USS Liberty

I see. He was on the Liberty, during the attack, and has not only written a book describing, in detail, what went on, researched quite a bit of the signals traffic at higher echelons that added to decisions that left Liberty open to attack, but you don't take his testimony seriously?

'Scuse the hell out of me, brother kook (and happy birthday :D ) but do you also not take seriously the testsimony of the NYPD and NYFD witnesses from 9-11?

You have stood tall and slammed 9-11 troofers, yet when an eyewitness to the attack speaks out, you don't take him seriously?

WTF?

Why do you not take the account of say... the Captain of the Liberty seriously?
 
Why do you not take the account of say... the Captain of the Liberty seriously?


I do take it seriously..Are you aware of how the court of inquiry was held. How few of the ships crew were allowed to testify.

Are you aware the reviewing officer(Adm Staring)after spending several days going over the testimony, wouldnt sign off on it, as i didnt jive with what was actually said.

In other words, the Admiral who first reviewed the inquiry thought it was a whitewash, only a few days after the inquiry.

Are you also aware, the victims families were sent letters stating it was an accident BEFORE the inquiry even convened???????





The Court of Inquiry


Thanks to former crewman Ed Mark, who laboriously hand typed the full text of the Court of Inquiry file, we now have the testimony from that document for visitors to study. The full document contains more than 700 pages including photographs, messages and documents. Testimony accounted for about 170 pages.

As survivors have frequently pointed out, Liberty men were not permitted to speak freely and were directed to reply only to the questions asked. Some men who wished to testify were not permitted to do so. George Golden, who was the second ranking man to survive the attack, was severely limited in the testimony he was permitted to provide. Jim Ennes, who was Officer of the Deck during most of the daylight reconnaissance and could personally testify to the closeness and frequency of overflying aircraft and other key details, provided a sworn statement from his hospital bed, but this statement was not permitted into evidence. Jim's hand-written deck logs for his watch were key evidence, but they were not entered into the record. Instead, they were rewritten and signed by someone else, which is a violation of Navy Regulations.

When you read the "Findings of Fact," look for supporting testimony. Navy Regulations require that all findings of fact be supported by evidence in the record. In this case, such evidence is often absent. For example, where the court finds that the flag may not have been seen by the attacking pilots because it may have hung limp at the mast on a windless day, all the evidence in the record points in the opposite direction, indicating that the flag was clearly displayed in adequate wind to hold it aloft for the pilots to see. The court also had access to and reviewed the Ship's Weather Log which showed that there was ample wind at all times to hold a flag aloft and clearly displayed. Yet the court chose to ignore that log and did not enter it into the record. The careful reader will find numerous other discrepancies in the way the hearing was conducted
 
Counsel for the Court: Excuse me, any time prior to the
attack, did you notice the national colors flying?

[LTJG Watts:] Yes sir. At lunch that day, we were
discussing the situation and Mr. Golden made the statement
that someone had said something about the ensign flying so
the people would know who we were. Mr. Golden made the
statement something like, "Don't we have a bigger flag we
can fly, maybe the holiday colors ?" Then after lunch we
went out on the 01 level forward and most of the officers
were around there sunbathing immediately preceding 1300.
At approximately 1245, an aircraft flew over approximately
5,000 to 8,000 feet, and his line of flight took it over
the radar mast, and I was watching it and made a comment
about it that it looked like a C119 flying boxcar. And as
it flew over the radar mast, the ensign was flying from
the gaff. I noticed that it was flying, at this time
there was a breeze.

Q. Extended?

[LTJG Watson:] Yes sir.
 
Counsel for the Court: Did you have occasion to see the
national colors flying?

[Chief Smith:] Yes sir. At the time I ran out of the
radio central space to the transmitter room.

