Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[Jonnyclueless]

I always thought that WTC building shoulda had more than one elevator. Pitty. Well, now they know better than to just have one elevator. Thanks TWS.

BTW. WE can show that it actually would have taken 60 seconds to get to the bottom by examining African Gorilla droppings.

 

[Travis]

I never claimed to know the exact times. Of course the exact time is unknown and shall remain as such but we can approximate. For example, we can estimate how long it takes a droplet of fuel to descend 90+floors (30secs), we can estimate how long it takes a fireball (15 secs). We can estimate how long it takes car 50 to fall 17 floors (10secs). But what you fail to recognize is that my argument does not require that we know the exact times.
To explain, from the testimony of Felipe David, Philip Morelli, Arturo Griffith and Marlene Cruz we know that the first basement explosion occured BEFORE car 50 reached B1. This means that the fireball, jet fuel, or whatever new morphology takes the JREFers fancy – had to have passed car 50 undetected and then explode. There is no way around this fact.

Unfortunately we are still dealing with perception. As in they may have "perceived" the explosion as occurring under them. Blast wave refraction could easily lead to a miss-perception of the blasts origins or, alternatively, it could be that the blast wave, which would travel insanely fast down the confined space of the shafts could have bounced back up.

Your latest modified argument is still essentially the official NIST fireball hypothesis. You reject the unofficial unignited jet fuel hypothesis. But I have debunked the official fireball hypothesis ages ago in post#210. But allow me once again to outline the many reasons why the official fireball hypothesis is false

1: As explained above it violates the known timeline of events.

2: The occupants in car 50 did not report or experience a fireball passing (see post#210)

The primary blast wave could have traveled down one of the other elevator shafts before entering the mechanical common areas beneath then traveled up the other shafts.

3: There were no reports of car 50 being damaged from overpressures yet the overpressures supposedly burst down elevator shaft doors.

Again, the primary blast wave may have traveled down a different shaft. Also...

4: There are no reports of car 50 being burnt

...has someone done a forensic analysis of car 50?

5: Humans can detect jet fuel in the air as low as 1 ppm. Yet the occupants of car 50 did not smell burning jet fuel passing. Moreover they did not report the smell of jet fuel after the explosion in the basement had occured.

Not reported does not mean not experienced. If I never tell anyone that I bumped my knee on my end table does that mean I never bumped my knee on the end table?

6: According to NIST the deflagration following the plane impact expanded at 28m/s for 2.5 secs. So the witnessed deflagration travelled approx. 70m from the impact zone but the unseen part of the same deflagration had to travel approx. 270m, almost FOUR TIMES A GREATER DISTANCE, in order to reach the basement. Norseman claims that “The driving force was overpressure generated inside the fireball on the impact floors and overpressure generated by continued burning inside the elevator shafts”. But wouldnt the burning jet fuel burn itself out before it reached the basement? Answer: yes it would.

Based on what evidence?

8: Overpressure would decrease over distance and time away from the impact zone. Therefore elevator doors closer to the impact zone would be blown out. This would naturally reduce the strenght of the overpressure. Eventually as this process continued the descending fireball would not possess enough energy to burst down elevator shaft doors. Especially 90+ floors below the impact zone. For the official hypothesis to be true the fireball had to maintain its overpressure for 270m after travelling 13 seconds.

Inside the confines of the shafts the overpressure would not dissipate in the same manner it would in open air.

9: The official fireball hypothesis violates the natural behaviour of deflagrations. Deflagrations travel the path of least resistance. The path of least resistance is down the elevator shaft. The path of greater resistence involves traveling down the elevators shaft and bursting out elevator shaft doors.

Have you done empirical experiments to see just how much of a PSI difference there would have to be for the elevator doors to fail?

10: the official fireball hypothesis has never been tested or proven.

Negotiations to create fuel/air deflagrations in 110 story buildings for experimental purposes are ongoing but most building owners are rejecting such proposals for some reason.

The above reasons I outlined above are why I am unable to RATIONALLY believe the official fireball hypothesis.

Perhaps the strongest argument against the argument that the first explosion in the basement was caused by an explosive (what, explosives causing explosions what an absurd proposition!!!) is based on medical reports of burst eardrums. But there were dead people in the lobby Norseman some had body parts blown off them. I dont think it is unreasonable to presume that their eardrums had also been burst.

Not necessarily. There are ways for body parts to be missing the don't involve trauma from supersonic shock waves. They could have been incinerated or sheared off by debris.

 

[Norseman]

I never claimed to know the exact times. Of course the exact time is unknown and shall remain as such but we can approximate. For example, we can estimate how long it takes a droplet of fuel to descend 90+floors (30secs), we can estimate how long it takes a fireball (15 secs). We can estimate how long it takes car 50 to fall 17 floors (10secs). But what you fail to recognize is that my argument does not require that we know the exact times.
To explain, from the testimony of Felipe David, Philip Morelli, Arturo Griffith and Marlene Cruz we know that the first basement explosion occured BEFORE car 50 reached B1. This means that the fireball, jet fuel, or whatever new morphology takes the JREFers fancy – had to have passed car 50 undetected and then explode. There is no way around this fact.
...............

