock annotation (EDT/GMT). Why doesnt the NTSB note the errors you claim Beachnut? Such as missing seconds, rotated map, altimeter lag.. et al? Do you know more than the NTSB? And if so, when did you contact the NTSB to let them know they are distributing error filled data through the FOIA (as did P4T)?

Have you seen this cover letter from the NTSB? Or do you want to avoid this question as well.


I would post a link to this letter, but im sure its here (cant post links yet, and dont feel like it now, maybe later). "Duhbunkers" like to avoid such detail however. Perhaps that is why you refuse to contact the NTSB to tell them they are providing error filled data to the American Public through FOIA? Perhaps thats why you refuse to register for P4T? Perhaps that is why you Beachnut, and Anti-Sophist offer nothing but sophism under an anonymous screename?


Beachnut... readers can read... your supporters will not change (read: not grow)

Although, i see many are waning.

Beachnut, anytime you want a recorded debate with real professionals who can be verified at faa.gov... email us. Can you find the website? Or do you need us to provide the contact info. Let me know.

 

[OldTigerCub]

unusual to have someone "lurk" for as long as you clearly have hxstamper, and not post until now. Yet when you do it is with such venom, such clarity for past details in terms of what others have posted in the past.

Interesting...

TAM

Hmmmm......I smell socks.

 

[hxstamper]

Good night Rob Balsamo, ]

Same same same from you Beachnut. How many "Rob's" are actually here? Everyone who challenges you is "Rob". Geeze.

Every post you make is "DVD" (yet P4T presentations are on the web for free), "11.2 G's" yet P4T, the page you link to, says they're working on it and demonstrated 3D details...

You constantly use "junk", Wacko' , 'loons', 'dolts', 'failure'... etc etc.

Beachnut.. you give debunkers a bad name. You refuse to step up to the plate except from the protection of the JREF.


It is clear who is more confident and who is desperate. You spend almost everyday talking about P4T. How much time to they spend talking about you?

I'd say it, but i'd probaby get banned.

 

[hxstamper]

Hmmmm......I smell socks.

arent accusations of socks against JREF rules? Or is that only warn material for "troofers".


Where is that mod warn button?

 

[beachnut]

The NTSB explains in their cover letter their goal is to "provide the most complete and accurate information as possible".

The NTSB in this same letter explains that their animation was a "working copy" and they note the error in the clock annotation (EDT/GMT). Why doesnt the NTSB note the errors you claim Beachnut? Such as missing seconds, rotated map, altimeter lag.. et al? Do you know more than the NTSB? And if so, when did you contact the NTSB to let them know they are distributing error filled data through the FOIA (as did P4T)?

Have you seen this cover letter from the NTSB? Or do you want to avoid this question as well.


I would post a link to this letter, but im sure its here (cant post links yet, and dont feel like it now, maybe later). "Duhbunkers" like to avoid such detail however. Perhaps that is why you refuse to contact the NTSB to tell them they are providing error filled data to the American Public through FOIA? Perhaps thats why you refuse to register for P4T? Perhaps that is why you Beachnut, and Anti-Sophist offer nothing but sophism under an anonymous screename?


Beachnut... readers can read... your supporters will not change (read: not grow)

Although, i see many are waning.

Beachnut, anytime you want a recorded debate with real professionals who can be verified at faa.gov... email us. Can you find the website? Or do you need us to provide the contact info. Let me know.

NTSB animation was a working copy. It consist of informational from the FDR. The ground was placed without direct reference to FDR information because the position information is only accurate to 2000 to 4000 feet. Why do you have a problem with facts? These are facts which do not change the outcome of 9/11, or reflect on anything strange about the animation, FDR, or their relationship to the events of 9/11. There is no evidence in the FDR to support your failed ideas, what ever they may be. p4t have failed to make a point, you have failed to bring evidence. What is new?

If you notice, the rest have already posted non support to p4t, except for a few truthers who lack evidence and knowledge on the topic. Your ideas are not founded in reality.

Why would someone what to call p4t who have crazy ideas on 9/11? Who calls Bigfoot people for interviews to tell them they have no scat? At least you guys have lots of scat on 9/11. You and p4t are a fringe group, people usually do not make fun of you guys, cause Rob has a short fuse and threatens to kill people. Why call him and give him a chance to so what you already have, post and repeat quotes out of context and purely for your own ends. You have already proven you have learned how to post quotes and tell everyone, "see"! Good for you. You are a perfect p4t follower.

I have already been verified at faa.gov, sorry

 

[beachnut]

Same same same from you Beachnut. How many "Rob's" are actually here? Everyone who challenges you is "Rob". Geeze.