Q. What time was this?

[Chief Smith:] I would say about 1225, this was about two
minutes either way. And this was Zulu time because I'm
basing it on the log here. I had occasion to look at it
because I was under the impression we were being attacked
by UAR, and I wanted to see, and by the time that report
came down to us from the bridge that they were Israelis, I
wanted to check myself personally to see if our flag was
flying because I couldn't understand it. For some reason
I saw the flag flying at that time. If this was the
original flag or not, I do not know sir. - - -
 
Q. Do you recall the flag or the national ensign flying?

[Ensign Scott:] Yes sir, it was flying. I noticed at
first light that the ensign was flying. I looked up to it
to check the wind direction just in the event I had to
blow tubes and I wanted to have a favorable wind
direction. That's about all I recall about the flag being
up on the day and night while we were over here. I don't
recall seeing it down at all.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[LT. Golden:] Yes sir. At approximately 1145, I
completed eating lunch, and went to the 01 level forward
to sunbathe along with the Captain and some of the other
officers. I have a lounge chair, most of us do have;
while laying on my back sunbathing, I noticed a plane
flying over. I dozed off, and approximately 25 minutes or
so later on, I woke up and saw a plane circling again
coming from the port beam, crossing the ship. While
watching it, I glanced up and noticed it just crossing
over the stack area, and I noticed a small amount of smoke
coming out of my stack, and also the flag was flying.

Counsel for the Court: Was it extended?

[LT. Golden:] Yes sir, there was a slight breeze
blowing.

Q. Where was the flag flying from, Lieutenant GOLDEN?

[LT. Golden:] The foremast.

Q. And It was standing out where it could be seen?

[LT. Golden:] Yes sir. Not completely the full length,
but it was standing out.
 
1351 [LOG:] 3 SMALL SURFACE CONTACTS HELD ON RADAR 32,000
YARDS BEARING 082T - REPORTED TO BRIDGE AS 3 SURFACE
CONTACTS

1424 [LOG:] 3 MTB'S SIGHTED ABAFT STARBOARD 1BEAM DISTANCE
4-5 MILES

[CAPT. McGonagle:] In the latter moments of the air
attack, it was noted that three high speed boats were
approaching the ship from the northeast on a relative
bearing of approximately 135 at a distance of about 15
miles. The ship at the time was still on course 283 true,
speed unknown, but believed to be in excess of five knots.
At no time did the ship stop during the air attack. It is
believed that the time of initial sighting of the torpedo
boats, the time was about 1420. The boats appeared to be
in a wedge type formation with the center boat the lead
point of the wedge. Estimated speed of the boats was
about 27 to 30 knots. They appeared to be about 150 to 200
yards apart.

[CAPT. McGonagle:] It appeared that they were approaching
the ship in a torpedo launch attitude, and since I did not
have direct communication with gun control or the gun
mounts, I told a man from the bridge, whose identity I do
not recall, to proceed to mount 51 and take the boats
under fire.

[CAPT. McGonagle:] The boats continued to approach the
ship at high speed and on a constant bearing with
decreasing range.

1426 [LOG:] NOTICED NORMAL STEAMING ENSIGN SHOT AWAY
DURING AIR ATTACK HOLIDAY SIZE ENSIGN HOISTED ON PORT
YARDARM.

[CAPT. McGonagle:] About this time I noticed that our
Ensign had been shot away during the air attack and
ordered DAVID, signalman, to hoist a second Ensign from
the yardarm. During the air attack, our normal Ensign was
flying. Before the torpedo attack, a holiday size Ensign
was hoisted. ? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ????? I could to
standby for torpedo attack from starboard.
 
Once again Roundhead, posting account after account about Americans on the Liberty seeing the American flag flying says nothing about what the Israeli planes saw. No one disputes that the Liberty had their flag flying.
 
It seems to me that people are trying to present a false dichotomy here...

Either the attack on the Liberty was a deliberate attack by the IDF on a US ship and the US government swept it under the rug and dismissed it as an accident.

or

The attack was accidental and the US government investigated it thoroughly.

I don't see how these are related. Demonstrating that the US Government was reluctant to investigate does not mean the attack was deliberate.

Here's a third option:

-The attack was accidental but the US government took action to dismiss the event as an accident before an investigation of any description was conducted.

The facts of the incident and the behaviour of the US government after the incident are two independent things.

I have a question for jmeadors, and it is a serious question. While it's specifically aimed at him, anyone else is most welcome to answer.

