10 story hole in WTC 7

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I think you should look at the web definitions for molten:

mol·ten (mltn)
v. Archaic

A past participle of melt.
adj.
1. Made liquid by heat; melted: molten lead.
2. Made by melting and casting in a mold.
3. Brilliantly glowing, from or as if from intense heat
Correct, metal does not have to be a liquid to be called molten.

I told you this before, Fuchek was in area and not working with the recovery of debris.
Are you calling him a liar?

If the beam were not totally melted then the liquid portions and the solids would be in thermal equilibrium... the beam would come apart like putty..
Really? Source?
You do not know what the conditions were.

It is also unclear to what degree of metallurgy he is knowledgeable in.
Please
Anyone can recognize molten metal, it doesn't require a knowledge of metallurgy.

[FONT=&quot]"I saw [/FONT]melting of girders[FONT=&quot] in World Trade Center[/FONT][FONT=&quot]." said the first structural engineer given access to the WTC steel.[/FONT]
I already commented on this:
Marginally interesting, but not very specific on the molten steel claims.
Not specific? Get serious.
He stated that the steel melted, so why are you trying to deny that?
More than anything, the article describes that the collapse of the bridge, that is, the failure mode of the steel was similar to that of the trade centers
Irrelivant

[FONT=&quot]"I talked to many contractors and they said they actually saw [/FONT]molten metal[FONT=&quot] trapped, beams had just totally had been melted because of the heat." said Chaplain Herb Trimpe[/FONT]
key word: metal
Aluminum is a metal, iron is a metal, steel is a metal, lead is a metal... the account is not specific about the classification... Molten aluminum or lead would be unsurprising in the temperatures reported from the debris pile, but not molten steel or iron, although steel would be glowing cherry red at some of the recorded temperatures.
No, read the whole sentence.
Beams are made if steel!

Your half baked attempts to deny these clear statements that confirm the existence of molten steel only serve to prove your inability to accept anything that undermines the Cheney/Bush conspiracy theory.
 
Really? Source?

"It is observed that a higher temperature object which is in contact with a lower temperature object will transfer heat to the lower temperature object. The objects will approach the same temperature, and in the absence of loss to other objects, they will then maintain a constant temperature. They are then said to be in thermal equilibrium. Thermal equilibrium is the subject of the Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics."
Source

The 'putty' comment is essentially an analogy I used, but the principal is rather the same, Being found after long-term exposure, then it can reasonably be assumed that if it was indeed dripping with molten steel, the host beam would be at or near the same temperature, and efforts to remove it from the debris pile would have resulted in warping or distortion of the host beam.

You do not know what the conditions were.
Neither do you. I've been arguing based on analyzing the context of the witness accounts you have given. Nothing more.


Please
Anyone can recognize molten metal, it doesn't require a knowledge of metallurgy.
And I mostly certainly don't doubt that there was to some extent molten metal in the debris pile. But the constant mingling of molten metal and molten steel should be an indicator of the point I am trying to make to you. Most if not all of the witnesses are not trained in metallurgy to recognize the differences between the two terms or are able to recognize the type of molten metal right off the bat as steel just by looking at it. And understandably so...

You are relying solely on witnesses whom you cannot be certain are identifying the classification of metal correctly or not. You continually seem to ignore this glaring problem. Molten aluminum would not be surpirizing given the temperatures of the smoldering fires, (and it's abundance from being used on the facades of the trade centers and the planes, as well as the cars in the area). Hell if steel were glowing cherry red, or red-orange it wouldn't be entirely surprising given that temperatures in the debris pile were hovering around 1500 oF for as long as 6 weeks following the collapse of the towers.

Furthermore it seems that no samples of the molten material that was found was ever sampled for experimentation.

You continue to put words in my mouth by asking if I am calling people like Fuchek liars or idiots... I'm not calling them either... you missed the point I was making entirely. But you seem to have unfathomed expectations by assuming that everyone can identify the type of metal they see right off the bat.



Your half baked attempts to deny these clear statements that confirm the existence of molten steel only serve to prove your inability to accept anything that undermines the Cheney/Bush conspiracy theory.

[derail] which reminds me, how exactly does molten metal prove a controlled demolition in the firs place? Controlled demolitions do not typically result in this phenomenon, and thermite if we ever assumed this was the cause, would have run out of steam within a very short period of time, any metal or rather 'steel' would begin to solidify again the moment the heat source sufficient to maintain a liquid state is lost[/derail]
 
"It is observed that a higher temperature object which is in contact with a lower temperature object will transfer heat to the lower temperature object. The objects will approach the same temperature, and in the absence of loss to other objects, they will then maintain a constant temperature. They are then said to be in thermal equilibrium. Thermal equilibrium is the subject of the Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics."
Correct
Another law states that a fire cannot heat something above the temperature of the fire.
Smoldering fires could only heat the steel to about 500-600[FONT=&quot]°C [/FONT]at most.

