Split Thread The Towers should not hve collapsed (split from Gravysites)

WildCat said:
Do you know the amount of ambient light available will skew the observed colors? The film or digital capture device in cameras? The settings of the camera? The settings of your computer monitor? Artifacts of digital compression? Programs used to edit the images?

How did you control for these things?
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Frankly, when one confuses wild speculation with proper scientific observation, no control is necessary.
 
Silly wildcat. Didn't you know that it was molten steel observed pouring out of the building. Of course it was magical heat though that didn't have any effect on the Aluminum, just the steel. I think they call it magical selective heat.
 
van_dutch said:
+1 to what WildCat said.

Where, Dabljuh, did you find that color-temperature scale? The ones I find put yellow/white at 2000F (about 1100C) and these are for steel.
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Lets just use
one of many sources for this information on the internet:

http://www.sizes.com/materls/colors_of_heated_metals.htm
The variation demonstrates how unreliable this method is even in the hands of careful observers.
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Even granted this - the observed bright white-yellowish glow in broad daylight displayed by the substance initially can not, and in no case whatsoever, be a product of the diffuse fire which burns orange hot at best.

*This* is the whole point. An orange fire cannot heat something to yellow hotness. A red fire cannot heat something to orange hotness. A yellow fire cannot heat something to white hotness.

If you understand this, you'll understand that you are in no way refuting this evidence, you are merely protesting it's existence. I don't have the time nor the patience to read the protests of people of lesser intelligence than me. Refute it or be ignored. Stop wasting my time with your silly protests. Here's the evidence. I can explain it the how and the why. All you're doing is demonstrating ignorance and a lack of intelligence.

What if it wasn't steel, as some others pointed out?
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It wasn't steel. Steel would have been solid at the temperature range.
Different materials emit different colors at different temperatures.
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No, they don't. That's the entire point of blackbody radiation. The brightness changes with the emissivity, but the color itself doesn't. Aluminium would be a pale, barely visible yellow glow at 1200 where iron/steel would display a distinctive yellow color. At 800 degrees, iron/steel would be cherry red, while the glow of aluminium would no longer visible other than in a dark room - and it would still be perceptible as a cherry red. The hue of the emitted light doesn't change significantly across materials, only the strength of the light emission. As I've explained before: For Aluminium to be as bright as 1300°C hot iron, it would have to be 2200°C hot - And it would have a slightly different color still.
 
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I'm still waiting.

How was the thermite ignited?

Do you understand the difference between heat and temperature?

For a given combustion reaction, which is a fixed quantity, the heat released or the temperature?
 
Dab, face it, you're a con artist. You have no idea of the colors of the fires inside the building to determine any "facts". Just like you cannot simply look at the color and determine the material makeup. Especially in conditions like on 9/11 where there are so many unknown variables. This is why your whole argument can do nothing more than try to cast dubt rather than an argument that proves your beliefs, which are far more impossible and implausible than the ones you are challenging. This is why you nor any of the rest of the twoof brain trust are able to present any papers to back their claims up. Because once you start using science instead of hearsay, your argument holds no merit.
 
Alferd_Packer said:
I'm still waiting.

How was the thermite ignited?

Do you understand the difference between heat and temperature?

For a given combustion reaction, which is a fixed quantity, the heat released or the temperature?
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I'm guessing he also hasn't done a calculation showing how all the heat in the steel will just magically whisk away.
 
Newtons Bit said:
I'm guessing he also hasn't done a calculation showing how all the heat in the steel will just magically whisk away.
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Excuses, excuses. No one's really arguing about that. No one is interested in that. You're hand waving to divert from the fact that you can't come up with a compelling reason why the observed item is not a thermate substance.

You're being intellectually dishonest again, by the way.
 
Grizzly Bear said:
I see, so you'd even accept thermite without considering how it even ignited.... stundie worthy...
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If thermite was used (and all signs point towards that scenario) you should be worrying who ignited it, not about the trivial details of how it was ignited. You still lack good judgment with regards to what is important.
 
Dabljuh said:
If thermite was used (and all signs point towards that scenario) you should be worrying who ignited it, not about the trivial details of how it was ignited. You still lack good judgment with regards to what is important.
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Considering you need the equivalent of a blow torch just to ignite it, I'd be more inclined to believe that pixies exist.... of course my sense of humor is awfully rusty

ETA, are there any remote-controlled torches, with magnesium fuses? Interesting get up if you're contending remote ignition...
 
