Are Truthers' accusations against Silverstein based on latent anti-Semitism?

[twinstead]

Oh my, Red. I suppose using Not Ever Taking a Position on Anything No Matter What as a debate tactic can have its drawbacks...

 

[RedIbis]

Oh my, Red. I suppose using Not Ever Taking a Position on Anything No Matter What as a debate tactic can have its drawbacks...

Ha! Good one. This really is not much more than refusing to adhere to any goofy pledge that Ron posted and aggressively defending myself against nasty accusations of bigotry.

 

[LashL]

Don't put words in my mouth. I said you latched onto this silly line of thinking, which is exactly what you do here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3821239&postcount=336

And you are wrong, as usual.

I raised your pathetic "debate" tactics and the matter of your repeatedly accusing of Larry Silverstein of "lying through his dentures" back in post #155. You are quoting post #336. Since I was the first to raise that matter in the thread, it is hardly me "latching on" to a perfectly legitimate subject of discussion.


And what of this, RedIbis?

Quote where he specifically accuses you of being a jew hater.

Follow the link in the OP. Pom admits as much, although he cowardly refers to it as an implication.

Several people, LashL, and others jumped on the opportunity and agreed with this silly charge.

Is that to be construed any way but you accusing me of calling you a "jew hater"?

You, little red bird, are a liar.

 

[pomeroo]

Ha! Good one. This really is not much more than refusing to adhere to any goofy pledge that Ron posted and aggressively defending myself against nasty accusations of bigotry.

You were asked to explain why denouncing the Jew-haters in your movement should be regarded as "goofy." As always, you avoided the issue. We'll try again: will you denounce the Jew-haters in the fantasy movement? Will you explain what is "goofy" about the request?

 

[funk de fino]

You should be able to see the point of my evading the question, in light of my post 141. Did you miss it?

I fail to see why anyone on here, debunkers or truthers would run away from a simple question.

As for calling this "running away", such a choice of words is quite consistent with your calling me a "coward". You really should stick with it - it suits your character just fine.

I am not the one refusing to answer. You know little of my character yet you condemn me and not the bigotry of some of the TM.

Of course, I'm really not interested in the answer to my reciprocal, thought police type questions. They're asked to make it obvious what their nature is - not so much to the "debunkers" to whom they're directed, but to lurkers who might actually mistake innuendo, smearing and sophistry for honest inquiry.

Mine was an honest enquiry, you seem to have conflated me with other people in this thread. As far as lurkers are concerned I would imagine they are wondering why you would not answer when I have offered to answer any of your questions.

It would be of interest to me to get a serious answer to my questions and suggestions re how one could really determine the extent of anti-Semitism in the WTC 7 aware subgroup of 911 Truthers. By now, of course, I am used to such validation-type questions being ignored or deflected by the "debunking" community. Indeed, I've been thinking of starting a new thread called "The Curious Incuriosity of the Debunkers". You might actually get honorable mention!

So bigotry does not matter to you if it is small numbers? You will only condemn if it is shown to be visible in great amounts?

I suppose that you're quite content with pomeroo's "Oh, just look at all the garbage in my email box!" method of quantification. (Really, non-quantification. He never did tell us how high a percentage "high" was, as I predicted.) Correct? If you are, then please speak to the analogous situation of bonanza-in-Nigeria emails.

Numbers again? If one of my friends is a racist I would call him on it. I would not wait and test all my other friends before launching my attack.

Poms views are nothing to do with me and me and pom have major differences in many things. I feel there is a tendency here to jump on posters with the anti semite canard far too often. The OP to me was asking about the origins of the accusations and I agree a lot of it is based on anti semetism. However if you look at my earliest post you will see I think this is not the case with most truthers now as they just parrot the nonsense originally made up by the neo nazis. When I asked if you would condemn the anti semites as well as the few who blatantly display there neo nazi tendencies on this board you run away? I fail to see why?

See above.

Was a lot of words and not much substance IMO

 

[RedIbis]

You were asked to explain why denouncing the Jew-haters in your movement should be regarded as "goofy." As always, you avoided the issue. We'll try again: will you denounce the Jew-haters in the fantasy movement? Will you explain what is "goofy" about the request?

I said your pledge was goofy. I denounce jew haters anywhere, in or out of whatever you think is the Twoof Movement.

 

[RedIbis]

And you are wrong, as usual.

I raised your pathetic "debate" tactics and the matter of your repeatedly accusing of Larry Silverstein of "lying through his dentures" back in post #155. You are quoting post #336. Since I was the first to raise that matter in the thread, it is hardly me "latching on" to a perfectly legitimate subject of discussion.


And what of this, RedIbis?



Is that to be construed any way but you accusing me of calling you a "jew hater"?

