Are Truthers' accusations against Silverstein based on latent anti-Semitism?

metamars, no one here is talking about wife beating. The question is that of anti-semitism in the Truth movement. Your response to funk is asinine and useless, not to mention off topic.

There seems to be no serious intention to deal with that question seriously, which would require research that, AFAIK, hasn't been done. (And let's not completely ignore the fact that the OP shows a twisted viewpoint, with ludicrous underlying assumptions that, again, most people here don't show the slightest interest in recognizing, much less validating.) I don't mistake pontificating, innuendo and insulting with research, do you? I can't say that I was overwhelmed with the responses to a somewhat similar thread that I had started, on the sociology of CT'ists. Somehow, I thought people would have at least expressed an interest in reading the work.

Silly me!

(In re-reading that thread, I see that Confuseling gave a very thoughtful and well written answer, although he/she was writing about Conspiracy Theories' treatment by media and the state, and not the study of Conpiracy Theory Adherents. This OP, mangled as it is, is about Conspiracy Theory Adherents, of a certain subtype.)

As for thought police asking posters to make some sort of statement to prove that they have have the purity required to be taken seriously, if they're too dumb to figure out when they're being challenged in like manner, in order to show the absurdity of their demands, that's not my fault. Maybe you can explain it to them, in case they can't grok the prior sentence.
 
There seems to be no serious intention to deal with that question seriously, which would require research that, AFAIK, hasn't been done. (And let's not completely ignore the fact that the OP shows a twisted viewpoint, with ludicrous underlying assumptions that, again, most people here don't show the slightest interest in recognizing, much less validating.) I don't mistake pontificating, innuendo and insulting with research, do you? I can't say that I was overwhelmed with the responses to a somewhat similar thread that I had started, on the sociology of CT'ists. Somehow, I thought people would have at least expressed an interest in reading the work.

Silly me!

(In re-reading that thread, I see that Confuseling gave a very thoughtful and well written answer, although he/she was writing about Conspiracy Theories' treatment by media and the state, and not the study of Conpiracy Theory Adherents. This OP, mangled as it is, is about Conspiracy Theory Adherents, of a certain subtype.)

As for thought police asking posters to make some sort of statement to prove that they have have the purity required to be taken seriously, if they're too dumb to figure out when they're being challenged in like manner, in order to show the absurdity of their demands, that's not my fault. Maybe you can explain it to them, in case they can't grok the prior sentence.


You're far too unintelligent to have any hope of slipping such transparent deceptions past us. RedIbis has been slandering an innocent man without ever coming close to providing a justification for his despicable behavior. The fact that the object of his baseless smears happens to be Jewish raises the issue of whether or not RedIbis is a Jew-hater. There is, AS YOU KNOW, nothing absurd about requesting a clarification from a twoofer given the high percentage of anti-Semites in the evil and mindless movement he serves. You have no chance of conning anybody here.
 
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You're far too unintelligent to have any hope of slipping such transparent deceptions past us. RedIbis has been slandering an innocent man without ever coming close to providing a justification for his despicable behavior. The fact that the object of his baseless smears happens to be Jewish raises the issue of whether or not RedIbis is a Jew-hater. There is, AS YOU KNOW, nothing absurd about requesting a clarification from a twoofer given the high percentage of anti-Semites in the evil and mindless movement he serves. You have no chance of conning anybody here.

There is a red, wading bird very deep in your head. You cannot even post without referring to it.
 
Crikey (he sighed, inappropriately). Pomeroo, let me know if you want me to visit the Scandinavian Institute gift shop on Madison Avenue. While at lunch there, one day, I encountered Red I.'s original. I will try to buy one for you and ship it to you, for, uhm, any purpose you like, whether good or... eeeeeeeeeevil.
 
Crikey (he sighed, inappropriately). Pomeroo, let me know if you want me to visit the Scandinavian Institute gift shop on Madison Avenue. While at lunch there, one day, I encountered Red I.'s original. I will try to buy one for you and ship it to you, for, uhm, any purpose you like, whether good or... eeeeeeeeeevil.


A very generous offer, but I collect pigs, elephants, griffins, and dragons.
 
There is a red, wading bird very deep in your head. You cannot even post without referring to it.