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Grizzly Bear said:
Considering you need the equivalent of a blow torch just to ignite it, I'd be more inclined to believe that pixies exist.... of course my sense of humor is awfully rusty
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Oh come on, you can't possibly be this stupid. http://www.instructables.com/id/First-Fire-Mix-The-Thermite-Ignitor/

Right from the anarchist cookbook. Of course, the actual ignition mechanism may have been a different one, but the problem of igniting it there is trivial compared to the problem of getting it there.

Edit: For chrissake, someone described earlier in this thread how you can ignite thermite with a MATCH HEAD (containing phosphorous, burning hot enough)

Do not use personal insults or name-calling to argue your point.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson
 
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How did Dabljuh propose making thermite go perpendicular to gravity instead of straight down?
 
Dabljuh said:
By placing the thermite on the lateral joints of the structural grid. You're embarassing.
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Except you missed the part where the connections are expected failure points in any event... the fact that the structure came apart at the connections for the most part, doesn't prove thermite... sorry...


Dabljuh said:
Oh come on, you can't possibly be this stupid. http://www.instructables.com/id/First-Fire-Mix-The-Thermite-Ignitor/
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I honestly thought sarcasm would be a change of pace, apparently this is too serious a discussion... anyway, I was talking about ignition... for which commercial grade thermite is usually like using a magnesium fuse.


Dabljuh said:
but the problem of igniting it there is trivial compared to the problem of getting it there.
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Dab, that is the most intelligent post you've made today! Kudos!
Now if only the TM could get past that speculation stage!
 
Dabljuh said:
... The phenomenon observed is clearly radiation and not reflection. There is no radiation in the visible range below some 500°C. Unless you're proposing this to be radioactive materials, or possible chemiluminescence (fireflies)
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Wrong.
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From http://members.optushome.com.au/terrybrown/HeatTemperChartEtc.html

This chart shows the colours in the visible range. Note the temperatures down the side. These are the colour metalurgists look for when heating steel.

I know, I know. Now I'm on ignore.



1337m4n said:
I wonder what Dabljuh is going to do once the entire forum is on his Ignore list?
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Newtons Bit said:
Declare victory, obviously.
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Stole the words right out of my mouth.
 
Grizzly Bear said:
Except you missed the part where the connections are expected failure points in any event... the fact that the structure came apart at the connections for the most part, doesn't prove thermite... sorry...
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No, but the evidence of the presence of thermite proves thermite.

I honestly thought sarcasm would be a change of pace, apparently this is too serious a discussion... anyway, I was talking about ignition... for which commercial grade thermite is usually like using a magnesium fuse.
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No, magnesium fuse is what kids use. If you want a remote controlled detonation, you'll use an appropriate priming cap which in turn is ignited by electric current. The fire starter mix is a good option. Alternatively you could probably just strike (mechanically) a needle into a two-phase vial of potassium permanganate* and glycerine.

See, I'm not an expert on thermite, but I really can't see the problem with igniting it when you move out of a kid's back yard.

but the problem of igniting it there is trivial compared to the problem of getting it there.
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Dab, that is the most intelligent post you've made today! Kudos!
Now if only the TM could get past that speculation stage!
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Provided the acknowledged difficulty and the evidence making thermate by a wide margin the most likely scenario, I think we're out of the speculation stage where we ask the IF but instead, the WHO.

By default, the jews are going to get blamed, so we should quickly find someone else instead. Because the jews will kick our asses if we don't.

*Evidence suggesting the presence of massive quantities of potassium permanganate has been found. It's a plausible part (oxidizer) of a thermate mixture. So all you need is a (mechanical) way to bring glycerine into contact with the KMnO4-containing thermate. (Without warranty - I have never done this myself - I'm just interpreting what Failopedia says)
 
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[X] said:
Wrong.
click for image
From http://members.optushome.com.au/terrybrown/HeatTemperChartEtc.html

This chart shows the colours in the visible range. Note the temperatures down the side. These are the colour metalurgists look for when heating steel.

I know, I know. Now I'm on ignore.
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No, but you're on notice. We already had someone just about as 'clever' as you with the same ridiculous argument 10 pages back, and it was very embarassing for the person who brought it forth because it illustrated that the person not only didn't know the basics of blackbody radiation, but also apparently has never heated a steel item past 200°C (Alternatively, it may be that the person has absolutely no idea of the Celsius scale and thinks 200°C is where aluminium melts)

To put it short: No, that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about blackbody radiation due to temperature. I dare you to heat a piece of steel to 200°C and see if it glows yellow.
 
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