Skepticism and Evolution

Really? In what way? Inquiring minds want to know.

My guess: I never said I was a creationist, but the mean old skeptics called me one anyway when I posted baseless skepticism of evolution. Therefore, skeptics are a bunch of biased meanies.
 
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...this thread is an experiment.

This wasn't a troll thread.

You do realize that these statements are contradictory right?

And I was accused of being a creationist simply for expressing skepticism about something general about Evolution.

You posted a purposefully vague OP and were asked repeatedly in the first replies for details or whether you were just being provocative. You chose not respond to those requests for details. Classic troll OP.
 
This wasn't a troll thread. And I was accused of being a creationist simply for expressing skepticism about something general about Evolution.
Could you please direct me to the post in which you are accused of being a creationist? I've read through this entire thread and I can't seem to find one.
 
This wasn't a troll thread. And I was accused of being a creationist simply for expressing skepticism about something general about Evolution.
You also had quite a few people interested in having a discussion with you - just requiring more detail in order to do so.
The fact that you gave them no such detail led them to speculate, which doesn't seem that surprising.

If I posted I was skeptical about electricity I doubt I'd be called a creationist.
No, but you'd likely elicit similar responses. You wouldn't be called a creationist because creationists usually accept electricity.

The Creationist lable is attached to anyone questioning Evolution.

I'm not posting any more here. I've proven my point though you wish to claim otherwise.
By not posting in this thread anymore and refusing to clarify what you are skeptical about in regards to evolution, all you prove is that they are right to call you a troll - at least as regards this thread.
 
employs critical thinking


Employs critical thinking. Every once in a while I drop in here and am stupified, held aghast, humbled, bowled over . . . . I tell you . . . by the quality of the/your/he/she/does/this/get/mepast/thefilter? the critical thinking you express. Such a waste of e-space/time. Whatamoronuare.con

Does that get me past the filter?
 
This wasn't a troll thread. And I was accused of being a creationist simply for expressing skepticism about something general about Evolution.
You acted like a troll and was treated like one. Your broad unjustified statement was criticized appropriately.
If I posted I was skeptical about electricity I doubt I'd be called a creationist.
But then Creationist believe in electricity. If you had posted that that you were skeptical of the Big Bang or star formation, then you increase the probability of being a Creationist.
The Creationist lable is attached to anyone questioning Evolution.
Untrue. It gets attached to people who act like a Creationists.
You didn't question Evolution, you trolled for a reaction and got it.
I'm not posting any more here. I've proven my point though you wish to claim otherwise.
No you didn't. You have anecdotally proven that making broad unjustified statements in a skeptics forum gets criticized and justifiably so.
 
The Plumjam Purposefylly Unanswered Question List
1)Question from Joobz: "if you wish to claim that macroevolution is impossible and therefore TOE is impossible, we MUST define what it means to be macroevolution. Otherwise, all you are doing is creating an illusion and using that illusion to disprove evolution."
2)Question from MattusMaximus: "That is, you have made numerous insinuations that there is a vast, atheistic conspiracy to purge academia of theists who do not cater to what you call "Darwinist dogma". Please provide solid evidence of this claim - naming one specific case will do..."
3)Define the limits of these variations and the mechanism that prevents these variations from becoming larger over time.
4)Please present a valid alternative to Evolution that is testable and falsifiable.
5)Questions from Joobz: "what is macro-evolution? Is it similar to blahblahpoopydoop?"
 
If you don't believe there are limits perhaps you should go and breed a completely new and viable life-form from a "previous" life-form. Maybe start with a kind of plant, and end up with a worm or a stick insect of your own creation. The Nobel Prizes are awaiting you.
In the TOE, there is supposed to be enormous plasticity, so the above should be possible.
Of course nothing anything like this is ever achieved. Selective breeding pushes the limits of variation but stays within them.
As to the "mechanism" for these limits.. well you would have to ask the geneticists about that. But I don't think they really have any idea yet.
The answer, I reckon, will be due to informational constraints.
...snip...
plumjam, you question is very vague. Perhaps you can define what you mean by "completely new" and "viable" and even "life-form".

Can you also cite the published papers that establish the "limits of variation"? Is the limit 1 mutation, 1 million mutations, 1 billion mutations or higher? Is it a length of time?

Which geneticists did you ask about the "mechanism" for these limits?
 