I am astonished at your handling of this business. Frankly, I expected that you'd simply disavow the Jew-haters.
 
I think some of the accusations are just pure anti-semitism. But I think something bigger than Silverstein is the "4000 Jews" CT. That is the worst of all. It has been debunked many, many, many times. Yet it is still used as cannon fodder by anti-Israel truthers, anti-semitic truthers, and anti-semites.
 
There is a red, wading bird very deep in your head. You cannot even post without referring to it.

Indeed. Silly me, when I read
For those who were not following, we were discussing whether the accusations made against Larry Silverstein--of lying, of complicity, of a cover-up, of fraud, etc--are, deep down, motivated by anti-Semitism on the part of the accuser.

I didn't realize that "the accuser", which seemed like such a general term (within the orbit of 911 Truthers who considered the collapse of WTC 7 to be due to CD, and Silverstein a likely accomplice of said CD), really meant "the accuser (wink, wink - it's YOU we're talking about, RedIbis, YOU!!)"

Normally, the smear-merchants travel up the abstraction ladder (to the more abstract/general, from the more specific) to do their smearing. The lower rung is merely there to conflate with the higher rung, which is the real goal of the smear. Apparently, though, you are such a prize villain, or unfortunate obsession, that profit is seen in remaining at your level in the ladder. Or do the "rationalists" really think they can successfully conflate your supposed anti-Semitism with the rung above you? Oh, such drama! Such mystery!

Have you decided to confess, yet? The Inquisition awaits your answer. Igor, who mans the Iron Maiden, is getting quite antsy. Trust me, you don't want to get Igor antsy.
 
I think some of the accusations are just pure anti-semitism. But I think something bigger than Silverstein is the "4000 Jews" CT. That is the worst of all. It has been debunked many, many, many times. Yet it is still used as cannon fodder by anti-Israel truthers, anti-semitic truthers, and anti-semites.

I agree with you largely. But I still firmly believe that you can read too much into it.

It's an affirmation of the consequent, isn't it? If you were anti-semitic, you'd believe in the the 4000 Jews myth.

You believing in the 4000 Jews myth does not in of itself, however, make you anti-semitic. Maybe you just have lax standards of evidence, and follow any talking point you hear on the subject.

The truth movement itself is suffused with latent anti-semitism. Many truthers are latent or full blown anti-semites. But that does not preclude a non anti-semitic truther from picking up a point bandied about partly for reasons of anti-semitism, without themselves being anti-semitic.

We do no justice to the rectitude of our position to pretend otherwise.
 
There is, AS YOU KNOW, nothing absurd about requesting a clarification from a twoofer given the high percentage of anti-Semites in the evil and mindless movement he serves. You have no chance of conning anybody here.

What percentage is that? And how did you determine whatever percentage you will claim?

I hereby predict that you will not give a percentage, because you have no quantitative evidence worthy of the name. And should I be wrong, you will share your evidence for your claim, won't you? There's no need to keep it secret, right?

Of course, another reason for sharing your evidence is so that lurkers can learn from a great JREF "rationalist" like yourself, how the truly critical mind of a "debunker" operates.
 
Indeed. Silly me, when I read


I didn't realize that "the accuser", which seemed like such a general term (within the orbit of 911 Truthers who considered the collapse of WTC 7 to be due to CD, and Silverstein a likely accomplice of said CD), really meant "the accuser (wink, wink - it's YOU we're talking about, RedIbis, YOU!!)"

Normally, the smear-merchants travel up the abstraction ladder (to the more abstract/general, from the more specific) to do their smearing. The lower rung is merely there to conflate with the higher rung, which is the real goal of the smear. Apparently, though, you are such a prize villain, or unfortunate obsession, that profit is seen in remaining at your level in the ladder. Or do the "rationalists" really think they can successfully conflate your supposed anti-Semitism with the rung above you? Oh, such drama! Such mystery!

Have you decided to confess, yet? The Inquisition awaits your answer. Igor, who mans the Iron Maiden, is getting quite antsy. Trust me, you don't want to get Igor antsy.