Finally, my arguments are supported to some extent by testimony. I use testimony from individuals directly infront of the freight elevator shaft door (Phillip Morelli, Felipe David). I use testimony from individuals inside elevators (Arturo Griffith, Marlene Cruz, Harry Kaiser and Carmen Griffith). Such accounts are the most relevant because according to the official fireball hypothesis the fireball in the basement descended the elevator shafts, and in particular, the freight elevator shaft. You on the other hand use testimony from individuals who were outside the north tower. Why do you not use the most relevant testimony? Is it because it does not support the official fireball hypothesis?

I have basically answered this already in my post #499, 3 1/2 hour before your post. The post you are responding to here is just a modification of my OP. My view has always been that the jet fuel fireball arrived after elevator car #50 reached B1/B2. I would also say that it is fair to claim that the fireballs in the elevator shaft of car #6 and #7 and in the shaft of car #50 arrived more or less simultaneously in the ground lobby and the basement levels of WTC 1.

As should be evident from my post #499 there is no need for any jet fuel or your fantasy bombs to explain the first "explosion" heard by Felipe David and other witnesses in the basement levels of WTC 1. In all likelihood the first thing they heard and felt was the impact of Flight 11 itself transfered through the structure, just like numerous other witnesses on all levels of WTC 1 (see post #499 for links). That would be the first "explosion" they heard.

The tower was impacted a by 128 000 kg aircraft at a speed of 200 m/s. Sound travels through structural steel with a speed of about 4500 m/s. So the impact shock wave would reach B1 instantly. Felipe David would hear the impact sound transferred through the core columns. And he would feel the impact shock wave and the following vibrations through the floor he was standing on, something that easily would lead him to believe that the "explosion" occurred below him.

In other words you got nothing.

 

[Norseman]

.......
The following is a list of phenomena witnessed in North Tower:

(a) Sound of explosion
(b) Smoke
(c) Glass blown out
(d) Building shaking
(e) Elevador door blown up
(f) Walls blown rubble
(g) 3+ consecutive walls blown down
(h) 300pound steel fire door crumbled up
(i) Steel beams blown apart
(j) Clothes blown off
(k) People running and screaming
(l) People thrown to the floor
(m) Skin burnt off
Body parts blown off
(o) Pile of dead bodies

All of the above ACTUALLY HAPPENED and can be found here: http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethenorthtower:witnessaccounts,lobb

1: The following are just some of the events that we know occurred before a fireball arrived in the basment (a) (b) (d) (e) (k) (l) (m). In post 288 and post 329 I dismissed falling debris, a fireball, and unignited jet fuel as possible explanations.

According to Clueless’s own standard (a) (b) (d) (e) (k) (l) (m) should be considered as EVIDENCE of bombs because I have ruled out all other causal explanations.

2: The following cannot possibly be explained by a fuel deflagration that only produces a maximum overpressure of 5psi (g) (h) (i) (o).

Again according to his own standard (g) (h) (i) (o) should be considered as EVIDENCE of bombs because bombs are the only possible causal explanation and everything else can be ruled out.

3: Needless to say that ALL (a) to (o) can be causally explained by a bomb
.........

You are repeatedly referencing to this post thewholesoul as your ultimate evidence of bombs in the basement. But the fact is that everything in that post can be explained as a consequence Flight 11's impact and in one case the collapse of WTC 2. Here is the short version, your claims in bold letters:

(a) Sound of explosion
Aircraft impact, jet fuel deflagration, falling debris and bodies.

(b) Smoke
Jet fuel deflagration(fireballs), fire, dust from debris like concrete and gypsum wall board falling down the elevator shafts from the impact zone.

(c) Glass blown out
Over pressure from jet fuel deflagration. An over pressure of 1 PSI is more than enough.

(d) Building shaking
Aircraft impact and impact of heavy debris.

(e) Elevador door blown up
Over pressure from jet fuel deflagration. Just calculate what load a 1 PSI, 2 PSI, 3 PSI, 4 PSI or 5 PSI over pressure amounts to on a given door surface. Or was this your literal interpretation of Marlene Cruz's use of the phrase "blown up"?

(f) Walls blown rubble
Over pressure from jet fuel deflagration. A cinderblock wall similar to the walls found in basement of WTC 1 collapses from a over pressure of 2-3 PSI.

(g) 3+ consecutive walls blown down
Over pressure from jet fuel deflagration. We are on B4 here. The deflagration of the remaining jet fuel in the fireballs when it was forced out of the elevator shafts on B4 and mixing with air, would rapidly increase the pressure in the confined space on that level. The pressure increase would press on all surfaces in any direction. If the pressure is higher than what a wall can withstand it will fail. If the pressure still is to high, or continues to increase due to the deflagration, after expanding into the new space it will fail the next wall to and so on.

(h) 300pound steel fire door crumbled up
Se (e).

(i) Steel beams blown apart
This was the example of Bill Pekrol. He or the person writing the story is mistaken. It was steel beams from the collapse of WTC 2 and not jet fuel exploding in the elevator shafts in the ground lobby of WTC 1. The timeframe of his story indicates clearly that he arrived in the Lobby when WTC 2 collapsed. Any way it did not occur at the time of Flight 11's impact.

(j) Clothes blown off
No they were burned off by the jet fuel fireballs that enveloped them.

(k) People running and screaming
Of course people would by running and screaming when an aircraft hits the building they are inside and jet fuel fireballs travels down the elevator shafts.

(l) People thrown to the floor
Building shaking from the aircraft impact or over pressure caused by jet fuel deflagration. Later would force air out of elevator shafts and rooms at high speed throwing them to the floor.

(m) Skin burnt off
See (j).

