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Ed The Truth Movement/JREF Forum Relationship..

Stellafane said:
I don't think we should be nicer to Truthers. Instead, we should do something that, in the long run, would probably be a lot more healthy for them, and for us: Ignore them. Simply stop engaging them altogether. I'd like to see us give it a try, even if only once. The next time some Truther posts yet another piece of demented idiocy in this forum, maybe we can refrain from responding. Just let it die on the vine. Watch it disappear from the forum's front page with nary a blip, with that "0" in the Replies column hanging around its neck like an anchor.
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I would love to see that. Each time I see such a thread I will it to fall off the front page with no replies. But invariably someone will take the bait.
 
I think directing them to Gravy's pages, and a few others (9/11 myths, etc...) is sufficient. The trouble, as others have pointed out, is that we start off with good intentions, but like most humans, with most human behaviour, we resort to the familiar and the easy.

TAM:)
 
gumboot said:
Something I have thought of as a way for this forum to go forward after the Great Truther ExtinctionTM is to turn our efforts to analysing Conspiracy Theorists. Let's face it, this is now one of the ultimate suppositories of Conspiracy Theory behaviour. It has already started with threads such as R.Mackey's recent one about the Irreducible Delusion.

The 9/11 Truth Movement is dead. Let's stop kicking the corpse, throw the sucker on a table, and perform an autopsy.

TAM, you can lead the way... :D
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I think you meant to use the word "repositories" there. In fact, I sincerely hope you meant to.
 
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gumboot said:
Something I have thought of as a way for this forum to go forward after the Great Truther ExtinctionTM is to turn our efforts to analysing Conspiracy Theorists. Let's face it, this is now one of the ultimate suppositories of Conspiracy Theory behaviour. It has already started with threads such as R.Mackey's recent one about the Irreducible Delusion.

The 9/11 Truth Movement is dead. Let's stop kicking the corpse, throw the sucker on a table, and perform an autopsy.

TAM, you can lead the way... :D
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Do you really mean the bolded word, or did you mean "repositories", seeing where the twoofers get their ideas from, it could be intentional. :D
 
jhunter1163 said:
I think you meant to use the word "repositories" there. In fact, I sincerely hope you meant to.
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Lensman said:
Do you really mean the bolded word, or did you mean "repositories", seeing where the twoofers get their ideas from, it could be intentional. :D
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Heh. Perhaps he just wants to tell them to go and stick their conspiracy theories.
 
jhunter1163 said:
I think you meant to use the word "repositories" there. In fact, I sincerely hope you meant to.
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Lensman said:
Do you really mean the bolded word, or did you mean "repositories", seeing where the twoofers get their ideas from, it could be intentional. :D
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Oh, Gawd, I didn't catch that the first time I read it.

But now... thanks to you guys, I got this image in my head of a huge, watermelon-sized pill with the phrase "Conspiracy Theory behaviour" on the side. Thanks a lot! Grrrrrr!!!!...
123864877beae15535.gif
 
To the OP, I admit, I have mixed feelings about this. I rarely participate in these threads, but often read them. To expand upon T.A.M.'s point, this really is a community, and one that has developed over a number of years. To shut it down would deprive some people of that. I not only enjoy reading the technical and logical posters (such as Newton's Bit, gumboot, and R. Mackey to name but a few), but also the emotional (pomeroo, Alt+F4, and Stellafane come to mind) and often times humorous ones (Hi Drudgewire! You do have a fan!). There are a number of people here who I interact with in other sub-fora as well that I would consider friends, even though I have never met them in person (ElMondoHummus, JimBenArm, and Myriad are some examples). I know I am leaving off more people in this post than I could list, even if I spent the next 2 hours doing so. Obviously, this is not the only community to which I belong, but it is one I would regret losing.

Even though the arguments are getting more and more recycled, there are times where I do learn something new, or get a chance to look at old data in a new way. The thread on "Was Ground Zero Flat?" was one such opportunity, since I am rarely able to use my area of expertise in 9/11 discussions. The thread on "Irreducible Delusion" is another example. I would be saddened to lose such opportunities.

Finally, and on a more important note, if you go to the menus at the top of the screen, choose Quick Links, then Who's Online, you will see that the number of Guests is often greater than the number of Members. A relatively large percentage of those Guests are reading threads in the 9/11 CT sub-forum. Generally the Guests in 9/11 CT far outnumber those in, say, Politics or Religion. I know people often refer to "The Lurkers" when talking about why they continue to participate in these discussions, but to see them quantified like that can be rather surprising.

So in the end, there is good, there is bad, there is ugly. An on-line community is pretty much the same as any other relationship or part of life, and one can learn to embrace the variety.
 
SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
It would seem the majority of 'Truthers' are devoting their efforts to attempting to debunk 'Debunkers'. Consider CIT; it would seem for the past few months their biggest focus has not been getting their 'irrefutable' evidence out to the people/legal system, etc, but on attempting to discredit/prove wrong Reheat, or any other 'Debunker' who questions them. Why? Why does Reheat's opinion matter so much to these people? If they have the courage of their beliefs, then surely they should ignore the 'Debunkers' and press on with this crucial information.
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I think that there may be a good reason for this behaviour. The truthers see themselves - in fact, there seems no other way they can possibly see themselves - as the clear-sighted skeptics who have rejected an implausible story and made their own decision on the basis of the evidence. We are the one group of people whom they should be able to convince of their point of view if there's any merit to it whatsoever, because skepticism is at the heart of debunking. The fact that we continually reject their theories, which in their minds are soundly reasoned and irrefutable, must be terribly confusing to them. That, I think, is why, for example, we are referred to as pseudo-skeptics, and why Griffin tries to turn our own approach back on us in "Debunking 9-11 Debunking". The fact that a group of skeptics continues to disagree with the truthers is a thorn in their flesh, because in their world view it's utterly inexplicable. Hence they keep on coming back here and arguing, getting ever more frustrated, and eventually in many cases losing control of their emotions and getting themselves banned. Our very existence is an contradiction to them, one that they both must, and yet cannot, reconcile.