Hey, good ploy! We've all forgotten how this started. Nobody remembers RedIbis wading into waters far over his head in a Flight 93 discussion. I prodded him by commenting that, in the absence of any obvious super-Jews, he would find it difficult to make much progress. Max--bless 'em--baited the trap and Red snatched at the cheese. We've had the usual protracted tap dance from Red and much empty vaporizing from you. No one has yet denounced the large and extremely vocal contingent of Jew-haters in the fantasy movement. We continue to wonder about that (of course, we don't really wonder, but, well, you know what I mean).
 
What percentage is that? And how did you determine whatever percentage you will claim?


What percentage of fire ants have a slight weakness in their fifth legs?? C'mon--out with it! I predict you won't give a percentage.

What a dunce you are!


I hereby predict that you will not give a percentage, because you have no quantitative evidence worthy of the name. And should I be wrong, you will share your evidence for your claim, won't you? There's no need to keep it secret, right?


I don't know if more or less than half of you liars are Jew-haters and I don't forsee anyone conducting a survey on the subject. Your "point" is, as usual, nonexistent. Many of you loons are raving anti-Semites. Anyone with the stomach to examine the deranged drivel that pours from the crayons of your fearless leaders will figure that out. My mailbox is full of anti-Semitic ravings from twoofers who accuse me of being a Zionist shill. The pathetic sub-moron Killclown has called me a Nazi shill for the Zionists, a formulation that encapsulates his general befuddlement perfectly.

Here's an idea. Start a thread that advances the theme that there is little or no anti-Semitism in the fantasy movement. That should be easy to demonstrate.


Of course, another reason for sharing your evidence is so that lurkers can learn from a great JREF "rationalist" like yourself, how the truly critical mind of a "debunker" operates.


Any lurkers are watching my critical mind shred your embarrassingly feeble attempts at deception. Business as usual.
 
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The key to painting: reach for the biggest brush you can handle

Can we just put arm-bands on RedIbis and Metamars and get on with it?


By the way, I've only been watching this thread out of the corner of my eye, but I'm a little confused.....

It seems Pomeroo and others are claiming - or at least strongly insinuating - that those who say WTC7 might have been a CD are anti-Semitic, because the owner is Jewish.

Does that mean anyone who thinks WTC1 and WTC2 might have been CDs is also anti-Semitic?
 
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Can we just put an arm-band on RedIbis and get on with it?


By the way, I've only been watching this thread out of the corner of my eye, but I'm a little confused.....

It seems Pomeroo and others on this thread are claiming that those who say WTC7 might have been a CD are anti-Semitic, because the owner is Jewish.

Does that mean anyone who thinks WTC1 and WTC2 might have been CDs is also anti-Semitic?


This is, staggering as the thought may be, beneath your standards, Max. The collapse of WTC 7 cannot be made to fit into any faintly coherent conspiracy theory. The Impossibly Vast Conspiracy blew up the Towers to conquer the world for Halliburton and to elect more Democrats to Congress. That second goal proved a resounding success. The gigantic cabal, however, demolished WTC 7 solely to leave clues for really stupid guys. When members of your evil, brain-dead movement slander Larry Silverstein, they are incapable of expressing the exact nature of his crimes. As many conspiracy liars are raving Jew-haters, it is a reasonable assumption that a significant percentage of those who smear Silverstein simply require a Jewish villain. Obviously, some of the liars who prattle about explosives in the Towers are anti-Semites, but the Towers are central to twoofer mythology. WTC 7 is a tack-on. Its collapse makes utterly no sense, viewed as part of a conspiracy. Only the presence of an evil Jew keeps this fantasy afloat.
 
There is a red, wading bird very deep in your head. You cannot even post without referring to it.

Don't flatter yourself, RedIbis.

Your "rinse and repeat" nonsense, which you've blathered on about several times in the past, is no more convincing this time than it was the last several times you've used it.

It seems that when you find yourself unable to respond meaningfully to another poster as a result of your own failings and your own inability to support your baseless and unfounded accusations with anything approaching facts or evidence, you revert to blathering that [someone] has you [a red bird] "deep in [their] heads" etc. It is a particularly stupid and ludicrously silly thing to say even once, never mind the numerous times that you have repeated it.

Readers realize that it is just another one of your poor attempts to get yourself out of yet another corner into which you've painted yourself.

