Why is prostitution illegal?

Misrepresentation: I've never said that the inevitability of something determines if it's legal or not, I've said that since you believe that prostitution is an inevitability, wouldn't it be better if it was legal?


Misrepresentation! Where did I say that prostitution is an inevitability? Isn't that Franka's claim?

Yes, because then they can get government funding, legally ask for donations, become non-profit organization, etc, etc. Also, those who are prostitutes who want to keep working (for whatever reason) can keep making money to feed their families while being trained for other jobs, if that's their choice. Right now, with it being illegal, the people who are seeking help would be less likely to go to such a place because illegality means that if a pimp, let's say wants to force someone not to go, they would be more successful in forcing because there is no legal recourse for the prostitute. No real protection.


This is more fiction! They shut up about hooking mainly because they don't want to lose their social security benefits. This is not changed by prostitution being legal.

Thank you. Now the next step is seeing your choices and weighing the outcomes compared to the sacrifices. Usually, the easier choice (the ones with perceived to have the least sacrifices) are taken. Sometimes it's a hard choice, the proverbial "rock and hard place", choice where there's not much of a difference. And taking that choice falls into what was mentioned before as "It's a bad choice, but I would've taken it too so I don't blame you". Or one can take the risk and make some major sacrifices, as some has. Or people can help.


Does this have a point? At all?

Also, the choices one has made throughout their lives affect that choice they have to make now. Am I saying that it's the victim's fault if they are kidnapped and trafficked? No, of course not. I'm not talking about fault. I'm talking about choice.


Is there a point to this?

But anyway Dann, I'm sorry to say this, but it's hypocritical to me to say "these people have no choice - why do you insist on your dream world" when you are offering no solutions other than "believe in Marxism, that's the answer." Sorry, Dann, you are sounding more and more like a preacher than a logical thinker.


One thing is the perpetual strawman - FrankA may actually believe in it, I don't know - but I wish he'd at least stop inventing quotations!!!
 
*sigh* No, it's not. It's actually the topic of this discussion. I'm falling down the slippery slope and the red herrings that some people have been putting up.

The topic is "Why is prostitution illegal?" We seem to get side-tracked a lot. Partly my fault, too. My apologies.

Cyborg was using irony because, he recognizes that some people are pretending that they have the noble goal of keeping women from being exploited --and they believe that keeping prostitution illegal aids that goal. (Cyborg is excellent at cutting through the BS.)

Of course the moral pontificaters have no evidence that keeping prostitution illegal helps women in any way-- so they use their derailing side questions to imply this point and assert their moral superiority despite knowing nothing on the subject except their belief in their own opinion that making prostitution illegal helps women. They put you down so they can build up their own imagined moral superiority. They cannot answer the OP, so instead they will insult those who point out that there is no good reason for prostitution to be illegal.

It's insulting to people who don't feel exploited and have chosen this line of work as well as those who pay to have sex--and it does not help those who have fallen into this line of work the way legalizing brothels in Nevada has (The women are regularly tested for venereal diseases and condom use is mandatory--they also have physical protection a home, food, and companionship, etc.). In fact, those arguing for keeping it illegal are promoting the very social stigma which is most correlated with exploitation of prostitutes. It is similar to promoting atheist bigotry by promoting a straw man view of atheism while asserting that one holds a more moral and diplomatic middle ground.

You are correct... we have laws to deal with the ways humans are exploited... what we don't have is a way for people to legally enter into an arrangement while using the law to protect them from exploitation. When prostitution is illegal, prostitutes don't go to law enforcement for help.

The pontificaters are well known for leading people off topic with false analogies and loaded questions because they have no evidence for their position, and they avoid all evidence which negates their conviction (including peer reviewed studies that compare the exploitation of women where prostitution is legal and where it is not.) Moreover, they have no actual rational reasons as to why it is illegal--the very question in the OP.

Their moralizing is on par with the "just say no" campaign against drugs or abstinence only education... or laws against divorce. It feels good to the self-righteous, but when you crunch the numbers, you find that form trumps function ...It makes the pontificaters feel morally superior without having to do anything moral at all. Laws against prostitution have no measurable efficacy in preventing the exploitation of anyone. Moreover, it insults people involved in the industry... most of whom don't want legal sanctions in regards to what they, as consenting adults, can do with their body and/or their money.

They will mischaracterize your argument to fight some straw man version and insist on getting the last word. Don't feel compelled to answer trolling questions and rest assured, no one but them is paying any attention to their mischaracterization of your words. You don't need to defend yourself against their straw men nor reexplain your position over and over. The smart people got it. Those who haven't, never will.
 