Note to lurkers, observe PJ's last post carefully...

1. more (unjustified) criticism of evolutionary science,

2. no response to the criticism of his claims about speciation / no reference to the links I provided,

and

3. a curious ignoring of my direct challenge to him at the end of my previous post.

Watch this thread for more of the same...

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? :rolleyes:
Hear here!

Attrition through assertion.
 
Hi Truethat! Thanks for the other discussion as well, any particular aspect that you are sceptical of in the theory of natural selection?

After all there is consisderable debate and scepticism in the field itself.

Gosh you seem to have triggered an avalanche.
 
I've no idea whether plate tectonics is a very accurate theory or not.

Yet you are an expert on Evolution??????:confused:

Here's a quote from Malcolm Muggeridge which pretty much sums up my view on the matter:

""I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially to the extent that it's been applied, will be one of the greatest jokes in the history books of the future. Posterity will marvel that so flimsy and dubious a hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity that it has."

"I have made up my mind. Do not confuse me with the facts."
 
If you don't believe there are limits perhaps you should go and breed a completely new and viable life-form from a "previous" life-form. Maybe start with a kind of plant, and end up with a worm or a stick insect of your own creation. The Nobel Prizes are awaiting you.
In the TOE, there is supposed to be enormous plasticity, so the above should be possible.
Of course nothing anything like this is ever achieved. Selective breeding pushes the limits of variation but stays within them.
As to the "mechanism" for these limits.. well you would have to ask the geneticists about that. But I don't think they really have any idea yet.
The answer, I reckon, will be due to informational constraints.

Say I have a Shakespeare sonnet. No random changing of its letters is going to turn that sonnet into a 3 hour long play, or a 400 page novel, or a telephone directory, or a haiku poem. Also, the likelihood of random changes to the letters over an extended period improving the effectiveness of the Shakespeare sonnet, as meaningful and beautiful poetry, would be so vanishingly improbable that a man would need to be irrational to believe that such a process is essentially what lies at the heart of the enormous diversity and complexity of life.

In biology if you try to randomly change the global organisation of the genetic information by, for example, changing the number of chromosomes ,you get a deleterious, often fatal, consequence to the organism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneuploidy
In the analogy, this could be one example of trying to turn a sonnet into a play. It just doesn't work, and is typically damaging.
[/QUOTE]

Evolution by Natural Selection has done what you asked. "Slime" >> hundreds of millions of years >> natural selection >> plum jam. You claim this is not possible because of the "limits of variation". What are these "limits? Please explain the mechanism for them.
 
Evolution by Natural Selection has done what you asked. "Slime" >> hundreds of millions of years >> natural selection >> plum jam. You claim this is not possible because of the "limits of variation". What are these "limits? Please explain the mechanism for them.

I made an effort to answer you.
Now your turn. How did your dead mindless slime produce life?
 
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On the face of it, though, it seems enormously more reasonable than the TOE. This is because plate tectonics describes a mindless physical process producing unremarkable rock formations which are devoid of specified complexity / apparent design. However, if someone were to take me to Mount Rushmore, point to the faces and argue with a straight face that these formations were produced by mindless physical processes such as plate tectonics + erosion then I'd be justified in concluding that this person was pretty irrational.

It's worth noting that I couldn't really prove him wrong. Even if I showed him historical data about the creation of the faces he could always argue that it's a hoax; a myth.
Also, it is not impossible that plate tectonics plus erosion could (given enough time ;) ) 'create' an accurate copy of Mount Rushmore somewhere else in the world. But to believe in that tiny possibility over the possibility of intelligent design, in my opinion, is by far the less rational choice to take.

People here are believing that the many-orders-of-magnitude-more-complex than Mount Rushmore life forms on Earth were first brought into existence and then enormously but blindly developed by mindless physical forces.
Sorry, but it's crazy.

I wonder if plumjam has a magic bucket from which he retrieves horrible analogies that do more to prove our points that his. It would be called the magical backfire bucket.

Here is the backfire to this analogy, plumjam (because I know you aren't capable of spotting it without assistance) -- if plate tectonics plus erosion could create such faces on mountains, then many, many mountains would look something like mount rushmore. And many mountains would be in a partial-rushmore-ish state, with partial faces. And we would have computer models showing exactly how and why geology and wind and water could make faces on mountains.

