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Where We Get Our Morals From

In the interest of brevity I'll just answer this one

No it isn't.

Wait a second ... you are saying that morality is not acting in accordance accepted standards of right and wrong?

So... if God has accepted certain standards of right and wrong, and you act according to those, you are not a moral person?

SS guards had their own accepted standards of right and wrong. But these accepted standards of right and wrong were immoral.

Why are those standards immoral?

If you say because they are different standards than what God has accepted, then you are asserting that morality is acting according to accepted standards of right and wrong.

If you say not because they are different that God's standards, then you are asserting that morality is independent of God's standards.

So which is it, plumjam? Is morality acting according to standards or is morality independent of God?
 
:confused:

Are you trying to tell me that my observation equates to a 'belief'?

Until you explain why I will continue to assume that you are merely using irrelevant semantics to avoid acknowledging that your woo is plainly ridiculous

Of course it's a belief of yours. Other people could observe the same information and come to a different conclusion.. which would be their belief about how the information should be rightly interpreted.

"your woo is plainly ridiculous" is another belief of yours, given that others can be exposed to my "woo" and think it is only stupid, rather than ridiculous.

:p
 
Morals evolved. It's pretty straightforward. It's only the theists who make the bizarre claims that morals come from some magical soul humans are supposed to have.

Exactly. In my earlier post, I compared morality to language. I already pointed out some of the similarities, but I've got a couple more.

As with language, we see proto-morality in other animals.

As with morality, language was at one time seen as a gift from God and not something that was otherwise explicable in naturalistic terms.

ETA: Another similarity is that you don't have to be an expert in the study of language to be an expert in using a language. In other words, an unallowed utterance can take a linguist some time to explain, but can be abundantly clear to a native speaker of a language as just not sounding right. Similarly, you don't have to be a logician (or believe in God!) to have a sense of right and wrong.
 
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Wait a second ... you are saying that morality is not acting in accordance accepted standards of right and wrong?
The problem here is the word 'accepted'. Human beings sometimes (like the SS) accept wildly erroneous standards of right and wrong. So morality is not that.

So... if God has accepted certain standards of right and wrong, and you act according to those, you are not a moral person?
God has not accepted anything, God created everything.. including moral truth.



Why are those standards immoral?
If you say because they are different standards than what God has accepted, then you are asserting that morality is acting according to accepted standards of right and wrong.

If you say not because they are different that God's standards, then you are asserting that morality is independent of God's standards.

So which is it, plumjam? Is morality acting according to standards or is morality independent of God?
The 'standards' of the SS were immoral because they were fundamentally out of harmony with moral truth as God created it.

Your "you are asserting that morality is independent of God's standards" makes no sense.
 
Of course it's a belief of yours. Other people could observe the same information and come to a different conclusion.. which would be their belief about how the information should be rightly interpreted

Thanks for trying - yet failing - to explain

Irrelevant semantics it is then
 
The main cognitive disconnect I can see here is that some of us are saying that morals are relative, and others see that as meaning that morals don't exist - we can do whatever we like. This is fundamentally incorrect.

The phrase "morals are relative" does not in any sense imply that people don't have consciences, or that society does not regulate behaviour. Both these concepts are true. We do have consciences, and those consciences are shaped by our society as we mature. In my article (linked at the beginning of the thread) I give two examples: the feudal samurai of the 14th-16th centuries, and the Old Religion of Fiji.

If a samurai was dishonoured, he was duty-bound to commit suicide. His conscience forced him into it. His conscience was shaped by the society of the time to direct him in this way. It would not be against his conscience to kill a peasant, because that was acceptable for a samurai in that society at that time. We cannot, of course, ask a 16th century samurai what he felt about it, but the records we have support this case. It would be perverse to say that he really did feel bad about killing that peasant, but acted in that way despite his conscience.

Morals are relative. They are relative to time, and they are relative to society. Morals are shaped by the society in which we grow up. There are kids growing up in Palestine today who desparately want to become suicide bombers, because they are brought up in a society where that sort of thing is encouraged. Do you think they have a crisis of conscience before blowing themselves up in bars?

Another thing which I go into in my article is why it appears that our modern "western" moral complex derives from that taught in the Judeo-Christian religion. There is a reason for this. First, the founders of our countries and the authors of our laws were in a large part Judeo-Christians or brought up in societies that were influenced by Judeo-Christianity. So their moral complexes were shaped by that. But the other idea that I put forward is that what I call the "Judeo-Christian moral complex" is successful. It makes for a stable society. Different societies compete with one another in a Darwinesque pseudo-evolutionary manner. The more stable societies last, while the less stable ones are conquered or otherwise disappear. We are possessers of a very successful moral complex - one that permits society to grow and thrive.
 
Of course morals exist, arthwo. The question is their etiology. Did they evolve or did some god magically create them? The evidence is they evolved.

As a product of evolution are morals exact or absolute? Evolution doesn't typically give those kind of results.
 
The problem here is the word 'accepted'. Human beings sometimes (like the SS) accept wildly erroneous standards of right and wrong. So morality is not that.

Not all rectangles are squares. Yet "a square is a rectangle" is a true statement. So is "morality is acting according to accepted standards of right and wrong."

God has not accepted anything, God created everything.. including moral truth.

Ok, then throw out the word "accepted" that seems to be giving you so much trouble.

If god has created certain standards of right and wrong, and you act according to those, are you or are you not a moral person?

The 'standards' of the SS were immoral because they were fundamentally out of harmony with moral truth as God created it.