Body parts blown off
Cut off by breaking glass or falling debris.

(o) Pile of dead bodies
That was the pile of dead bodies in front of the elevators in ground Lobby of WTC 1. They were burned to death by the jet fuel fireballs.

Examples of over pressure needed to fail building structures:

GLASS SHATTERING : 0-5 PSI
FIREFIGHTER KNOCKDOWN: 1.PSI
WOOD PARTITION COLLAPSE: 1-2 PSI
CINDERBLOCK WALL COLLAPSE: 2-3 PSI
BRICK WALL COLLAPSE: 7-8 PSI

Source: http://www.firenuggets.com/dunn5.htm

In other words there is no need for the thewholesoul's fantasy bombs to explain this.

 

[thewholesoul]

In the above post thewholesoul puts a lot of faith into the witness account of Felipe David. Believing that he can use it to support his totally unsubstantiated claims about bombs in the basement.

Yes i put a lot of weight on his testimony. I use his testimony, among others, to support premise#4 i.e that the FIRST basement explosion occured BEFORE car 50 reaching B1. which i notice you still avoid addressing.

But the fact is that the witness account of Felipe David is fully consistent with the sequence of events caused by the impact of Flight 11 into WTC 1.

Fully consistent? The only way his testimony is fully consistent with your plane impact hypothesis is by twisting his testimony and flat out ignoring the most significant element of his experience!

your argument was as follows: because (a) others in the building mistook the plane imapct as an explosion therefore (b) Felipe David was also mistaken. This is a logically weak argument but for the sake of brevity I will simply argue against the conclusion that Felipe David was wrong when he claimed (on several different occasions) that the explosion came from below.

"That day I was in the basement in sub-level 1 sometime after 8:30am. Everything happened so fast, everything moved so fast. The building started shaking after I heard the explosion below, dust was flying everywhere and all of a sudden it got real hot. "I threw myself onto the floor, covered my face because I felt like I was burned. I sat there for a couple of seconds on the floor and felt like I was going to die, saying to myself 'God, please give me strength."

According to Norseman the above testimony can be explained, he says

Maybe it was the vibrations from the impact transferred through the structure down to the floor Felipe David was standing on that led him to think that the explosion occurred below him

Norseman in post#492 you argued that the basment explosion was caused by a fireball descending the elevator shaft. Now you argue that vibrations from the plane impact explain David’s experience. But let us leave this inconsistency aside. Here is the simple reason why I know, and why Felipe certainly knows, you are wrong:

VIBRRATIONS FROM A PLANE IMPACT 90+ FLOORS ABOVE DO NOT BURN PEOPLES SKIN OFF THEIR FACE

Come on Norseman, vibrations from the impact? Would they not decrease in energy over time and distance from the impact zone? If it were vibrations then why did he hear the explosion FIRST and then felt the bulding shaking? Wouldn t they be in reverse order if what your saying is true? And then there are all the other witnessess on the same floor who testify hearing an explosion or loud noise coming from below...were they all mistaken? and all those on B4 level claiming they heard an explosion above.

If your seriously arguing that the vibrations from a plane impact 90+ floors above burnt the skin off David’s face then it is you, not I, that has unfortunately got nothing left to offer.

i am simply baffled how anyone can read his testimony and say that the sound, dust, heat, vibrations, and burn injuries were the result of a vibrations travelling down 90+floors.

peace

 

[thewholesoul]

I have basically answered this already in my post #499, 3 1/2 hour before your post.

saying that "maybe" Felipe was mistaken is hardly a response.

My view has always been that the jet fuel fireball arrived after elevator car #50 reached B1/B2.

i have never disputed that a fireball did descend the elevator shaft after car 50 reached B1. but an explosion did occur before car 50 reached B1. i support this claim with various reasons that you have avoided to address. we have had many exchanges on this issue and your explanations have varied from falling debris, fireball down alternate shaftways, to now vibrations. i have countered every modification you have made.

are you denying that an explosion occured before car 50 reached B1? if so then you must refute ALL the reasons i provide in post 420 that support this claim.

As should be evident from my post #499 there is no need for any jet fuel or your fantasy bombs to explain the first "explosion" heard by Felipe David and other witnesses in the basement levels of WTC 1.

post #499 was a farce. you simply tried to establish that Felip David was "perhaps" mistaken and then flat out ignore the fact that his skin was burnt off his face by intense heat. so unless your saying the vibrations can cause this effect then i suggest you start searching for yet another explanation.

besides the testimony of felipe david is not the sole supporting testimony for premise#4. AFTER an explosion threw Philip Morelli to the ground he heard the freight elevator falling down the shaft. and i can use more testimony from others if needs be to further support premise#4

In all likelihood the first thing they heard and felt was the impact of Flight 11 itself transfered through the structure, just like numerous other witnesses on all levels of WTC 1 (see post #499 for links). That would be the first "explosion" they heard.

again the frist explosion heard burnt Felipes skin off.

The tower was impacted a by 128 000 kg aircraft at a speed of 200 m/s. Sound travels through structural steel with a speed of about 4500 m/s. So the impact shock wave would reach B1 instantly. Felipe David would hear the impact sound transferred through the core columns. And he would feel the impact shock wave and the following vibrations through the floor he was standing on, something that easily would lead him to believe that the "explosion" occurred below him.