You, little red bird, are a liar.

If you want to jump into the fray and defend someone who recklessly makes charges of bigotry, don't be surprised when you get lumped in with such idiots.

 

[~enigma~]

I said your pledge was goofy. I denounce jew haters anywhere, in or out of whatever you think is the Twoof Movement.

Red, why did you say there was no truth movement? By extention you are claiming there are no anti-semitic people in the truth movement. That means your denouncement is nothing more than lip service.

 

[RedIbis]

Red, why did you say there was no truth movement? By extention you are claiming there are no anti-semitic people in the truth movement. That means your denouncement is nothing more than lip service.

See post #227

 

[~enigma~]

See post #227

I saw it already and I responded to it. Once again i will ask...

why did you say there was no truth movement? By extension you are claiming there are no anti-semitic people in the truth movement. That means your denouncement is nothing more than lip service.

 

[RedIbis]

I saw it already and I responded to it. Once again i will ask...

Move on to something else. How many ways can I say it , there are bigots in all kinds of movements. Get over it. Heavens to Mergatroids there might even be anti-semite debunkers.

 

[~enigma~]

Move on to something else. How many ways can I say it , there are bigots in all kinds of movements. Get over it. Heavens to Mergatroids there might even be anti-semite debunkers.

You once again failed to answer. In light of that I can't understand how anyone can be so obtuse as to not understand why some see them as a jew hating anti-semite. But if you choose to answer...

why did you say there was no truth movement? By extension you are claiming there are no anti-semitic people in the truth movement. That means your denouncement is nothing more than lip service.

 

[metamars]

I don't know if it's 51% or 49%, but I know it's far greater than 3%. I know this because I receive countless e-mails from anti-Semitic twoofers.

Now go ahead and apply the same awesome analysis to the bonanza-in-Nigeria emailers. Somehow, you seem reluctant to do this. I note, also, that not just you, but everyone else has studiously avoided the question of shills.

Certainly, the employment of shills can be anticipated for two purposes
1) keep the anti-Semitic brand going. This implies, among other things, being able to use it without having to educate the public, from scratch, about what anti-Semitism means, or how it is to be recognized.
2) protect bona fide misdeeds by Jews and Israelis from rational criticism, via enveloping such deeds in 'radioactive' disinformation

This is another subject, in and of itself, so deserves another thread

Such details shouldn't bother me, and they don't. I and the other rationalists here understand that a large segment of the fantasy movement consists of Jew-haters. Your ludicrous effort to deny the obvious has fallen flat.

Since your lack of rationality (not to mention fairness) is on display, your self-celebratory proclamations are just as ridiculous as these statements are meaningless.

You are understandably befuddled. It means "many."

You are obviously missing the point, either intentionally, or because, despite your self-proclamations of rationality, you can't understand really simple concepts. I am looking for a quantitative measurement of this alleged anti-Semitism in the 911 Truth community, where the 911 Truthers are picked at random, and the sample is large enough to minimize the presence of shills in the sample, and to have sufficient statistical significance. You have no more certainty of what the results of such a serious study would be than you have an idea of how many of your bonanza-in-Nigeria emails are even from real Nigerians.
Oh, well, you've now been a little bit more specific, and we now see you asserting that the true figure is far greater than 3%. Using your oh-so-reliable anti-Semitism-spam algorithm, how can any "triumphant rationalist" doubt you?

BTW, what's the incidence of anti-Semitism in the general, American population? Surely you have looked into this?

What I have stated is completely true, and you are irrational.

Repeat for 10 years! Don't disappoint us!

 

[metamars]

I fail to see why anyone on here, debunkers or truthers would run away from a simple question.

Let me try, yet again, to explain. Your "simple question" represents, to me, the sort of question insisted upon by a thought policeman. (BTW, people like you would fit in very well in much of Europe. Did you know that it was illegal to tell a racist joke in at least one of the countries, there? I think it was Denmark or Holland. And I don't mean just in, say, the workplace, where employer rules leading to dismissal (only!) along these lines are fine by me. I find the existence of such laws repugnant. I'd rather put up with boorishness in my fellow citizens.) Your great interest in my intellectual purity is not matched, at all, by the subject of the thread, which, properly and fairly interpreted, is not about potential anti-Semitism in me, nor in RedIbis, but in the WTC7 aware portion of the 911 Truth Movement as a whole. The thread is entitled Are Truthers' accusations against Silverstein based on latent anti-Semitism?, after all.

I am not the one refusing to answer. You know little of my character yet you condemn me and not the bigotry of some of the TM.

You have called me a "coward", and in another thread, you said I was "disingenuous", based on your complete misreading of my intentions of what I had written there. Believe it or not, I think this does inform me of your character. I have seen you smack others with your quick-on-the-draw insults and false charges, also.