However, you are not fooling anyone but yourself. Nobody here gives a darn about you (or your avatar), and nobody gives a darn about your bleating. What we care about is facts and evidence, and you are sorely lacking in both. You make all manner of unfounded allegations and accusations against innocent people, yet you never back them up with anything approaching facts or evidence.

So, don't bother repeating your "red bird in your head" BS over and over. Nobody's buying it, and it's way, way past its "sell by" date.


ETA: And as to the OP and following discussion, have you ever managed to come up with an answer to the question about what exactly it is that you have repeatedly accused Larry Silverstein of "lying through his dentures" about? I seem to recall that you have repeatedly failed and refused to support your baseless accusations and that you have fled from the threads in which you made your repeated unfounded, unsupported accusations.
 
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What percentage of fire ants have a slight weakness in their fifth legs?? C'mon--out with it! I predict you won't give a percentage.

What a dunce you are!





I don't know if more or less than half of you liars are Jew-haters and I don't forsee anyone conducting a survey on the subject. Your "point" is, as usual, nonexistent.
Incorrect. In fact, you're helping me prove my point since, as I predicted, you would not state a percentage. (And if you had, you would not produce any evidence for your claim.) You babble about a "high" percentage, but can't tell us how high that is.

BTW, since "more or less than half of you liars are Jew-haters" is identically the set of {any percentage such that "you liars are Jew-haters"} - { exactly 50% such that "you liars are Jew-haters"}, that means that you have no idea how many "liars" are "Jew-haters", except that it's not exactly 50%. (And, of course, you really don't know whether or not it's exactly 50%, either.)

Which is my point. Your 'arguments' below

Many of you loons are raving anti-Semites. Anyone with the stomach to examine the deranged drivel that pours from the crayons of your fearless leaders will figure that out. My mailbox is full of anti-Semitic ravings from twoofers who accuse me of being a Zionist shill. The pathetic sub-moron Killclown has called me a Nazi shill for the Zionists, a formulation that encapsulates his general befuddlement perfectly.
taken literally, proves nothing to me about the 911 Truth movement, as a whole. We've all gotten emails from some dudes claiming that they have a can't lose business proposition in Nigeria, but only require X dollars to realize their riches. Just what are we supposed to conclude from such emails - that all Nigerians are charlatans? That a "high percentage" of Nigerians are charlatans? Or that any percentage ( except possibly 50% :) ) could be charlatans?

Tell me, has it ever occurred to you that the person sending such an email might not be a native of Nigeria, at all? This would be analogous to emails being sent by a shill, deliberately smearing Jews, for purposes of disinformation. The ultimate purpose being to allow people like yourself to turn around and smear the 911 Truth Movement.

Here's an idea. Start a thread that advances the theme that there is little or no anti-Semitism in the fantasy movement. That should be easy to demonstrate.
No, actually, it'd be very difficult to demonstrate. In fact, since the same sort of real research that could show, quantitatively, that anti-Semitism is rife in the 911 Truth Movement could also show that it is not, asserting this with real confidence is just as hard as asserting it's opposite. Your standards of proof, though, are so flimsy, that if I was willing to similarly adopt some cheesy criteria, it should be relatively easy to determine this.

E.g., I could request that the next newsletter to the membership of the Scholars for 911 Truth and Justice include a questionairre, asking
1) "Are you anti-Semitic?"

and, borrowing from your ludicrous statement earlier

2) "If you believe that the collapse of WTC 7 was via CD, and if you were then informed that Silverstein was not Jewish, would you then reverse your opinion and believe that the WTC 7 collapse was not via CD?"

The results of such a survey* are easy to predict, since even if there was anti-Semitism above 'normal', most people would not want to admit to it.

However, for the shallow of mind, that might find great significance regarding the character of the Nigerian people based upon the crap in their email box, such considerations are besides the point. The bonanza-in-Nigeria emails keep on a-comin', and what further proof could a "rationalist", indeed, a "triumphant rationalist", require? Apparently, for some "triumphant rationalists", no further proof at all.

I have a much better suggestion. Since you must be getting tired bashing all of us "loons" all the time, why don't you write to the Anti-Defamation League, and ask them to sponsor some real research into the CT community, to see if there is some statistically improbable spike in anti-Semitism? Since somebody taking ADL money would probably be prejudiced to deliver what they thought the ADL wanted, extra care would have to be taken to find honest and reputable researchers.