In other words you got nothing.

is that a new slogan Norseman? "you got nothing". its a strong statement coming from somebody who believes vibrations can burn the skin off peoples faces from 90+ floors above.

i could tear many wholes in your more detailed explanation but whats the point?

peace

 

[thewholesoul]

You are repeatedly referencing to this post thewholesoul as your ultimate evidence of bombs in the basement.

correct

But the fact is that everything in that post can be explained as a consequence Flight 11's impact and in one case the collapse of WTC 2.

we shall see

(a)Sound of explosion
Aircraft impact, jet fuel deflagration, falling debris and bodies.

it cannot possibly be ALL three!

(a) vibrations from the imapct travel at the speed of sound, (b) the fireball you now claim takes 13-15 seconds to reach basment and (c) the falling debris takes 10 seconds.

the sound of the explosion was accompanied by dust and intense heat that burnt Felipe's skin off. neither (a) or (c) could possibly account for the burn injuries recieved by Felipe David. (b) is also impossible because the first basement explosion occured BELOW car 50 thus the fireball would of having to pass car 50 undetected (impossible) and was not traveling fast enough to reach B1 before car 50.

(b) Smoke
Jet fuel deflagration(fireballs), fire, dust from debris like concrete and gypsum wall board falling down the elevator shafts from the impact zone.

smoke was there before Car 50 arrived. this fact rules out the fireball. the dust from debris you argued before in post 353 and i responded in post 354. concrete and gypsum dont turn into "smoke".

(c)Glass blown out
Over pressure from jet fuel deflagration. An over pressure of 1 PSI is more than enough.

i agree. but that does not rule out other possibilities

(d) Building shaking
Aircraft impact and impact of heavy debris.

i agree but the impact causing the building to shake in B1 and B4 is very unlikely.

(e) Elevador door blown up
Over pressure from jet fuel deflagration. Just calculate what load a 1 PSI, 2 PSI, 3 PSI, 4 PSI or 5 PSI over pressure amounts to on a given door surface. Or was this your literal interpretation of Marlene Cruz's use of the phrase "blown up"?

i agree such damage is consistent with the above but that does not rule out other possibilities.

(f) Walls blown rubble
Over pressure from jet fuel deflagration. A cinderblock wall similar to the walls found in basement of WTC 1 collapses from a over pressure of 2-3 PSI.

the fireball that did travel down to B4 level was not powerful enough to rubble the walls. presumably the walls were rubbled in the first basment explosion and this occured BELOW car 50 BEFORE it reached B1. thus whatever rubbled the walls was not a fireball.

(g) 3+ consecutive walls blown down
Over pressure from jet fuel deflagration. We are on B4 here. The deflagration of the remaining jet fuel in the fireballs when it was forced out of the elevator shafts on B4 and mixing with air, would rapidly increase the pressure in the confined space on that level. The pressure increase would press on all surfaces in any direction. If the pressure is higher than what a wall can withstand it will fail. If the pressure still is to high, or continues to increase due to the deflagration, after expanding into the new space it will fail the next wall to and so on.

ALL deflagrations ALWAYS follow the path of least resistance. whatever destroyed three consecutive walls did not follow the path of least resistance therefore it was not a deflagration.

(h) 300pound steel fire door crumbled up Se (e).

i disagree a steel FIRE door would be crumbled up like aluminium foil from a ball-of-FIRE.

(i)Steel beams blown apart
This was the example of Bill Pekrol. He or the person writing the story is mistaken. It was steel beams from the collapse of WTC 2 and not jet fuel exploding in the elevator shafts in the ground lobby of WTC 1. The timeframe of his story indicates clearly that he arrived in the Lobby when WTC 2 collapsed. Any way it did not occur at the time of Flight 11's impact.

Here is the testimony in question.

Bill climbed down all 72 floors but when he arrived in the lobby of the Tower, 20 elevators exploded from the plane’s jet fuel... the noise was horrendous and the tower was beginning to collapse. Bill sustained fuel burns on the dorsal sides of both hands and suffered three skull fractures, a crushed knee, a broken jaw, burned corneas, and a lacerated abdomen that required 200 stitches to close. His injuries were sustained from steel beams that were blowing apart. Later, Bill was told that he was brought out of the North Tower unconscious and less than five minutes before it collapsed.

you say that these injuries were caused by the collapse of WTC 2. but the collapse of WTC 2 cannot account for the burn injuries.

(j) Clothes blown off
No they were burned off by the jet fuel fireballs that enveloped them.

or they were burnt off by fireballs produced by explosives?

(k) People running and screaming
Of course people would by running and screaming when an aircraft hits the building they are inside and jet fuel fireballs travels down the elevator shafts.

they were in the basement B2-3. They had no idea a plane struck the building. most likely they experienced the first explosion which cannot be explained by a fireball

(l) People thrown to the floor
Building shaking from the aircraft impact or over pressure caused by jet fuel deflagration. Later would force air out of elevator shafts and rooms at high speed throwing them to the floor.

cannot be both. vibrations from plane impact travels at speed of sound. fireball took at least 13 seconds to reach basement. Phillip Morelli was thrown to the floor by the first explosion , the first explosion occured BEFORE car 50 reached B1, we know that because philip morelli heard car 50 falling AFTER he was thrown to the ground by the explosion.

(m) Skin burnt off
See (j).

felipe david was burnt by whateevr produced the first explosion which cannot be explained by a jet fuel fireball.

Body parts blown off
Cut off by breaking glass or falling debris.

i disagree.

(o) Pile of dead bodies
That was the pile of dead bodies in front of the elevators in ground Lobby of WTC 1. They were burned to death by the jet fuel fireballs.