Mine was an honest enquiry,

But on what subject? Am I the subject of the thread, or a huge subset of the 911 Truth Movement? Do tell.

you seem to have conflated me with other people in this thread. As far as lurkers are concerned I would imagine they are wondering why you would not answer when I have offered to answer any of your questions.

I sincerely hope that lurkers who wonder why I have still not answered your "simple question" are paying close attention to my answers. I am far more concerned about thinking people, who are susceptible to reasoning, anyway. From a young age, I came to realize how completely irrational some people can be. Even nice people, who, when asked for reasons for some belief or statement, would often say the most unlikely things. I frankly don't care that much about the irrational, since there's not much I can do or say that will change their minds.
Thus, e.g., my interaction with pomeroo has nothing to do with a mistaken belief on my part that he will suddenly see the light. Now, that would be irrational.

So bigotry does not matter to you if it is small numbers? You will only condemn if it is shown to be visible in great amounts?

I'm concerned about it even in small numbers, mostly because it allows "debunkers" to make anti-Semitic hay. This makes it only too easy for the shallow of mind to imbibe the smearing being liberally applied by the likes of pomeroo.
Unfortunately, there's not much I can do about it. And no, passing a purity test by thought police will not make a dent in, say, the junk that appears in pomeroo's mailbox.

Numbers again? If one of my friends is a racist I would call him on it. I would not wait and test all my other friends before launching my attack.

If you had a holier-than-thou type of friend, would you oblige his/her purity tests, whenever he/she felt a compulsion to apply them to you? Would you not, eventually, grow tired and insulted by such tests? And if a member of your family failed such a test, would you allow your holier-than-thou-thought-policeman-of-a-friend to smear your entire family?

I feel there is a tendency here to jump on posters with the anti semite canard far too often.

Well, at least we agree on something.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

While there is plenty of anti semitism in the truth movement (especially in the roots) I would suspect if Mr Silversteins name was O'Donnel or Stromboli the theories about pull it would still be there.
It just so happens the owner of WTC 7 was Jewish.
There is no lack of hate for Guiliani , Cheney or Bush in the truth movement.

Good point. I wonder if the antisemitism is just a side-effect of a belief that "the Jews" are just another secret society.

 

[Max Photon]

Taking hate to a whole new level

This thread is the hate hate, or hate² thread.

Hate² is yet another lens or filter through which many (here at least) view 911.


Note the incredible distortion created in this thread by such warped optics.

 

[pomeroo]

I said your pledge was goofy. I denounce jew haters anywhere, in or out of whatever you think is the Twoof Movement.

Yes, you did say that my "pledge" (no one is aware of any pledge) was "goofy," but it made no sense. The fantasy movement is infested with Jew-haters. Why should it be "goofy" to denounce them?

 

[pomeroo]

Now go ahead and apply the same awesome analysis to the bonanza-in-Nigeria emailers. Somehow, you seem reluctant to do this. I note, also, that not just you, but everyone else has studiously avoided the question of shills.

Certainly, the employment of shills can be anticipated for two purposes
1) keep the anti-Semitic brand going. This implies, among other things, being able to use it without having to educate the public, from scratch, about what anti-Semitism means, or how it is to be recognized.
2) protect bona fide misdeeds by Jews and Israelis from rational criticism, via enveloping such deeds in 'radioactive' disinformation

This is another subject, in and of itself, so deserves another thread


Since your lack of rationality (not to mention fairness) is on display, your self-celebratory proclamations are just as ridiculous as these statements are meaningless.



You are obviously missing the point, either intentionally, or because, despite your self-proclamations of rationality, you can't understand really simple concepts. I am looking for a quantitative measurement of this alleged anti-Semitism in the 911 Truth community, where the 911 Truthers are picked at random, and the sample is large enough to minimize the presence of shills in the sample, and to have sufficient statistical significance. You have no more certainty of what the results of such a serious study would be than you have an idea of how many of your bonanza-in-Nigeria emails are even from real Nigerians.
Oh, well, you've now been a little bit more specific, and we now see you asserting that the true figure is far greater than 3%. Using your oh-so-reliable anti-Semitism-spam algorithm, how can any "triumphant rationalist" doubt you?

BTW, what's the incidence of anti-Semitism in the general, American population? Surely you have looked into this?


Repeat for 10 years! Don't disappoint us!

You are quite the comedian. You want a sample? Take a sample right here. How many conspiracy liars are raving Jew-haters? None? Ooops, that won't do! Kevin Barrett is a virulent anti-Semite, as is Alex Jones. Dick Eastman sends me ravings almost every day about the "Rothschilds" and the "Zion-cons." Your ignorance, whether real or feigned, of the huge anti-Semitic contingent in your evil, mindless movement hardly rises to the level of a coherent argument.

