Andrews Air Force Base on 9/11

[JamesB]

I enjoy the rolling out of this debunkable spewage you guys post. It lets me know, from this bastion of official lie slurpage, just how thin the veneer covering this treasonous set of acts is.

If i had a good audio video operator, and an hour on a prime time netowrk, i would have these people scurrying into the rat holes they belong.

The plausibility of a standdown dwarfs the official, three times morphed slime we have been told vai official channels.

2007 will be a good year for the truth!

Just wait until Loose Change Final Cut comes out!

Dennis Kucinich has introduced impeachment proceedings against Dick Cheney, it is only a matter of time!

CIT has a witness which will blow the lid off the 9/11 coverup!

David Ray Griffin's next book (insert name here) will put 9/11 truth over the top!

The Shell Game is the tool to expose 9/11 truth to the masses...

 

[MikeW]

Okay, roundhead. Pretend you have a case. Ignore evidence. Hurl insults: yes, that'll make you more credible. And I know why you're doing this. It's because you think that if you don't concede anything important, then you win.

But, guess what?

You're wrong.

We don't have to make you admit anything. We don't have to win you over, or force you to concede a single point. All we have to do is put forward the evidence, and wait for you to show that you have no answers other than to dodge, ignore arguments and fling ad-homs. And that's how we win.

 

[Drudgewire]

You do a very poor job of defending the standdown, very poor.

Defending the stand down? THERE WAS NO ING STAND DOWN!!!

 

[The Big Dog]

I enjoy the rolling out of this debunkable spewage you guys post. It lets me know, from this bastion of official lie slurpage, just how thin the veneer covering this treasonous set of acts is.

If i had a good audio video operator, and an hour on a prime time netowrk, i would have these people scurrying into the rat holes they belong.
The plausibility of a standdown dwarfs the official, three times morphed slime we have been told vai official channels.

Wow, Sir, I don't use the word hero very often, but you are probably the greatest American Hero in US History.... is what I would be saying if you knew how to use a Video camera and post a video on You Tube.

^^rolls eyes^^

"bastion of official lie slurpage." Giggle!!

/Say hi to Craig-y for us when you get back to the CIT Tree Fort! Ask him if he did the calculations yet to support his flyover theory. Nah, don't bother, we know he can't.

 

[Slayhamlet]

His statement makes clear he knows how to intercept a plane.He needed do anything else that morning. It would be foolish to think a fighter pilot doesnt know air interception.

All they have to be told is where, and what to do.

You do a very poor job of defending the standdown, very poor.

Those two fighters at Langley could have flown on burners to the Pentagon, dealt with 77, and landed at Andrews, same with the Otis assets.

The fact is, they just plain didnt want them getting there, and did a very poor job of balancing out how to look competent and aggressive all while creeping to intercepts, and late at that.

I enjoy the rolling out of this debunkable spewage you guys post. It lets me know, from this bastion of official lie slurpage, just how thin the veneer covering this treasonous set of acts is.

If i had a good audio video operator, and an hour on a prime time netowrk, i would have these people scurrying into the rat holes they belong.

The plausibility of a standdown dwarfs the official, three times morphed slime we have been told vai official channels.

 

[roundhead]

Wow, the stupidity of your posts are really piling up. You still haven't gotten it that in order for aircraft to intercept a target, they have to have a target to intercept. They are not going to fly around all over the place chasing each and every blip on a radar. NORAD did not know that flight 77 was a hijacked aircraft until 2 minutes prior to it's crash. You will claim that they "knew," yet cannot back that statement. As has been proven, military aircraft aren't just launched because someones transponder goes off. They have to be informed by the FAA which aircraft are suspected to be hijacked. This concept seems to be WAY over your head.

The Washington air corridor was closed down shortly after 9 that morning.There werent a ton of planes (perfectly visible on military radars)flying around without transponders.

FAA protocol (which i have already posted)would ASSUME( and with certainty after 9 that morning)that an offcourse jetliner without a transponder was a highjack. And immediately ask for help. They're byword is to assume the worst.

From my USN days aboard the Kennedy, even back then an F14 had the ability to track and engage seven targets at the same time. This was nearly thirty years ago, and i doubt technology has went backwards.
In fact, the UYK-7, the computer used then on the F14 was something i was trained on and troubleshot.

To think an airborne F16 over DC wouldnt see an airliner inbound in time to intercept it is ludicrious.

And dont try and tell me nobody knew 77 was a rogue until 9:35. Thats the bigest crock i have EVER heard.

As i said earlier, its plain as day, confusion was faked, planes were vectored intentionally errantly, and slowly.If at all. Not to mention the coincidence of wargames morphing the Exact same circumstances that day, a 1 in 365 chance.
And military officials along with Cheney and his hatchetman Rumpot have done a poor job of covering they're buttocks ever since.