THRESHOLD FOR FATALITIES: 35 PSI
50% FATALITIES: 50 PSI
99 FATALITIES: 99 PSI

source :http://www.firenuggets.com/dunn5.htm

max psi of a deflagration = 5 psi.

In other words there is no need for the thewholesoul's fantasy bombs to explain this.

1. all of the above can be explained by explosives.

peace

 

[Jonnyclueless]

I'm telling you, someone should have talk to those WTC designers about only making one elevator shaft in the entire building.

 

[phunk]

i agree but the impact causing the building to shake in B1 and B4 is very unlikely.

I personally know people who felt it in the subway station.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

I personally know people who felt it in the subway station.

My sister was one of them (1st plane hit). She got to actually see the 2nd plane hit since the subway was closed down (power went out). I'll have to ask her how she feels about no planers.

When the towers collapsed, you could feel it in NJ. I think a lot of these twoofers just don't understand explosions very well. But the whole rain drops in Brazil seems to be nailed.

 

[thewholesoul]

I personally know people who felt it in the subway station.

how do you know it wasnt the explosion in the basment he felt?

peace

 

[stateofgrace]

how do you know it wasnt the explosion in the basment he felt?

peace

This is all very interesting but how,exactly, did these explosions in the basement cause a top down demolition?

 

[thewholesoul]

Sorry, this part of the discussion with the jet fuel dispersion isn't a fiueld I'm knowledgeable in, so I usually stay out of this... Just a few comments regarding a recernt post here:


But they were powerful enough to sever elevator shafts from above?
They were so powerful that significan;t damage (IE, doors knocked off frames, marble walls fracturing, ceiling tiles and mechanical equipment was knocked out of place globally?




Several thousand people were inside the towers dispersed throughout the levels, and not one reported a ruptured ear drum? Not even the persons in the basement?



I also covered that in post #380
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3753377&postcount=380

If you don't remember...



I guess I need to re clue you in:
(a) Sound of explosion
(b) Smoke
--- All associated with the plane impacts and debris striking the ground. Elevators falling down the shafts after some were severed by the impact a thousand ft above.


(c) Glass blown out
(d) Building shaking
(e) Elevador door blown up
(f) Walls blown rubble
(g) 3+ consecutive walls blown down
(h) 300pound steel fire door crumbled up
(i) Steel beams blown apart
-- all are side effects of the building flexing from the impact. As the eye witness accounts I gave in post 380 imply. Doors popped out of their frames, walls broke in jagged patterns.

You should read the testimony of Brian Clark: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/above.html

He describes the very same effects, your bombs in the basement argument does not explain why this level of damage was observed throughout the building reported by witnesses from the impact floors all the way down to the lobby. They would have to be incredibly powerful to cause global damage of that scale.

(m) Skin burnt off
Body parts blown off
(o) Pile of dead bodies

--- First off, I am assuming not all of the people who lost limbs died.... If that is the case then why are there still no reports of ruptured ear drums or the like? In order to sustain an injury that bad you need to be reasonably close to the explosion of the 'bombs' would you not?

The remainder is explained by the forces involved with the impact it self... people were thrown to the floor through out the towers...

i responded to your post #380 in my post #413. the point made in post 377 is very simple. the maximum psi of a deflagration - the max - is 5psi. now all i did was look in the testimony in gravy's paper "william rodriguez:escapeartist" to identify events or phenomena that cannot be produced by 5psi.

those events were (g) 3+ consecutive walls blown down (h) 300pound steel fire door crumbled up (i) Steel beams blown apart Body parts blown off
(o) Pile of dead bodies.

now here were your explanations in relation to (g) (h) (i) "all are side effects of the building flexing from the impact".

this explanation is inadequate for many reasons but if you simply researched in gravy's paper you would realize that (i) must have occured long after the building swayed.

in relation to and (o) "I am assuming not all of the people who lost limbs died" again if you researched the same paper i found all testimony that i used you would realise that the people who lost limbs were dead. and it seems reasonable to me at least that anything that could blow somones limbs off has the power to burst the ear drums. and you say "The remainder is explained by the forces involved with the impact it self... people were thrown to the floor through out the towers". the impact of a plane doesnt cause piles of dead body in the lobby. i mean this is just common sense.

peace

 

[stateofgrace]

This is all very interesting but how,exactly, did these explosions in the basement cause a top down demolition?

TWS, any chance you may answer this very simple question?

 

[thewholesoul]

TWS, any chance you may answer this very simple question?

i chose not to respond because i recall that you never respond to my questions and because you fail to address my arguments.

i am arguing that the offical fireball hypothesis can not possibly explain the first basement explosion and cannot explain numerous phenomena reproted in the north tower. this means that there were explosives in the basement. your question focuses on the motivation and function behind the explosives in the basement. which is an irrelevant question once the presence of explosives has been established. wouldnt you agree?

if i were to answer your question i would be speculating. but my arguments are based on facts and you are unable to refute my arguments because if you could you would have done so already. wouldnt you agree?

i could naswer you question but even if i couldnt answer your question to your satisfaction that does not refute my arguments. so tell me what is the point in answering your question?

peace

 

[stateofgrace]

i chose not to respond because i recall that you never respond to my questions and because you fail to address my arguments.

i am arguing that the offical fireball hypothesis can not possibly explain the first basement explosion and cannot explain numerous phenomena reproted in the north tower. this means that there were explosives in the basement. your question focuses on the motivation and function behind the explosives in the basement. which is an irrelevant question once the presence of explosives has been established. wouldnt you agree?

if i were to answer your question i would be speculating. but my arguments are based on facts and you are unable to refute my arguments because if you could you would have done so already. wouldnt you agree?

i could naswer you question but even if i couldnt answer your question to your satisfaction that does not refute my arguments. so tell me what is the point in answering your question?

peace

Wrong.