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So thanks for affirming the obvious even more... prostitution is illegal because it conflicts with peoples' moral views--it's a religious based law disguised as a concern for women.

ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.
 
How about this for an idea:

Making buying sex illegal, but allow private escorts who operate independently. I.e., no brothels, street walkers or sex-for-sale ads.
 
Basically they're very different:
'So what do I choose? The lobster or the filet mignon? Well, why choose? I think I'll have both.'
This kind of choice hasn't got much in common with:
'How will I pay the rent, now that I've lost my stinking job?'

So let us look at the options of a woman in the second circumstance:
1) I can get another stinking job (maybe)
2) I can not pay my rent and get evicted and move to a shelter or live on the street
3) I can move in with my abusive boyfriend
4) I can apply for government assistance
5) I can appeal to local charities
6) I can steal the money
7) I can deal some drugs
8) I can turn some tricks

So to say that the woman turns to prostitution because she "has no other option" is false: she turns to prostitution because she sees it as the best of a multitude bad options.

If you eliminate option #8, what have you really done for her? You haven't given her any new options, or made options #1-#7 any more attractive. This only helps her if you know what is best for her better than she does: you think, for example, #1 would be better for her than #8. Which is, frankly, patronizing. And, of course, it will only lead to your improved outcome if she chooses your preferred option. If instead she chooses #6, we have replaced a victimless crime with one with a victim.

Eliminating poverty will not eliminate prostitution. Eliot Spitzer's call girl was not destitute. It would certainly decrease the number of women entering the profession, which would drive up wages until supply meets demand.
 
Cyborg was using irony because, he recognizes that some people are pretending that they have the noble goal of keeping women from being exploited --and they believe that keeping prostitution illegal aids that goal. (Cyborg is excellent at cutting through the BS.)

Of course the moral pontificaters have no evidence that keeping prostitution illegal helps women in any way-- so they use their derailing side questions to imply this point and assert their moral superiority despite knowing nothing on the subject except their belief in their own opinion that making prostitution illegal helps women. They put you down so they can build up their own imagined moral superiority. They cannot answer the OP, so instead they will insult those who point out that there is no good reason for prostitution to be illegal.

It's insulting to people who don't feel exploited and have chosen this line of work as well as those who pay to have sex--and it does not help those who have fallen into this line of work the way legalizing brothels in Nevada has (The women are regularly tested for venereal diseases and condom use is mandatory--they also have physical protection a home, food, and companionship, etc.). In fact, those arguing for keeping it illegal are promoting the very social stigma which is most correlated with exploitation of prostitutes. It is similar to promoting atheist bigotry by promoting a straw man view of atheism while asserting that one holds a more moral and diplomatic middle ground.

You are correct... we have laws to deal with the ways humans are exploited... what we don't have is a way for people to legally enter into an arrangement while using the law to protect them from exploitation. When prostitution is illegal, prostitutes don't go to law enforcement for help.

The pontificaters are well known for leading people off topic with false analogies and loaded questions because they have no evidence for their position, and they avoid all evidence which negates their conviction (including peer reviewed studies that compare the exploitation of women where prostitution is legal and where it is not.) Moreover, they have no actual rational reasons as to why it is illegal--the very question in the OP.

Their moralizing is on par with the "just say no" campaign against drugs or abstinence only education... or laws against divorce. It feels good to the self-righteous, but when you crunch the numbers, you find that form trumps function ...It makes the pontificaters feel morally superior without having to do anything moral at all. Laws against prostitution have no measurable efficacy in preventing the exploitation of anyone. Moreover, it insults people involved in the industry... most of whom don't want legal sanctions in regards to what they, as consenting adults, can do with their body and/or their money.

They will mischaracterize your argument to fight some straw man version and insist on getting the last word. Don't feel compelled to answer trolling questions and rest assured, no one but them is paying any attention to their mischaracterization of your words. You don't need to defend yourself against their straw men nor reexplain your position over and over. The smart people got it. Those who haven't, never will.

Yeah, I see that, and I made a bad choice and chose to let my "debating nature" get the better of me. So I'm guilty of falling into that red herring trap. Again, my apologies to the people on the thread who want to discuss this seriously.

ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

Yup. I have to agree there. :)
 
How about this for an idea:

Making buying sex illegal, but allow private escorts who operate independently. I.e., no brothels, street walkers or sex-for-sale ads.

Does this make more sense to anyone else than it does to me?

buying sex is illegal, but escorts are allowed to sell sex? But they can't advertise? How am I supposed to find such an escort?
 