The 'putty' comment is essentially an analogy I used, but the principal is rather the same, Being found after long-term exposure, then it can reasonably be assumed that if it was indeed dripping with molten steel, the host beam would be at or near the same temperature, and efforts to remove it from the debris pile would have resulted in warping or distortion of the host beam.
Correct
The fact that there was molten steel dripping from the steel beam means it was about 1400-1500[FONT=&quot]°C[/FONT].


I've been arguing based on analyzing the context of the witness accounts you have given. Nothing more.
The witness accounts establish that there was molten steel.
This is supported by the photograph that Mark Loizeaux referred to and the thermal images showing a surface temperature of the WTC 7 debris pile was 727[FONT=&quot]°C. [/FONT]The molten metal under the debris pile was far hotter.
There was no airplane or aluminum framework in WTC 7.
The hot spot was outside the footprint of the sub station.


you seem to have unfathomed expectations by assuming that everyone can identify the type of metal they see right off the bat.
Overstatement

[subject shift] which reminds me, how exactly does molten metal prove a controlled demolition in the firs place? Controlled demolitions do not typically result in this phenomenon[/subject shift]
If you don't believe that there was molten steel under all three buildings then your question is moot.

and thermite if we ever assumed this was the cause, would have run out of steam within a very short period of time, any metal or rather 'steel' would begin to solidify again the moment the heat source sufficient to maintain a liquid state is lost
Thermite is the only known explanation for the molten steel.
Thermite burns at 4500[FONT=&quot]°C. [/FONT]That's 1800[FONT=&quot]°C[/FONT] above the melting point of steel[FONT=&quot].
[/FONT]Buried under a pile of rubble, it would cool slowly.
It is therefore not surprising that some spots stayed molten for months.
Carbon fuel could not last that long.
The molten steel was heating and burning the carbon fuel, not the other way around.
 
The color chart for 816[FONT=&quot]°C has the caption:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Unfanned coals of a wood fire approx."[/FONT]
http://www.blksmth.com/heat_colors.htm

If your photo shows something else, there is a fan and/or the colors have been pushed.

For the second time, there was no fan and the photos are exactly as they were taken. But -
Your estimates would seem to indicate the first fire is around 1300°C and the second at around 800°C. Is that about right?
 
[/FONT]Buried under a pile of rubble, it would cool slowly.
Not really, it would have been spread thin by the collapse and cooled fairly rapidly in contact with all of the cold debris.
It is therefore not surprising that some spots stayed molten for months.
Only a continuous fire would keep the temp up for months.
Carbon fuel could not last that long.
Why not? These were HUGe buildings, there was a lot of fuel.
The molten steel was heating and burning the carbon fuel, not the other way around.

How would molten metal cause the fuel burning? In reality, it would be the other way around, melting is endothermic, it would take heat away from the fire.
 
For the second time, there was no fan and the photos are exactly as they were taken. But -
Your estimates would seem to indicate the first fire is around 1300°C and the second at around 800°C. Is that about right?
No
You are trying to discount the molten steel in the crab claw with a photo you took inside. Your first version was obviously altered. This latest one is more realistic but your motive is clear and your photo is questionable at best.

Although judging temperature by color is an approximation and photos are not exactly color correct, this photo was taken by a professional in daylight and is reasonably close to color correct.
The photo of the crab claw shows the glob as being orange to yellow to white or near white.
To suggest that the yellow in the photo isn't yellow is ridiculous.
Metal glowing yellow is in the 1200-1400°C range.

Mark Loizeaux has no doubts that there was molten steel under all three buildings and spoke of the picture in question here.
[FONT=&quot]There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mark's statement, along with many others, the photo of the molten steel in the crab claw and the thermal images, constitute a body of evidence that is conclusive.

This is very difficult for all of us. Like you, my first reaction to the video of WTC 7 imploding was denial, but i got over it when i confirmed that the video was indeed WTC 7.
At some point you will get over your denial and accept the reality that there was molten steel under all three buildings.[/FONT]
 
No
You are trying to discount the molten steel in the crab claw with a photo you took inside. Your first version was obviously altered. This latest one is more realistic but your motive is clear and your photo is questionable at best...

Neither photo was altered. The only difference was the aperture used, for reasons I'm happy to explain, if anybody could give a damn * ;)

The two "hearth photos" were taken about one minute apart, and the fire itself was unchanged between shots. It was just jogging quietly along. Yet your colour "analysis" would lead the unwary to suspect a temperature range of some 800 - 1300 °C between the two. Do you see how crazy this is? It was the same damn fire, yet appeared dramatically different just through a couple of stops adjustment on the aperture setting.