I do not need to agree with anything you say, I do not need to answer a single question you ask. You on the other hand are offering an alternative version of events,so explain them fully.

How do explosions in the basements of the buildings contribute to a top down demolition? It is a very simply question and one you have failed to answer , just like the other question I asked you.

How does molten metal, found weeks after the collapse of the towers further the theory that a controlled demolition took place?

Your answer then was "you do not know and you do not care" and then to put me on ignore.

So,are you now putting forward the same answer?

You do not know and you do not care?

 

[bio]

Wrong.

I do not need to agree with anything you say, I do not need to answer a single question you ask. You on the other hand are offering an alternative version of events,so explain them fully.

How do explosions in the basements of the buildings contribute to a top down demolition? It is a very simply question and one you have failed to answer , just like the other question I asked you. (...)

Why are you so nasty?

... to your question:

The SCC in the 22. floor was destroyed by the fireball (!), but had a back-up, the Operations Control Center (OCC) in the underground:

"A new operations center (OCC) will contain backup for the security command center (SCC), and the security command center will contain backup for operations center functions, including alarms, intercoms and elevator controls. Remote processors for access control and alarms at the parking garages, and workstations at the guard booths, parking office, visitor centers and security command center and other areas, are connected to a main, redundant file server."

Both Centers were not operable on 9/11.

For the top-down demolition itself, it was not necessary. But it was necessary to hinder the fireman from their work and to cover up the plot.

from http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=18745

"From other sources we know that the OCC wasn't directly affected from the explosions like the SCC.

Look again at this quote from transcript 37 we already used before:

WTCCH. 09 - POLICE DESK - 3541 CENTER
SEPTEMBER 11,2001
WORLD TRADE CENTER - CH. 09
POLICE DESK - 3541 - CENTER
DURATION: 1.25 HOURS

PAPD OFFICER MAGGETT: Port Authority Police, Officer Maggett.
ED CALDERONE - OCC: Maggett, this is Ed at the OCC. I got word that there's an explosion down on B-4. We got people hurt down there, B-4.
PAPD OFFICER MAGGETT: B-4?

(...)

That the OCC wasn't directly affected is also confirmed by this report of which we can conclude of that the CCTV still functioned in the OCC. Note also this statement from the report:

When the first plane hit, Compas was in his office on the basement level of the hotel. "It sounded to me as if there were three loud bangs and then the building shook," he says.

Interestingly, he experienced three loud bangs and then the building shock. As the building shock due to the plane impact, shouldn't the bangs, travelling with the sound of speed, be heared after the building shock?

Note that Compas left the OCC after the first plane hit, Ed Calderone left also the OCC for helping people, same as Douglas Karpiloff who was last time seen in the OCC, before he went out to help people.

And from William Rodriguez we know, that the OCC wasn't even manned when he was there, before the second plane hit:

I find water all over, run straight to the south tower where they have the OCC (operation control center) that was created after 1993. They spent $155 million to retrofit the building, and to supposedly straighten it out after the 1993 bombing, and to set up a whole security system, the control center. When I got there and started hitting the window there was nobody there. There was nobody there—the control center, where they have all the cameras, and the recordings. (Source)

Indeed, from the 9/11 Commission Hearings we also know that the OCC didn't play an important role in the firefighting and rescue efforts. The NIST "Emergency Response Operations Report" only mentions the OCC twice relating to the emergency response:

* A building Fire Safety Director spoke with one of the FDNY Chiefs about the possibility of using elevator phones for communication with the building's Operation Command Center (OCC). This person and a FDNY Battakion Chief were dispatched to go and check it out. These men were never seen again. (NIST NCSTAR1-8, p.46)

* 8:58:04 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X- "What elevators are running in Building number One?"...(?)...OCC...(?)... "S2 to all security guards, hold your posts. Don't allow people in...(?).... Do not allow anyone into the courtyard of any ...(?).... leading into the.....(?)...copy?" (NIST NCSTAR1-8, p.200)

According to NIST, the OCC had also access to the electronically controlled doors:

The first door to access the stairwell to the roof was protected by an acess card reader. Upon opening the first door, the individual would enter a vestibule where, upon showing ID to a closed-circuit television monitored at the Operations Control Center (OCC), the door would be electronically unlocked from the OCC. (NIST NCSTAR 1-7, p.41)

So this means that also the OCC was affected by the explosions as it had lost control over the electronically accessible doors.

(It should be noted that the NIST confused the location of the OCC, "The Operation Control Center was located in the B1 Level of WTC 1 and was a backup Fire Command Center." (NIST NCSTAR 1-7, p.39). This would of course suggest that the WTC1 basement explosions did not produce severe damage when the nearby OCC wasn't even affected. The NIST makes this error only in Draft 7, in Draft 8 the location is given correct: "A new Operations Control Center with the capability to monitor all HVAC systems and elevators in both towers was constructed on the B1 level of WTC2" (NIST NCSTAR 1-8 , p.17) )

From this NIST-figure we can conclude that also the control over the HVAC system was lost.