Ever notice what 9/11 official slurpers defend???

Constantly changing and morphing stories, that as they are uncovered for the lies they are, they move to the next version of the lie, figuring people will tire of chasing the facts through the maze and haze. I wont and havent.

The commision report is full of bald faced lies that havent been amended to reflect the truth to this day.Even with a 100% beatdown as in the towers construction, the lie is left to lay, unabridged.

The untruthers bible and its falsities(Popular mechanics)continues to be regarded as a bible , in spite of its now outdated lie regarding pancake collapse, which still remains , as though it once was and still is the truth.

Norad claimed no interceptors were in the air before the Pentagon hit, that lie has been changed several times, to reflect the commisions third version.

Nothing but lies, and still you guys hug the story like a fat wife on a cold winters night.
Shame on you.

But hey, it took Stinett 17 years of study to finally get Pearl Harbor right. Hopefully it wont take that long here.
Except unlike Stinett, who actually defends FDR, in the csae of 9/11, it isnt defensible.

 

[cludgie]

In fact, the UYK-7, the computer used then on the F14 was something i was trained on and troubleshot.

You mean they had mini-computers normally designed for use on ships in F14's? Wow.

http://www.kh6bb.org/new7.jpg

Somehow I don't think you even born in the 70's, let alone serving on the USS John F Kennedy.

 

[Shrinker]

About what are you writing about?

I'll tell you about what I was writing about...

Although the conversation has moved on while I was out consuming my NWO pizza and beer, I don't think my point has been addressed.

Both you and roundhead seem to think that because Andrews AFB is close to the Capitol is therefore is safe to assume that its mission was to police the small (roundhead's word) area of restricted airspace over Washington.

You have already proved yourself wrong with your own quote. Andrews did not have armed jets on 9/11 as you have already shown. Andrews needed one hour to launch a fully armed jet. What is the point of defending an area that can be crossed in about a minute with jets on a one hour scramble time?

I know you're a truther but try to think it through.

 

[johnny karate]

roundhead and bio:

If what you are alleging is true (that there was a stand down order in effect the morning of 9/11, thus implicating elements of the military in a conspiracy to commit and cover-up up mass murder), then why hasn't this particular bombshell been discerned and/or revealed by a single MSM outlet, investigative body, or law enforcement agency on the planet?

 

[cludgie]

And more to the point, don't you think someone would've been a teeny bit miffed at Andrews if they had armed and crewed jets stood around on quick alert and weren't asked to join in?

 

[lapman]

The Washington air corridor was closed down shortly after 9 that morning.There werent a ton of planes (perfectly visible on military radars)flying around without transponders.

Yet you cannot provide any proof that 77 was on military radar 100% of the time it was on it's way towards the Pentagon. You are making the faulty assumption that, on 9/11 they were tagging all blips that didn't have a transponder return.

FAA protocol (which i have already posted)would ASSUME( and with certainty after 9 that morning)that an offcourse jetliner without a transponder was a highjack. And immediately ask for help.

As been shown, the FAA was slow in asking. Remember, this is an unprecidented event.

From my USN days aboard the Kennedy,

The immaturity of your posts show that this is a lie.

even back then an F14 had the ability to track and engage seven targets at the same time. This was nearly thirty years ago, and i doubt technology has went backwards.
In fact, the UYK-7, the computer used then on the F14 was something i was trained on and troubleshot.

With all the radar returns in the area, figuring out which target to attack is a bit hard. BTW, the AN/UYK-7 was used on the Minuteman system, not the F-14s. Thank you for exposing yourself as a fraud.

To think an airborne F16 over DC wouldnt see an airliner inbound in time to intercept it is ludicrious.

Again, 77 wasn't the only airliner in the air. Do you have proof that the F-16 weapons system tracks transponder returns?

And dont try and tell me nobody knew 77 was a rogue until 9:35. Thats the bigest crock i have EVER heard.

There were several planes that were considered "rogue" that day.

As i said earlier, its plain as day, confusion was faked, planes were vectored intentionally errantly, and slowly.If at all. Not to mention the coincidence of wargames morphing the Exact same circumstances that day, a 1 in 365 chance.

This is the biggest lie of the "Truth Movement." A scenario like has never been a part of any training exercise prior to 9/11.

And military officials along with Cheney and his hatchetman Rumpot have done a poor job of covering they're buttocks ever since.


Ever notice what 9/11 official slurpers defend???

Constantly changing and morphing stories, that as they are uncovered for the lies they are, they move to the next version of the lie, figuring people will tire of chasing the facts through the maze and haze. I wont and havent.