Every post you make is "DVD" (yet P4T presentations are on the web for free), "11.2 G's" yet P4T, the page you link to, says they're working on it and demonstrated 3D details...

You constantly use "junk", Wacko' , 'loons', 'dolts', 'failure'... etc etc.

Beachnut.. you give debunkers a bad name. You refuse to step up to the plate except from the protection of the JREF.


It is clear who is more confident and who is desperate. You spend almost everyday talking about P4T. How much time to they spend talking about you?

I'd say it, but i'd probaby get banned.

No one ever talks about me. Gee, never, do they. You did not mention beachnut did you? Irony, or what?

P4t are mentioned because, like bigfoot, they are CTers who fail to produce evidence. This is a CT forum, 9/11 sub forum, p4t are a major source of failed ideas on 9/11, they fit perfect in a skeptics sub forum based on 9/11 about nut case ideas on 9/11!

Case closed. Gee if they were failed car repair dolts for 9/11 truth we would talk about fcrd instead of p4t! Why not bring us some new frige group who use false ideas backed with failed research abilities and crasy claims like p4t. 11.2 G math/physics error has to be a classic failure to be used in a physics class to expose ignorance and why math and physics are a good idea to learn, and understand. I have save that page from p4t, the 11.2 G fiasco, so I can use in it class! You can't manufacture that level of stupid, it is just too priceless to pass up.

But so far only you have talked about me! Thank you, but it does make your rant ironic.

Does this mean you can't correct the 11.2 G error?

Sorry, but it is hard to believe there are people in the real world who believe the level of false information Rob spreads. So everyone who shows up quoting others out of context, requesting a phone debate quote mining session, is suspect to be a sock puppet of Rob, he has come by a few times to quote mind me and is obsessed with a real pilot who can see he is manufacturing false information so other can make up conclusions of lies!

Rob is clearly only interested in the classic snake oil salesman qualities, and he is very paranoid (out of real problems, or playing the truth issue up and CT junk up) of the government. Did the government ground Balsamo? The biggest CT of p4t is the capitalist ideals, not the truth, they strive for; truth (in the form of false ideas) at 15 dollars per DVD~! Too much truth for you to figure out.

Guess I was wrong about no one being at the level of p4t. (what would weedwacker do? or Tony Soprano do?)

 

[hxstamper]

These are the facts and they are undisputed:

As provided by the NTSB...

The "impact" time is 09:37:45 (does anyone dispute this?)

The altitude at 09:37:44 as provided by the NTSB is 173 PA. When adjusted for local pressure, Altitude is ~480 MSL (does anyone dispute this?)

We'll start there. Just a yes or no if you dispute the above. And if you dispute any point of the above, have you contacted the NTSB who provided such data? Or, do you think P4T "made up" the above numbers.

Many are watching. Many professionals who put their names and faces on the line, are watching you "Beachnut". We also know your medical hasnt been renewed since 2000. Almost as bad as Hordon.

"Beachnut", you have earned little respect in the aviation community. Some of our guys have checked you out (you may want to visit our core member page again, many have more access than you have ever claimed to have, you have also lied about some of your qualifications. We can only verify such if you debate us with your real name. We know why you refuse.). We also know why you refuse to register for P4t or debate on air. We also know why Anti-Sophist has disappeared from this thread.

Those who want to know more, encourage Anti-Sophist and Beachnut to contact us for a recorded debate, as Ron tried to do. The so-called "JREF Experts" dont want to debate because they claim we are "dolts" or "loons".. or there is nothing to debate? If that were the case, they could expose us in short order. It is clear who will expose the dolts in short order.

Anti-Sophist, the original poster was actually more accurate than Beachnut. Beachnut and Anti-Sophist also contradict each other.

I suspect Anti-Sophist left this thread for the same reason he refuse to debate anyone at P4T.

Ron,

We will be respectful if you get Anti-Sophist on "HardFire" (i expect Beachnut to remain behind his screen). We have many still flying the line with the airlines. I guarantee you, Anti_sophist will never show up. We will contact you soon (recorded of course) to hammer out the details.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

What i find "interesting" 'T.A.M', is that you spent your days and nights behind your screen attempting to assassinate character for those who speak out with their real name and faces on patriotsquestion911, while you yourself remain anonymous.

Care to post the link? I cant yet.. and dont really feel like looking for it (yet..)

ETA: (And they wonder why more arent 'speaking out', little do you know, you help us more than you harm. The people you have to worry about are the ones working behind the scenes)

Um, so what is your real name again?

 

[hxstamper]

Um, so what is your real name again?

Its among these people...

http://patriotsquestion911.com/pilots


You have anything remotely similar for your "experts"?