Smoke (dark grey) in almost all floors of the tower indicates that the HVAC system controls were inoperable.

HVAC systems that are not shot down during a fire, or are set in a mode that re-circulates air through the building, may directly cause smoke spread through the building. (NIST NCSTAR1-4 ,p.70)

Of course smoke on almost all floors interferes the emergency efforts in a negative way and slows down the firefighting attempts.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Why are you so nasty?

... to your question:

The SCC in the 22. floor was destroyed by the fireball (!), but had a back-up, the Operations Control Center (OCC) in the underground:

"A new operations center (OCC) will contain backup for the security command center (SCC), and the security command center will contain backup for operations center functions, including alarms, intercoms and elevator controls. Remote processors for access control and alarms at the parking garages, and workstations at the guard booths, parking office, visitor centers and security command center and other areas, are connected to a main, redundant file server."

Both Centers were not operable on 9/11.

For the top-down demolition itself, it was not necessary. But it was necessary to hinder the fireman from their work and to cover up the plot.

from http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=18745

"From other sources we know that the OCC wasn't directly affected from the explosions like the SCC.

Look again at this quote from transcript 37 we already used before:

WTCCH. 09 - POLICE DESK - 3541 CENTER
SEPTEMBER 11,2001
WORLD TRADE CENTER - CH. 09
POLICE DESK - 3541 - CENTER
DURATION: 1.25 HOURS

PAPD OFFICER MAGGETT: Port Authority Police, Officer Maggett.
ED CALDERONE - OCC: Maggett, this is Ed at the OCC. I got word that there's an explosion down on B-4. We got people hurt down there, B-4.
PAPD OFFICER MAGGETT: B-4?

(...)

That the OCC wasn't directly affected is also confirmed by this report of which we can conclude of that the CCTV still functioned in the OCC. Note also this statement from the report:

When the first plane hit, Compas was in his office on the basement level of the hotel. "It sounded to me as if there were three loud bangs and then the building shook," he says.

Interestingly, he experienced three loud bangs and then the building shock. As the building shock due to the plane impact, shouldn't the bangs, travelling with the sound of speed, be heared after the building shock?

Note that Compas left the OCC after the first plane hit, Ed Calderone left also the OCC for helping people, same as Douglas Karpiloff who was last time seen in the OCC, before he went out to help people.

And from William Rodriguez we know, that the OCC wasn't even manned when he was there, before the second plane hit:

I find water all over, run straight to the south tower where they have the OCC (operation control center) that was created after 1993. They spent $155 million to retrofit the building, and to supposedly straighten it out after the 1993 bombing, and to set up a whole security system, the control center. When I got there and started hitting the window there was nobody there. There was nobody there—the control center, where they have all the cameras, and the recordings. (Source)

Indeed, from the 9/11 Commission Hearings we also know that the OCC didn't play an important role in the firefighting and rescue efforts. The NIST "Emergency Response Operations Report" only mentions the OCC twice relating to the emergency response:

* A building Fire Safety Director spoke with one of the FDNY Chiefs about the possibility of using elevator phones for communication with the building's Operation Command Center (OCC). This person and a FDNY Battakion Chief were dispatched to go and check it out. These men were never seen again. (NIST NCSTAR1-8, p.46)

* 8:58:04 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X- "What elevators are running in Building number One?"...(?)...OCC...(?)... "S2 to all security guards, hold your posts. Don't allow people in...(?).... Do not allow anyone into the courtyard of any ...(?).... leading into the.....(?)...copy?" (NIST NCSTAR1-8, p.200)

According to NIST, the OCC had also access to the electronically controlled doors:

The first door to access the stairwell to the roof was protected by an acess card reader. Upon opening the first door, the individual would enter a vestibule where, upon showing ID to a closed-circuit television monitored at the Operations Control Center (OCC), the door would be electronically unlocked from the OCC. (NIST NCSTAR 1-7, p.41)

So this means that also the OCC was affected by the explosions as it had lost control over the electronically accessible doors.

(It should be noted that the NIST confused the location of the OCC, "The Operation Control Center was located in the B1 Level of WTC 1 and was a backup Fire Command Center." (NIST NCSTAR 1-7, p.39). This would of course suggest that the WTC1 basement explosions did not produce severe damage when the nearby OCC wasn't even affected. The NIST makes this error only in Draft 7, in Draft 8 the location is given correct: "A new Operations Control Center with the capability to monitor all HVAC systems and elevators in both towers was constructed on the B1 level of WTC2" (NIST NCSTAR 1-8 , p.17) )

From this NIST-figure we can conclude that also the control over the HVAC system was lost.

Smoke (dark grey) in almost all floors of the tower indicates that the HVAC system controls were inoperable.

HVAC systems that are not shot down during a fire, or are set in a mode that re-circulates air through the building, may directly cause smoke spread through the building. (NIST NCSTAR1-4 ,p.70)

Of course smoke on almost all floors interferes the emergency efforts in a negative way and slows down the firefighting attempts.

 

[stateofgrace]

Why are you so nasty?

... to your question:

The SCC in the 22. floor was destroyed by the fireball (!), but had a back-up, the Operations Control Center (OCC) in the underground:

"A new operations center (OCC) will contain backup for the security command center (SCC), and the security command center will contain backup for operations center functions, including alarms, intercoms and elevator controls. Remote processors for access control and alarms at the parking garages, and workstations at the guard booths, parking office, visitor centers and security command center and other areas, are connected to a main, redundant file server."