Does this make more sense to anyone else than it does to me?

buying sex is illegal, but escorts are allowed to sell sex? But they can't advertise? How am I supposed to find such an escort?

They can't advertise sex for sale, but they can advertise their company for a fee. I.e. clients pay for the attention of an escort for a period of time. What they agree to do after they meet is up to them.

Importantly, the escorts are independent, and it is illegal for anyone to manage their business, though it would be legal for the escorts to employ staff ETA: to handle other aspects of their business.

ETA2: Direct marketing would be prohibited.
 
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They can't advertise sex for sale, but they can advertise their company for a fee. I.e. clients pay for the attention of an escort for a period of time. What they agree to do after they meet is up to them.

Importantly, the escorts are independent, and it is illegal for anyone to manage their business, though it would be legal for the escorts to employ staff ETA: to handle other aspects of their business.

ETA2: Direct marketing would be prohibited.

Please, do me a favor, Ivor.....

Please tell me you're kidding or you're just trolling.

Please tell me you're not that stupid.

ETA: I'm sorry if I sounded insulting, it's just a very stupid idea.
 
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Please, do me a favor, Ivor.....

Please tell me you're kidding or you're just trolling.

Please tell me you're not that stupid.

No, I'm serious. Please, make me look (more) stupid by explaining why something like this would not work?
 
Well, it's not that different from what we have now. Go to the sports section of your paper and you will probably see ads for escort services. At least in the US we do.

so the problems:
1) the sex remains illegal, so the escort has limited legal protections
2) there is no provision for health screening
3) it creates a facade that we are banning prostitution while in fact allowing it, for no obvious benefit other than allowing the hypocritical to maintain their hypocrisy

Why not do the same thing, but call them prostitutes instead of escorts, and legalize the selling of sex?
 
So let us look at the options of a woman in the second circumstance:
1) I can get another stinking job (maybe)
2) I can not pay my rent and get evicted and move to a shelter or live on the street
3) I can move in with my abusive boyfriend
4) I can apply for government assistance
5) I can appeal to local charities
6) I can steal the money
7) I can deal some drugs
8) I can turn some tricks

So to say that the woman turns to prostitution because she "has no other option" is false: she turns to prostitution because she sees it as the best of a multitude bad options.


I agree! In the individual case, however, some of these bad choices may not exist. Option 4, for instance, does not exist in the case of illegal immigrants, which is why even trafficked women in Denmark cannot go to the police. If they do, they not only risk the punishment of the traffickers but also immediate expulsion.

Eliminating poverty will not eliminate prostitution.


Well, it would eliminate the coercion of women who turn tricks because their only other option is "multitude of bad options"! I think that they could live with that! (In very stupid old movies death was presented as the moral option for women faced with 'the fate worse than death'.)

Eliot Spitzer's call girl was not destitute. It would certainly decrease the number of women entering the profession, which would drive up wages until supply meets demand.


Supply always 'meets demand'. Sometimes by letting the suppliers of services die of starvation.
 
so the problems:
1) the sex remains illegal, so the escort has limited legal protections


I hope that you are aware that legalization does not eliminate this problem.

2) there is no provision for health screening


Not necessarily true, and also not eliminated by legalization!

3) it creates a facade that we are banning prostitution while in fact allowing it, for no obvious benefit other than allowing the hypocritical to maintain their hypocrisy


I agree! This is probably the reason why otherwise similar countries may differ very much in their attitude to prostitution.

Why not do the same thing, but call them prostitutes instead of escorts, and legalize the selling of sex?


I hope that you are aware that the three problems you mention here do not at all address the very real problems of poor women forced to prostitute themselves:
1) I can get another stinking job (maybe)
2) I can not pay my rent and get evicted and move to a shelter or live on the street
3) I can move in with my abusive boyfriend
4) I can apply for government assistance
5) I can appeal to local charities
6) I can steal the money
7) I can deal some drugs
8) I can turn some tricks

So to say that the woman turns to prostitution because she "has no other option" is false: she turns to prostitution because she sees it as the best of a multitude bad options.
 
Well, it's not that different from what we have now. Go to the sports section of your paper and you will probably see ads for escort services. At least in the US we do.

so the problems:
1) the sex remains illegal, so the escort has limited legal protections

How is the escort's legal protection limited? She/He is paid by the client to spend time with him/her. What happens during that time is by mutual consent only.

2) there is no provision for health screening

I thought you didn't want to dictate how people live their lives? The escort can use the same medical facilities everyone else does, since she/he is not doing anything illegal.