Of course, since science depends upon independent verification, most scientists would chose to wait as the 911 Truther/Anti-Semitism body of research began to accumulate, until a picture might emerge that one could confidently point to and say "the 911 Truth Community is X% more likely to be anti-Semitic than non-Truthers".

If X > 0, that should make you happy, though if X is also less than 5, say, your joy would be greatly diminished.

Although I'm sure that a "triumphant rationalist" like yourself can't imagine this, if the 911 Truth Community was less likely to be anti-Semitic than non-Truthers, you may have to find yourself another hobby.

Any lurkers are watching my critical mind shred your embarrassingly feeble attempts at deception. Business as usual.
Funny, but I don't feel embarrassed, at all. How about you?


* Of course, such a survey lacks a control group. Finding a control group for 2) is probably difficult, but finding a control group for 1) should be relatively easy. I don't think most of the population knows about the collapse of WTC 7.
 
It seems Pomeroo and others are claiming - or at least strongly insinuating - that those who say WTC7 might have been a CD are anti-Semitic, because the owner is Jewish.

Any representation of somebody else's argument that starts with "It seems..." is well on the way to being a strawman argument, and you've gone the rest of the way here, Max. The point is not that those who say WTC7 might have been a CD are anti-Semitic. It's that the specific accusations against Silverstein, and the very public harrassment he's suffered as a result of those accusations, may have been motivated by antisemitism. That's not to say that those repeating them are necessarily anti-Semites; however, I strongly suspect that some of those repeating them are at least partly motivated by latent anti-Semitism, and that the originators of the allegations may have been similarly motivated. There are plenty of strands of 9-11 conspiracy theories that are simply rooted in general distrust of authority, and others that are rooted in trying to look clever in an unconventional way (not pointing any fingers ;)), but there are undoubtedly outspoken anti-Semites who originated ideas that have gained considerable currency in the 9-11 truth movement.

Dave
 
Unless, of course, the real purpose of that bit of verbal diarrhea is to smear you. In which case, it makes a lot of sense, though it's still illogical.

Repeat after me:

911 Truther , Jew Hater
911 Truther , Jew Hater
911 Truther , Jew Hater
911 Truther , Jew Hater
911 Truther , Jew Hater
911 Truther , Jew Hater
911 Truther , Jew Hater
911 Truther , Jew Hater
911 Truther , Jew Hater
911 Truther , Jew Hater
.
.
.
(repeat for 10 years)
.
.
.
911 Truther , Jew Hater


(Best done while staring at a rotating spiral, BTW, with 'Twilight Zone' or 'My Favorite Martian' sound effects playing in the background.)

Is it starting to make sense, now? If the people who blather on about their superior critical thinking skills say so, surely it must make more sense. Yes? No?

Such a small nugget, such a large response.
 
I guess words fail you. Nothing new, there. Do you really think pictures will make the difference?

For the shallow of mind, of course, endless repetition of the smear-meme will suffice, even without pictures. You may dupe a few more people with the pictures, though.

The key thing is repetition. To make the smear settle in to people's subconscious mind, so that it's internalized and they view it as 'natural', 'logical', 'given', 'obvious', etc., you need to repeat, repeat, repeat.

Shallow minds should not dive into the deep end of the pool. There be sharks!
 
Any representation of somebody else's argument that starts with "It seems..." is well on the way to being a strawman argument, and you've gone the rest of the way here, Max.

Dave

I took MP's point to be revealed by

Does that mean anyone who thinks WTC1 and WTC2 might have been CDs is also anti-Semitic?

Back in the "old days", before people knew about WTC7 and "pull it", many still knew about WTC1 and WTC2, whose leaseholder was the same Silverstein that we are talking about.

Back in those old days, were 911 Truthers who believed that the collapse of WTC1 and WTC2 was CD, and that Silverstein was the leaseholder, also due (at least partly) to anti-Semitism?

For those trying to smear the 911 Truth Movement as a whole, that must be the case. Silverstein was no more or less Jewish after the knowledge of WTC7 became widespread, as before.

Why, then, are not the smearers also pushing the equivalent, pre-WTC7-common-knowledge-in-the-911-Truth-Movement-days anti-Semitic smear?
 
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