If a Congressional investigation of the incident is conducted, and finds that the attack was accidental, will you accept the findings?

If, for anyone, the answer to the above is "no" you are lying when you say you want a proper investigation to be conducted. If the answer is "yes", I fully support your calls for an investigation.
 
Once again Roundhead, posting account after account about Americans on the Liberty seeing the American flag flying says nothing about what the Israeli planes saw. No one disputes that the Liberty had their flag flying.


That isnt true. The Israeli's stated it wasnt flying
 
It seems to me that people are trying to present a false dichotomy here...

Either the attack on the Liberty was a deliberate attack by the IDF on a US ship and the US government swept it under the rug and dismissed it as an accident.

or

The attack was accidental and the US government investigated it thoroughly.

I don't see how these are related. Demonstrating that the US Government was reluctant to investigate does not mean the attack was deliberate.

Here's a third option:

-The attack was accidental but the US government took action to dismiss the event as an accident before an investigation of any description was conducted.

The facts of the incident and the behaviour of the US government after the incident are two independent things.

I have a question for jmeadors, and it is a serious question. While it's specifically aimed at him, anyone else is most welcome to answer.

If a Congressional investigation of the incident is conducted, and finds that the attack was accidental, will you accept the findings?

If, for anyone, the answer to the above is "no" you are lying when you say you want a proper investigation to be conducted. If the answer is "yes", I fully support your calls for an investigation.


My honest opinion is i want a congressional investigation that allows any and all crewmembers with something of value to the case to be able to testify freely. Additionally, any intelligence people with direct information should be called as well.

I also think it would be valuable to have any Israeli's that were part of the attack/ATC to testify as well.

The fact Adm McCain forbade the Naval court of inquiry to go to Israel to interview pertinent individuals i find unpardonable.

As i posted earlier, the fact Adm Staring wouldnt sign off on the findings of the inquiry says plenty about it.
I also found it troubling that families were told it was an accident BEFORE the hearing was even convened. That certainly speaks to the stance the Govt took as regards the case.
 
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That isnt true. The Israeli's stated it wasnt flying

I have no doubt that some of those who didn't see the flag simply assumed it wasn't raised. American accounts still have nothing to do with Israel aircraft seeing the flag or not.
 
I have no doubt that some of those who didn't see the flag simply assumed it wasn't raised. American accounts still have nothing to do with Israel aircraft seeing the flag or not.


There seems to be a general concensus that even the radio transmissions that have been released(and of course there is plenty of evidence there were more that have"dissapeared")consistantly mention"American flag" as part of the intercept.

If the Israeli's didnt see the flag(extremely unlikely) it is curious why "American Flag"would be part of any of the radio traffic that has been reported, if in fact it wasnt noted.

In other words, why not Egyptian Flag, that would have been in the intercepted radio traffic?
 
My honest opinion is i want a congressional investigation that allows any and all crewmembers with something of value to the case to be able to testify freely. Additionally, any intelligence people with direct information should be called as well.

I also think it would be valuable to have any Israeli's that were part of the attack/ATC to testify as well.

The fact Adm McCain forbade the Naval court of inquiry to go to Israel to interview pertinent individuals i find unpardonable.

As i posted earlier, the fact Adm Staring wouldnt sign off on the findings of the inquiry says plenty about it.
I also found it troubling that families were told it was an accident BEFORE the hearing was even convened. That certainly speaks to the stance the Govt took as regards the case.


You didn't answer my question. Assume all of the above is satisfied, and the inquiry finds that the attack was accidental?
 
Senate Armed Services Committee
Feb. 1, 1968

No conclusion. Secretary McNamara makes comparison of attack on Liberty to that on Pueblo with regard to uncertainty about what was happening at the time of the incident.

House Appropriations Committee
April-May 1968

Navy communications "foulup" and no conclusion regarding Israeli actions. Much of report remains classified.

House Armed Services Committee
May 10, 1971

Critical of Navy communications, no conclusion regarding Israeli actions.

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
1979

Responding to critical book by Liberty crewman James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit to his claim attack was intentional.

House Armed Services Committee
June 1991

Responding to request from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommitte on Investigations launched probe that concluded there was no evidence to support allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation.