So then you admit that morality is acting according to standards of right and wrong. Why didn't you just agree to that in the first place?

Your "you are asserting that morality is independent of God's standards" makes no sense.

I was simply saying that if you claim morality is not acting according to standards of right and wrong then by implication morality is not acting according to the moral truth God has created.

But you have already reverted your position, and admitted that morality is acting in accordance with standards of right and wrong, so it doesn't matter.
 
Thanks for trying - yet failing - to explain

Irrelevant semantics it is then

I can explain it.

Plumjam desperately wants to rationalize his woo beliefs. The only way he can do this is by taking a quasi-solipsist position that everything is merely a belief and that all beliefs are of equal merit.

In such a way he convinces himself that his belief in an 'absolute universal aesthetic standard of beauty that people perceive using their 8th sense' has as much merit as our belief that the earth is round.
 
Of course morals exist, arthwo. The question is their etiology. Did they evolve or did some god magically create them? The evidence is they evolved.

As a product of evolution are morals exact or absolute? Evolution doesn't typically give those kind of results.
I completely agree. This is why different cultures have different moral complexes.
 
Thanks for trying - yet failing - to explain

Irrelevant semantics it is then

It's a common tactic of Plumjam's, he wheels it out every so often. He likes to use the widest possible definition for belief. That way he can claim that almost anything is belief, so (for example) science and religion both have the same basis. As you say, irrelevant (or deceptive) semantics.
 
In effect, then, your argument is that not every single human being in existence will act, react, or believe in the saw way in different circumstances.
Which is very nearly saying nothing at all. And certainly saying nothing of interest.
It's very nearly saying nothing at all, certainly isn't of great interest, and wouldn't need to be said at all except in rebuttal to your sweeping generalisations.

You claimed that laws - in particular, the speeding laws - originated through conscience when the creators of those laws had moral truth imparted to them via conscience, and that this was evidence of absolute moral values.

I posited situations in which this wasn't necessarily true.

You claimed that I would have the exact same moral response to speed-related accidents as you would, making my point invalid.

I responded that not everyone is the same, making the possibility of a different moral reaction or the origination of laws other than through conscience completely possible.

You then agreed with me to the extent that you now think I'm pointing out the blindingly obvious...odd, really, as you're agreeing with the fact which underlies the rebuttal to your point, and then accusing me of not being interesting when I feel the need to point it out.
Yes, but your dislike of beetroot, and Fred's liking of it does not mean that beetroot has no existence independent of your own subjective actions, reactions and beliefs about beetroot.
Fred and I do not quibble over the existence of beetroot. We quibble over its qualities. Many of these qualities, being subjective, are judged independently and have little to do with the intrinsic properties of said beetroot.

We view beetroot differently. Hard, then, to claim that it is an Absolute Truth that beetroot is nice.
Who is this "we" you are referring to? Is there a group of you huddled over the keyboard, or do you have split personality disorder? ;)
My many braincells are addressing your one. ;)
So, what you are saying is that self-interest is possible. As above, big deal.
...meaning that not all moral decisions need to be derived from conscience or absolute moral truth, negating your ability to use this claim as evidence of an absolute moral truth's existence.

Again, you're now claiming that this is so blindingly obvious that it's not worth pointing out. You're not quite your own worst enemy. More your own arch-nemesis. Do you piddle in your own cornflakes and then cry when they taste funny? ;)
So you are agreeing with me. Some people have a better developed conscience than others. The ones with less developed consciences are more prone to selfishness. The fact that this happens has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not there exists moral truth beyond the individual.
You claimed that conscience was a conduit of absolute moral truth. I'm claiming it isn't.

If I claim that conscience is the conduit of the wishes of the Loch Ness Monster, and people perceive it to one level or another depending on how well their conscience is developed, it is as unprovable as your argument and yet strangely more satisfying.
Some people have impaired sight. They may not see the tomato heading in their direction. But that does not mean the tomato does not exist independently of themselves.
Then how do you decide whose conscience is best developed and attuned to the Absolute Moral Truth? We have tests for eyesight, and we can give a level of independent verification to the results. How do we decide who is best plumbed into the Truth of the Universe and let them write our laws? And if we can't...what use are these absolute truths anyway?
With humour it is not terribly important for us, as a society, to be able to agree on, and formulate in words some system that reflects the underlying truth behind our individual perceptions.
With morality it is indispensable that we do this.

So you mixing morality and humour in this way is just a bit silly.
Ah, but no.

With morality, as with humour, there is no objective and absolute value, so while it would be more useful to us to have access to absolute truth in the former case, neither case actually grants it to us. Hence, a parallel is justified.

You not seeing the similarity here is just a bit silly.

In addition, we do not, in morality, "agree on and formulate in words some system that reflects the underlying truth behind our individual perceptions". We agree on and formulate in words some system that reflects our individual perceptions; there is no suggestion that in doing so we have arrived at some underlying truth. A law which is popular is not more 'true'. Truth is not derived from Gallup polls.
 
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Welcome, new member, Hughnon-- plumjam is a forum troll, but we like to keep him around. He can be very entertaining so long as you keep your expectations for his understanding anything you say very, very low. Rock on.
 
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Welcome, new member, Hughnon-- plumjam is a forum troll, but we like to keep him around. He can be very entertaining so long as you keep your expectations for his understanding anything you say very, very low. Rock on.
Thank you! And I'll bear it in mind... :D
 
!!! No They're Not !!! oNLI A fULE wULD aRGUE tHAT​
 
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