The commision report is full of bald faced lies that havent been amended to reflect the truth to this day.Even with a 100% beatdown as in the towers construction, the lie is left to lay, unabridged.

The untruthers bible and its falsities(Popular mechanics)continues to be regarded as a bible , in spite of its now outdated lie regarding pancake collapse, which still remains , as though it once was and still is the truth.

Norad claimed no interceptors were in the air before the Pentagon hit, that lie has been changed several times, to reflect the commisions third version.

Nothing but lies, and still you guys hug the story like a fat wife on a cold winters night.
Shame on you.

And here is what conspiracy liars such as yourself keep doing. You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc. You have been poven a fraud and a liar.

 

[SpitfireIX]

From the 9/11 visibility project:

Sitting on the Andrews ramp just 10 miles away, were two fully armed and fueled supersonic interceptors tasked with protecting the capitol from airborne terrorist threats on 15 minutes' notice!


Can somebody kindly show me information showing this statement to be a lie??

Burden-of-proof shifting. There is no source given for the claim. The burden of proof is on you and your fellow conspiracists to demonstrate that it's true, rather than upon anyone else to prove that it's false. That aside, the AW&ST article I linked in my previous post disproves the assertion.

Or why these planes werent at full speed on 9/11:

Nearly half-an-hour after receiving the belated order to scramble, two Falcons coasted in over the burning Pentagon. Slowed down to just 410 mph, it had taken the 1,500 mph-capable fighters 19 minutes to cover the 130 miles from Virginia. It should have taken just over seven minutes to reach the Pentagon - at about the time Flight 77 was making a predatory circle overhead. [NORAD, Sep 18, 2001; USAF]

Or why these guys werent vectored in at full speed"

There are two issues; one of which is incontrovertible and not subject to interpretation or spin. In order to fly above the speed of sound, the interceptors would have had to have used their afterburners. I'm not sure which block F-16 they were flying, but the approximate thrust and specific fuel consumption for the models equipped with the Pratt & Whitney F-100^WP engine is as follows:

Maximum thrust, no afterburner ("dry"): 17,800 lbf
Maximum thrust, full afterburner ("wet"): 29,160 lbf

Specific fuel consumption, no afterburner ("dry"): 0.76 lb/(lbf·h)
Specific fuel consumption, full afterburner ("wet"): 1.94 lb/(lbf·h)

Multiplying the above gives fuel consumption of about 13,500 lb/hr at military power, and about 55,500 lb/hr at full afterburner.

The F-16C's internal fuel capacity is about 7,000 lbs, and the aircraft can carry an additional 8,000 lbs in external tanks (see here). So flying at maximum afterburner, the plane will run out of gas in about 16 minutes).

Further, carrying drop tanks severely degrades the aircraft's supersonic performance, due to drag. So had the F-16s actually flown at maximum afterburner, they would have been nearly out of fuel when they arrived.

With no other bogeys on eastern seaboard scopes, air combat doctrine dictates that the two unemployed Otis F-15s already in the area be redirected to "honor the threat" of an incoming flying bomb, 330 miles out. Even loafing along, the fighters would have more than 20minutes to confront Flight 77 before it neared the Pentagon.

The FAA controller who was handling American 77 assumed that it had crashed when its transponder went off. When it was assumed hijacked, NORAD didn't know where to start looking. It wasn't picked up again until just a few minutes before it hit the Pentagon.

Instead, Pentagon professionals defending their country's nerve centers waited more than an hour after watching Flight 11 go rogue - including 30 critical minutes after Flight 77 turned abruptly toward them and the nearby White House - before scrambling two F-16's out of Langley Air Force Base to protect the capitol.

See above.

It stinks to high heaven . . .

The so-called Truth Movement is what stinks to high heaven.

and anybody that doesnt question why any possible interceptors werent flown wide open that morning should be ashamed of themselves.

Anyone who would so ignorantly and arrogantly make false accusations of treason and neglect of duty against members of the US military should be ashamed of himself.

I know as a veteran i am, and find it impossible to believe this comedy of lies.

And, of course, all of the current and former US Air Force and Navy fighter pilots out there who aren't speaking out are in on it, aren't they?

Supporting the official story is, in my patriotic paranoid mind, treasonous.

Fixed that for you.

 

[roundhead]

You mean they had mini-computers normally designed for use on ships in F14's? Wow.

http://www.kh6bb.org/new7.jpg

Somehow I don't think you even born in the 70's, let alone serving on the USS John F Kennedy.

Yes, they sure did. Better do your homework, that was the fire control CPU on Tomcats back in the late 70's.
I actually worked mostly on the NTDS system(Naval tactital data system) , which on the JFK had Univac Alpha's ganged together, and 1218's for payroll.


Btw, i was on the JFK when she made at that time a first(as far as i know)cruise for an East Coast carrier.