* as it happens I have a minor interest in astronomy and bought a clamp to attach a digi-cam to the telescope. My old cheapie camera handled severe contrast (such as a lunar shot) all by itself and produced fair photos, but a "good" new camera needs manual aperture setting. The fire photos were an experiment to get to know the camera better.
 
Not really, it would have been spread thin by the collapse and cooled fairly rapidly in contact with all of the cold debris.

Only a continuous fire would keep the temp up for months.

Why not? These were HUGe buildings, there was a lot of fuel.


How would molten metal cause the fuel burning? In reality, it would be the other way around, melting is endothermic, it would take heat away from the fire.
We are in the realm of personal opinion here and i respectfully disagree with you.
Molten steel would heat up everything around it and make the combustible materials smolder. IMO

Smoldering carbon based fires are not hot enough to melt steel or corrode steel like the beam from WTC 7.
The corrosion of beam from WTC 7 is unique and the NIST explanation of sulfur in the drywall is unprecedented and unproven.
 
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Neither photo was altered. The only difference was the aperture used, for reasons I'm happy to explain, if anybody could give a damn * ;)

The two "hearth photos" were taken about one minute apart, and the fire itself was unchanged between shots. It was just jogging quietly along. Yet your colour "analysis" would lead the unwary to suspect a temperature range of some 800 - 1300 °C between the two. Do you see how crazy this is? It was the same damn fire, yet appeared dramatically different just through a couple of stops adjustment on the aperture setting.
OK, the photo you took of coals in a hearth doesn't accurately show the colors.

Just don't try to compare your indoor photo of coals glowing to the daylight photo of molten steel in the crab claw. It's a high quality photo and the orange to yellow to white is close to the actual colors.

Mark Loizeaux confirmed what we see in this photo.
 
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So what chris is saying is that any material and temperature can be determined simply by looking at the color of a material. And no matter what combination of materials, the color never changes no matter what.Sounds like magic to me.
 
OK, the photo you took of coals in a hearth doesn't accurately show the colors.

Just don't try to compare your indoor photo of coals glowing to the daylight photo of molten steel in the crab claw. It's a high quality photo and the orange to yellow to white is close to the actual colors.

How bizarre .. I always assumed that photo was taken at night. It certainly looks like it. Maybe impressions can be deceiving ????

Mark Loizeaux confirmed what we see in this photo.

Was he there at the time?
 
How bizarre .. I always assumed that photo was taken at night. It certainly looks like it. Maybe impressions can be deceiving ????
You are very creative in coming up with reasons to not believe what is obvious in the photo.

While the photo by itself is not necessarily proof of molten steel, when you consider the numerous reports of molten steel, the thermal images, and Mark Loizeaux saying "There are both video tapes and still photos of molten steel being dipped out by the buckets of excavators", there is no reason to doubt that we are looking at a photo of "molten steel being dipped out by the bucket of an excavator".

moltenmetalcr4.jpg


ETA: You're right, it was taken at night.
 
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This is probably the most egregious lie in the BBC piece. Drywall is used for fireproofing and the sulfur in drywall is locked in a chemical cage. Fires smolder at about 500-600°C. This is nowhere near hot enough to erode steel. The "sulfur from gypsum" theory is unprecedented and unproven. Prof. Sisson is spouting junk science as if it were fact.

how high must have been the temperature there to erode the steel? Are there studies about eroding steel, which indicate what time is needed with a certain temperature?
 
You are very creative in coming up with reasons to not believe what is obvious in the photo.

While the photo by itself is not necessarily proof of molten steel, when you consider the numerous reports of molten steel, the thermal images, and Mark Loizeaux saying "There are both video tapes and still photos of molten steel being dipped out by the buckets of excavators", there is no reason to doubt that we are looking at a photo of "molten steel being dipped out by the bucket of an excavator".

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1925/moltenmetalcr4.jpg

ETA: You're right, it was taken at night.

My bolding.

Chris, that isn't a bucket at all, so it can't be "dipping" anything. And whatever state that yellow object might once have been in, right now it isn't liquid. Therefore your (bolded) statement above is plain wrong on two counts.

If you have any better luck in finding a photo of an excavator bucket dipping molten metal, please let us know.
 
My bolding.

Chris, that isn't a bucket at all, so it can't be "dipping" anything. And whatever state that yellow object might once have been in, right now it isn't liquid. Therefore your (bolded) statement above is plain wrong on two counts.

If you have any better luck in finding a photo of an excavator bucket dipping molten metal, please let us know.


Don't hold your breath.
 
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