And, in this rushmore world, there would still be people like you -- insisting that even if the evidence was correct (and it isn't, because of a global conspiracy/joke to convince the population that mountain faces were natural rather than divine) it still doesn't mean anything because god invented mathematics and directs all undirected processes from behind the scenes. And in this rushmore world, people like me would laugh at people like you.
 
Oh, Plummy:
we're still waiting.
The Plumjam Purposefylly Unanswered Question List
1)Question from Joobz: "if you wish to claim that macroevolution is impossible and therefore TOE is impossible, we MUST define what it means to be macroevolution. Otherwise, all you are doing is creating an illusion and using that illusion to disprove evolution."
2)Question from MattusMaximus: "That is, you have made numerous insinuations that there is a vast, atheistic conspiracy to purge academia of theists who do not cater to what you call "Darwinist dogma". Please provide solid evidence of this claim - naming one specific case will do..."
3)Define the limits of these variations and the mechanism that prevents these variations from becoming larger over time.
4)Please present a valid alternative to Evolution that is testable and falsifiable.
5)Questions from Joobz: "what is macro-evolution? Is it similar to blahblahpoopydoop?"
6)In what way does the fossil record contradict evolution? (please, please, please use your prior Creationist list of garbage that we showed to be dishonest misquoted Creationist propaganda)
7)Define "living forms".
 
I made an effort to answer you.
Now your turn. How did your dead mindless slime produce life?

How can 1 produce 9990260982688682986928 ?

Here, I will start you off.

1 + 1 = 2;
2 + 1 = 3;
3 + 1 = 4;

Have fun wasting your time!

In the meantime, mathematicians across the world will be doing something productive, because they don't feel the absurd need to prove specifically that every integer can be produced using zero and the successor function.

In the meantime, biologists across the world will be doing something productive, because they don't feel the absurd need to prove specifically that every species can be produced using basic elements and the mechanisms of natural selection.
 
How can 1 produce 9990260982688682986928 ?

Here, I will start you off.

1 + 1 = 2;
2 + 1 = 3;
3 + 1 = 4;

Have fun wasting your time!

In the meantime, mathematicians across the world will be doing something productive, because they don't feel the absurd need to prove specifically that every integer can be produced using zero and the successor function.

In the meantime, biologists across the world will be doing something productive, because they don't feel the absurd need to prove specifically that every species can be produced using basic elements and the mechanisms of natural selection.

In real life (not your imagination) your 4 would keep reducing to 3. Keep adding 1 for as long as you like. The additions in real life are reversible, so any chance accumulation keeps getting reduced, dissolved.
You'd never get past 10.
 
In real life (not your imagination) your 4 would keep reducing to 3. Keep adding 1 for as long as you like. The additions in real life are reversible, so any chance accumulation keeps getting reduced, dissolved.
You'd never get past 10.
Oh, Plummy:
we're still waiting.
The Plumjam Purposefylly Unanswered Question List
1)Question from Joobz: "if you wish to claim that macroevolution is impossible and therefore TOE is impossible, we MUST define what it means to be macroevolution. Otherwise, all you are doing is creating an illusion and using that illusion to disprove evolution."
2)Question from MattusMaximus: "That is, you have made numerous insinuations that there is a vast, atheistic conspiracy to purge academia of theists who do not cater to what you call "Darwinist dogma". Please provide solid evidence of this claim - naming one specific case will do..."
3)Define the limits of these variations and the mechanism that prevents these variations from becoming larger over time.
4)Please present a valid alternative to Evolution that is testable and falsifiable.
5)Questions from Joobz: "what is macro-evolution? Is it similar to blahblahpoopydoop?"
6)In what way does the fossil record contradict evolution? (please, please, please use your prior Creationist list of garbage that we showed to be dishonest misquoted Creationist propaganda)
7)Define "living forms".


Plumjam's continued non-answer is fascinating.
 
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How can 1 produce 9990260982688682986928 ?

Here, I will start you off.

1 + 1 = 2;
2 + 1 = 3;
3 + 1 = 4;
Obviously, those are examples of micro-addition
I have never seen an example of a 5 becoming 100 or 2324 becoming a 654123245. It is clear that macro-addition is completely impossible and mathematicians are simply deluding themselves with their own dogmatic religion.

As such, intelligent counting is a far more logical explanation. The amazing order the numbers have is only possible by design, and that design was given to us by the great prime numerator.
 

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