Both Centers were not operable on 9/11.

For the top-down demolition itself, it was not necessary. But it was necessary to hinder the fireman from their work and to cover up the plot.

from http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=18745

"From other sources we know that the OCC wasn't directly affected from the explosions like the SCC.

Look again at this quote from transcript 37 we already used before:

WTCCH. 09 - POLICE DESK - 3541 CENTER
SEPTEMBER 11,2001
WORLD TRADE CENTER - CH. 09
POLICE DESK - 3541 - CENTER
DURATION: 1.25 HOURS

PAPD OFFICER MAGGETT: Port Authority Police, Officer Maggett.
ED CALDERONE - OCC: Maggett, this is Ed at the OCC. I got word that there's an explosion down on B-4. We got people hurt down there, B-4.
PAPD OFFICER MAGGETT: B-4?

(...)

That the OCC wasn't directly affected is also confirmed by this report of which we can conclude of that the CCTV still functioned in the OCC. Note also this statement from the report:

When the first plane hit, Compas was in his office on the basement level of the hotel. "It sounded to me as if there were three loud bangs and then the building shook," he says.

Interestingly, he experienced three loud bangs and then the building shock. As the building shock due to the plane impact, shouldn't the bangs, travelling with the sound of speed, be heared after the building shock?

Note that Compas left the OCC after the first plane hit, Ed Calderone left also the OCC for helping people, same as Douglas Karpiloff who was last time seen in the OCC, before he went out to help people.

And from William Rodriguez we know, that the OCC wasn't even manned when he was there, before the second plane hit:

I find water all over, run straight to the south tower where they have the OCC (operation control center) that was created after 1993. They spent $155 million to retrofit the building, and to supposedly straighten it out after the 1993 bombing, and to set up a whole security system, the control center. When I got there and started hitting the window there was nobody there. There was nobody there—the control center, where they have all the cameras, and the recordings. (Source)

Indeed, from the 9/11 Commission Hearings we also know that the OCC didn't play an important role in the firefighting and rescue efforts. The NIST "Emergency Response Operations Report" only mentions the OCC twice relating to the emergency response:

* A building Fire Safety Director spoke with one of the FDNY Chiefs about the possibility of using elevator phones for communication with the building's Operation Command Center (OCC). This person and a FDNY Battakion Chief were dispatched to go and check it out. These men were never seen again. (NIST NCSTAR1-8, p.46)

* 8:58:04 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X- "What elevators are running in Building number One?"...(?)...OCC...(?)... "S2 to all security guards, hold your posts. Don't allow people in...(?).... Do not allow anyone into the courtyard of any ...(?).... leading into the.....(?)...copy?" (NIST NCSTAR1-8, p.200)

According to NIST, the OCC had also access to the electronically controlled doors:

The first door to access the stairwell to the roof was protected by an acess card reader. Upon opening the first door, the individual would enter a vestibule where, upon showing ID to a closed-circuit television monitored at the Operations Control Center (OCC), the door would be electronically unlocked from the OCC. (NIST NCSTAR 1-7, p.41)

So this means that also the OCC was affected by the explosions as it had lost control over the electronically accessible doors.

(It should be noted that the NIST confused the location of the OCC, "The Operation Control Center was located in the B1 Level of WTC 1 and was a backup Fire Command Center." (NIST NCSTAR 1-7, p.39). This would of course suggest that the WTC1 basement explosions did not produce severe damage when the nearby OCC wasn't even affected. The NIST makes this error only in Draft 7, in Draft 8 the location is given correct: "A new Operations Control Center with the capability to monitor all HVAC systems and elevators in both towers was constructed on the B1 level of WTC2" (NIST NCSTAR 1-8 , p.17) )

From this NIST-figure we can conclude that also the control over the HVAC system was lost.

Smoke (dark grey) in almost all floors of the tower indicates that the HVAC system controls were inoperable.

HVAC systems that are not shot down during a fire, or are set in a mode that re-circulates air through the building, may directly cause smoke spread through the building. (NIST NCSTAR1-4 ,p.70)

Of course smoke on almost all floors interferes the emergency efforts in a negative way and slows down the firefighting attempts.

You are joking, right? Is this meant to be a serious answer or are you just having a laugh here?

You are seriously suggesting that the nasty perps set off explosives in the basements of the towers in order to hinder the fire fighting operation? Seriously?

They went to all the trouble of rigging each tower for controlled demolition, let planes slam into them and decide just for good measures to set of bombs in the basement because they were concerned about the fire fighting operation?

What, bloody difference was the fire fighting operation going to make when the buildings were already wired for demolition? Zero difference.

WTC 2 was blown up; some 55 minutes after flight 175 hit it. Blown up by nasty evil preps, according to you guys. Yet now according to you they also rigged the basement with explosions to hinder the fire fighting operation. Not only that they decided to cover up the plot, that being the buildings were rigged with explosives by setting off explosives in the basement .

Why am I so nasty? I am not nasty, I am simply doing what any single sane person is entitled to and that is ask questions of your ridiculous theories and laugh my head off as you offer more and more absurdities to justify your theories, please do carry on. If you find it hard to answer rational questions with nothing other than laughable speculation, that’s not my problem it is yours.

On top of the two laughing dogs your post as already been given, please accept two more.

 

[bio]

the fires were needed for the official conspiracy theory. Therefore.