"Alleged" anti-Semitism in the fantasy movement--yeah, maybe there's very little. Baseless slanders of Larry Silverstein and nonsensical fables about Mossad agents, fictitious warnings, and dancing Jews have nothing to do with Israel's foreign policy, as you know.

 

[Confuseling]

You are quite the comedian. You want a sample? Take a sample right here. How many conspiracy liars are raving Jew-haters? None? Ooops, that won't do! Kevin Barrett is a virulent anti-Semite, as is Alex Jones. Dick Eastman sends me ravings almost every day about the "Rothschilds" and the "Zion-cons." Your ignorance, whether real or feigned, of the huge anti-Semitic contingent in your evil, mindless movement hardly rises to the level of a coherent argument.

"Alleged" anti-Semitism in the fantasy movement--yeah, maybe there's very little. Baseless slanders of Larry Silverstein and nonsensical fables about Mossad agents, fictitious warnings, and dancing Jews have nothing to do with Israel's foreign policy, as you know.

Care to make a similar qualitative analysis of Islamophobia in your favoured news sources pom?

 

[pomeroo]

Let me try, yet again, to explain. Your "simple question" represents, to me, the sort of question insisted upon by a thought policeman. (BTW, people like you would fit in very well in much of Europe. Did you know that it was illegal to tell a racist joke in at least one of the countries, there? I think it was Denmark or Holland. And I don't mean just in, say, the workplace, where employer rules leading to dismissal (only!) along these lines are fine by me. I find the existence of such laws repugnant. I'd rather put up with boorishness in my fellow citizens.) Your great interest in my intellectual purity is not matched, at all, by the subject of the thread, which, properly and fairly interpreted, is not about potential anti-Semitism in me, nor in RedIbis, but in the WTC7 aware portion of the 911 Truth Movement as a whole. The thread is entitled Are Truthers' accusations against Silverstein based on latent anti-Semitism?, after all.


You have called me a "coward", and in another thread, you said I was "disingenuous", based on your complete misreading of my intentions of what I had written there. Believe it or not, I think this does inform me of your character. I have seen you smack others with your quick-on-the-draw insults and false charges, also.


But on what subject? Am I the subject of the thread, or a huge subset of the 911 Truth Movement? Do tell.


I sincerely hope that lurkers who wonder why I have still not answered your "simple question" are paying close attention to my answers. I am far more concerned about thinking people, who are susceptible to reasoning, anyway. From a young age, I came to realize how completely irrational some people can be. Even nice people, who, when asked for reasons for some belief or statement, would often say the most unlikely things. I frankly don't care that much about the irrational, since there's not much I can do or say that will change their minds.
Thus, e.g., my interaction with pomeroo has nothing to do with a mistaken belief on my part that he will suddenly see the light. Now, that would be irrational.


I'm concerned about it even in small numbers, mostly because it allows "debunkers" to make anti-Semitic hay. This makes it only too easy for the shallow of mind to imbibe the smearing being liberally applied by the likes of pomeroo.
Unfortunately, there's not much I can do about it. And no, passing a purity test by thought police will not make a dent in, say, the junk that appears in pomeroo's mailbox.


If you had a holier-than-thou type of friend, would you oblige his/her purity tests, whenever he/she felt a compulsion to apply them to you? Would you not, eventually, grow tired and insulted by such tests? And if a member of your family failed such a test, would you allow your holier-than-thou-thought-policeman-of-a-friend to smear your entire family?



Well, at least we agree on something.

Your deceptions are transparent. Would it be "smearing" A-Train or MaGZ to point out that they are virulent Jew-haters? Your stance reminds me of a well-intentioned, but hopelessly confused liberal girl on a campus many years ago. A conservative student had inveighed against an upcoming appearance by the unreconstructed Stalinist Angela Davis. The sweet young progressive protested that calling people communists was "McCarthyite. The conservative reminded her that Davis was running for Vice-President on the communist ticket. Yes, replied our heroine, but you still can't say such things.

Tell us who is being smeared. Larry Silverstein is being smeared by Jew-haters when he is accused of crimes that can't be expressed in words. Please clarify this matter for us: a person's irrational attitude toward Silverstein either is or is not a manifestation of anti-Semitism. Why can't the person under suspicion resolve all doubts by simply stating in clear language what he accuses the man of doing?

What "light" should I see? Your uninformed guess that anti-Semitism is not widespread in the fantasy movement is wrong--wrong in an obvious-to-anyone-with-eyes sense. Explain why it is "irrational" to ask someone who slanders an innocent man, an innocent man who happens to be a Jew, to provide some assurance that his animus is rooted in something other than the world's oldest and most poisonous bias.