3) it creates a facade that we are banning prostitution while in fact allowing it, for no obvious benefit other than allowing the hypocritical to maintain their hypocrisy

Not really. It's regulating how those people who wish to sell their time and attention and those that wish to purchase it can operate. It allows women and men who enjoy performing sexual favours for money to do so. It puts them on the right side of the law, so they have the protection of it. It stops "managers" taking exploitative amounts of money off them. It stops the formation of brothels. Basically, it treats them as human, not a service.

Why not do the same thing, but call them prostitutes instead of escorts, and legalize the selling of sex?

Because that does not appear to solve the problem of exploitation, which from my research appears to be mainly associated with brothels (both legal and illegal), managers/pimps and street walking.
 
so the problems (of illegality, dann):
(...)
2) there is no provision for health screening


I knew I had a quotation somewhere. Remember that prostitution and brothels are legal in Germany:
A German example concerning health insurance:
„Grundsätzlich könnten sich Prostituierte auch privat krankenversichern; allerdings werden sie von privaten Krankenversicherungen in der Regel wegen zu hoher Risiken abgelehnt.“
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution#Deutschland
My translation: ”In principle prostitutes may take out policies of health insurance; however, they are usually turned down by the private health insurance companies because of the increased risk.”
 
She/He is paid by the client to spend time with him/her. What happens during that time is by mutual consent only.

That's how it is now. You're not changing anything. You're only making more difficult for the prostitute (all types of prostitutes) to find clients and calling it "protection from exploitation".

I thought you didn't want to dictate how people live their lives? The escort can use the same medical facilities everyone else does, since she/he is not doing anything illegal.

You know, you're just as bad as Dann when it comes to twisting meanings and words. Regulating health is not dictating someone's life. Telling them to not do it outright period or telling them you can do it but your customers can't, is.

Not really. It's regulating how those people who wish to sell their time and attention and those that wish to purchase it can operate.

My bold! There see!!! "regulating". Didn't you mean "dictating"? I mean, you did mix up the words before.....

Bye the way, no it doesn't. It forbids people to use the services that the prostitutes offer. It's no different than what's happening now.

It allows women and men who enjoy performing sexual favours for money to do so. It puts them on the right side of the law, so they have the protection of it. It stops "managers" taking exploitative amounts of money off them. It stops the formation of brothels. Basically, it treats them as human, not a service.

No, it doesn't. Not in any way. Here's an example of what you are proposing. Let's say you make cakes. The government is going to tell you this:

"Hey, you can make this cake for people but you a) can't have a store, b) a person take care of the business end of your bakery while you cook if you choose to, c) no one can buy your cakes, d) if we catch anyone at all eating your cakes, whether it's from your business or just because you feel like it, the eater is at the risk of being arrested and possibly spend money in court e) you can't tell anyone that you make cakes, f) if someone claims to get sick from your cakes, you have no defense g) if you get sick yourself there is no way you can be covered by health insurance.

"However we guarantee you won't get arrested for selling cakes."

...do you see how stupid that is? Is that helping you make money at all? Let's see you be an engineer with all those stipulations on you.

Because that does not appear to solve the problem of exploitation, which from my research appears to be mainly associated with brothels (both legal and illegal), managers/pimps and street walking.

And keeping it illegal, in any form, has helped? The articles about this law that actually went to the streets and talked to the street walkers all said the same thing: the street walker don't see a difference. In fact, they said they have it worse.

You are so worried about exploitation yet your idea does absolutely NOTHING to lessen it. All it does is make it harder for prostitutes (the ones who want to be prostitutes) to get advertising, steady customers, a manager who really wants to run the business without abuse, health care, and a safe place to work. For the street walker it sends them further underground, with customers who are paying less money, and no hope of getting any aid at all.

Congratulations! You've made a bad situation worse.

Now. Coming back to the topic at hand, this to me shows a reason why prostitution is illegal. Obviously to me, the only thing that Ivor cares about is that there is no "exploitation". That's a moral stance. His solution does nothing to help the prostitute, whether they want to be in the business or not, but says it will work simply because it will punish men who want to buy sex. That again is a moral stance. Ivor, you've also said something about billionaire cheating men who write off a visit to the prostitute on their taxes. Again, a moral stance said to inspire anger at those awful, awful men.

(Of course, he's forgetting the poor lonely men (and women -- yes women go to prostitutes too! I've seen it!) who aren't rich but just want to some human interaction. Oh, but as Ivor put it, and again, this is an approximation of what he said: that's why hands can reach their genitals)

The only reason I've seen from all the anti-legal prostitution stance is morals and high brow preaching.

No real reason at all..........
 
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