Assuming the five above investigations of the USS Liberty incident actually did occur, Sword of Truth is correct. The above are all entities within the United States Congress. Both houses are represented by these investigations.

To claim that no Congressional Investigation was ever conducted into the USS Liberty incident is therefore simply not true.
 
To claim that no Congressional Investigation was ever conducted into the USS Liberty incident is therefore simply not true.

Somebody explained how mistaken identity could occur earlier. Prinz Eugen, Pueblo, and Liberty are but a few. How about Mayaguez? It might be my memory here but weren't the crew of Mayaguez spotted on a different vessel even before the rescue was attempted?

Again, memory, but didn't one of the Liberty crew change his story about the machine-gunned life rafts outside the official investigations?

Liberty is one of the stock-in-trade of anti-semitic conspiracists. If anyone wants a good account of how military mistakes happen, I highly recommend Gabriel's Military Incompetence. For those wishing to examine the same problems in the UK military, there's Dixon's On The Psychology Of Military Incompetence. Gabriel's is the more dispassionate of the two. Liberty would hardly rate in the Top 100 of bad decision-making. The battles of Balaclava, Sedan, and Chancellorsville in the nineteenth century are examples of far worse military judgement but, since there were no Jews involved, they've never suffered similar scrutiny.
 
Assuming the five above investigations of the USS Liberty incident actually did occur, Sword of Truth is correct. The above are all entities within the United States Congress. Both houses are represented by these investigations.

To claim that no Congressional Investigation was ever conducted into the USS Liberty incident is therefore simply not true.


I have no alternative but to assume you didnt read my earlier post, so i will put it up again. It has no ambiguity.




Dear Patron:

Thank you for your query.

After checking numerous resources, including the CIS (Congressional Information Service) Indexes to Congressional Hearings (both published and unpublished), and the Public Documents Masterfile, I could find no evidence that the Congress ever held hearings or launched an investigation into the June 8, 1967 incident with the USS Liberty.

The Library of Congress does have the following titles concerning the USS Liberty in the Library's collections:

[Several references follow] I hope that this information is helpful.

ECH
Reference Librarian
Main Reading Room
Humanities & Social Sciences Division
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
 
I have no alternative but to assume you didnt read my earlier post, so i will put it up again. It has no ambiguity.

So only Congressional Investigations into any and all incidents in the world, ever, count? Despite the fact that Congress was represented at previous investigations? Why do you specfically require full congressional hearings?
 
Ennes...


"Survivors repeatedly have asked Cristol and others to provide copies or other evidence of these so-called “investigations.” None has done so. They cannot. There are no such investigations. Similarly, we have asked them to remove their false statements. They refuse. These lies serve their purpose.

In fact, when survivors have sought details of such investigations from their congressmen, from the Navy Judge Advocate General, from the Library of Congress, from the Congressional Research Service, or from any other government agency, we have repeatedly been advised that there has never been any congressional investigation of Israel’s attack on the USS Liberty.

Most recently, on July 25, 2006, in response to a query from Liberty survivors, the Librarian of Congress wrote:

“After checking numerous resources, including the CIS (Congressional Information Service) Indexes to Congressional Hearings (both published and unpublished), and the Public Documents Masterfile, I could find no evidence that the Congress ever held hearings or launched an investigation into the June 8, 1967 incident with the USS Liberty. LC Control Number: 98135843.”

That should settle the issue for all time and bring Cristol, Joffe, ADL and other myopic Israel-can-do-no-wrongers to cease their never-ending claim that Israel has been exonerated by numerous investigations. That simply is not true, never has been true and never will be true, despite their blind determination to deny reality.




Sorry, as a former sailor, i cant with an open heart call these fine men who served with patriotism and good conduct liars.

As an American, i find it deplorable that an overwhelming consensus of our men, who were there that day, wouldnt be taken at they're word regarding events that memorable day.


The other party(in this case Israel)makes no difference to me.Had it been Ivory Coast, Peru, Canada, it isnt the issue.

The issue is these men were murdered, and we as a country should right this wrong.
 
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