Dave
 
Dave Rogers said:
I think that there may be a good reason for this behaviour. The truthers see themselves - in fact, there seems no other way they can possibly see themselves - as the clear-sighted skeptics who have rejected an implausible story and made their own decision on the basis of the evidence.
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This is something that should be kept in mind in many of the cases when dealing with conspiracy theories. Michael Shermer talks about this in the intro to his book "Why People Believe Weird Things" Amazon Link, where he points out that some of the weird things people believe are a case of them attempting to apply skepticism. A 9/11 conspiracy theorist may very well be playing the part of a skeptic in his (or her) own perspective, and those who are disagreeing can easily be viewed in much the same way that many here have expressed about truthers. That doesn't justify many of the logical leaps performed, nor does it mean that all conspiracy theorists are operating from such a mental perspective, but I think it changes the dynamic of the conversation.

In fact, some of the conversations here strike me as odd. People go from zero to labeled kook truther whackjob in short order around here, and while sometimes it's an accurate assessment I think it's applied a bit too liberally (as in too often, not too politically). The best way for someone who honestly believes they are skeptical to give up illogical ideas is to appeal to that person's logic and let them come to the conclusion.
 
SatansMaleVoiceChoir said:
I put this down to boredom. There is nowhere left for 'Truthers' to go; no new evidence and no new ideas, so certain members of the forum who miss the debate/battle/war of wits (call it what you want!) are becoming more desperate in their attempts to keep this sub-forum alive.
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gumboot said:
However your advice leads to a cessation of debate and eventually a dying off of the subforum. It seems a bit problematic to me - you write a detailed analysis concluding "you guys need X" and then finish off with a rather brazen "you should give up X".

I've seen lots of calls for this sort of withdrawal from debate, but this is a rare post that has identified the cause of such perpetuating and confrontational posting. Surely, acknowledging the cause of it, you can see that simply calling for it to change won't achieve anything.

How exactly are posters supposed to simply give up something that you have identified as a serious need? I think this is why such calls before for civility etc. have always fallen on death ears. Like getting out on the street to drug addicts and declaring "you have to give up drugs".
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In this case the answer is very simple - use different drugs. The simple fact is that 9/11 is a dead issue. Pretty much everything about it has been discussed to death, and the only people left here who deny reality are either trolls, sock puppets or mentally unstable. No matter what your reasons are for coming here, there is no reason to do so any more, since every new questions is just a repeat of an old one, occasionally trying to disguise itself as something else.

However, the point, that has been mentioned many times before, is that this is not the only section of the forum, and there is absolutely no reason to behave as if it is. If it's the sense of community you want, there's the community section. If you want to discuss other conspiracies, there's the conspiracy section. If you're interested in general skepticism and debunking, there's the general skepticism and debunking section. And so on. I think there are very few people here who are only interested in 9/11. For those few maybe there is nothing left here, and they should probably call it a day and get on with their lives. However, for everyone else there is still plenty to do, whether it involves skepticism and debunking, general arguments or just being part of the community.

The bizarre truther vs. JREF fued may have been amusing at the start, but beating dead horses can only keep you entertained for so long. If anyone still wants to see a horse being beaten, there are plenty of threads and links around here to show them how, there's really no need to continue beating the poor thing.
 
Cuddles said:
In this case the answer is very simple - use different drugs. The simple fact is that 9/11 is a dead issue. Pretty much everything about it has been discussed to death, and the only people left here who deny reality are either trolls, sock puppets or mentally unstable. No matter what your reasons are for coming here, there is no reason to do so any more, since every new questions is just a repeat of an old one, occasionally trying to disguise itself as something else.

However, the point, that has been mentioned many times before, is that this is not the only section of the forum, and there is absolutely no reason to behave as if it is. If it's the sense of community you want, there's the community section. If you want to discuss other conspiracies, there's the conspiracy section. If you're interested in general skepticism and debunking, there's the general skepticism and debunking section. And so on. I think there are very few people here who are only interested in 9/11. For those few maybe there is nothing left here, and they should probably call it a day and get on with their lives. However, for everyone else there is still plenty to do, whether it involves skepticism and debunking, general arguments or just being part of the community.

The bizarre truther vs. JREF fued may have been amusing at the start, but beating dead horses can only keep you entertained for so long. If anyone still wants to see a horse being beaten, there are plenty of threads and links around here to show them how, there's really no need to continue beating the poor thing.
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All very true. :) I for one have never really enjoyed the "truther Vs JREF" thing, finding it rather odd, and have despaired at the increasing number of threads that amount to "look what the truthers are doing!". I mean, the Stundies are amusing, sure, but if I want to know what's going on at the Loose Change Forum or something I'd go sign up and find out.
 
gumboot said:
All very true. :) I for one have never really enjoyed the "truther Vs JREF" thing, finding it rather odd, and have despaired at the increasing number of threads that amount to "look what the truthers are doing!". I mean, the Stundies are amusing, sure, but if I want to know what's going on at the Loose Change Forum or something I'd go sign up and find out.
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Did you see the latest thing the truthers are doing?
 
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