We sailed through the Red sea, made a port call at Perth, Australia, and shortly after i got out, via Diego Garcia. Where upon arrival, we were stripped searched by the Britts, who have half the Island. Then to Athens, then Rota, and finally Norfolk.
I have spent many nights tied up to pier 12.

 

[The Big Dog]

Well, Roundhead has given us a sterling example of an argument from personal incredulity.

Super.

And he fleshes it out with insult after insult.

And if he just knew how to work a camera, he would do more than rant on the internet, and suck up to his pals at the CIT.

 

[Drudgewire]

This is the biggest lie of the "Truth Movement." A scenario like has never been a part of any training exercise prior to 9/11. And here is what conspiracy liars such as yourself keep doing. You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc.

Man I hope all that fits in my signature.

 

[roundhead]

Burden-of-proof shifting. There is no source given for the claim. The burden of proof is on you and your fellow conspiracists to demonstrate that it's true, rather than upon anyone else to prove that it's false. That aside, the AW&ST article I linked in my previous post disproves the assertion.





There are two issues; one of which is incontrovertible and not subject to interpretation or spin. In order to fly above the speed of sound, the interceptors would have had to have used their afterburners. I'm not sure which block F-16 they were flying, but the approximate thrust and specific fuel consumption for the models equipped with the Pratt & Whitney F-100^WP engine is as follows:

Maximum thrust, no afterburner ("dry"): 17,800 lbf
Maximum thrust, full afterburner ("wet"): 29,160 lbf

Specific fuel consumption, no afterburner ("dry"): 0.76 lb/(lbf·h)
Specific fuel consumption, full afterburner ("wet"): 1.94 lb/(lbf·h)

Multiplying the above gives fuel consumption of about 13,500 lb/hr at military power, and about 55,500 lb/hr at full afterburner.

The F-16C's internal fuel capacity is about 7,000 lbs, and the aircraft can carry an additional 8,000 lbs in external tanks (see here). So flying at maximum afterburner, the plane will run out of gas in about 16 minutes).

Further, carrying drop tanks severely degrades the aircraft's supersonic performance, due to drag. So had the F-16s actually flown at maximum afterburner, they would have been nearly out of fuel when they arrived.




The FAA controller who was handling American 77 assumed that it had crashed when its transponder went off. When it was assumed hijacked, NORAD didn't know where to start looking. It wasn't picked up again until just a few minutes before it hit the Pentagon.




See above.




The so-called Truth Movement is what stinks to high heaven.




Anyone who would so ignorantly and arrogantly make false accusations of treason and neglect of duty against members of the US military should be ashamed of himself.




And, of course, all of the current and former US Air Force and Navy fighter pilots out there who aren't speaking out are in on it, aren't they?




Fixed that for you.

I have no problem with your fuel usage. The Langley fighters on full burn would have been there in 6-7 minutes, and after finding and dealing with 77, could have easily been on the ground in 10-12 minutes at Andrews. They only needed burners to get there, not once on station, dealing with 77. Seven minutes max on burners.

Pilots do what they are told, and follow orders. Its plenty obvious they werent told to hurry.

 

[cludgie]

Yes, they sure did. Better do your homework, that was the fire control CPU on Tomcats back in the late 70's.

How strange then that everything one reads claims the AWG-9 was the Tomcat's fire control system.

 

[pomeroo]

Liar...i have showed the mission statement of Andrews 9/11, its obvious ability post 9/11. And the fact that no fly zones existed before and after 9/11I think its more than fair to state Andrews is and was the enforcement arm of ANY no fly zone before and after 9/11. In spite of the poor arguement being made it wasnt.

Frankly, weapons loaded or not, it would still have been a deterrent to 77, even if ramming it was a decision to be made. And i am far from convinced a ready aircraft in the Capitol area did have some sort of ordenance aboard.

All this, its never happened before stuff isnt convincing. The Titanic was unsinkable, but it carried lifeboats.

We have never had nukes fired on us, but spend billions in defense of them.

A conspiracy liar--a banned conspiracy liar--cannot accuse a rationalist of lying. Your deception was exposed, as usual. There was no stand-down and no protocols were in place for shooting down a commercial airliner on a domestic flight.

You believe that American fighter pilots are trained to "ram" their opponents in kamikaze fashion? Yes, that sounds right. Why shouldn't you believe that?

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Now that we have the timeline, let's analyze it. Take the first jet: American Airlines Flight 11:

• 8:13am, AA11 is hijacked.
• 8:37am, the Boston Center ATC informs NEADS of AA11's hijacking and requests an interception.
• 8:38am, the two F-15s on alert status at Otis ANGB (Air National Guard Base) are put on “Battle Stations” (pilots enter their aircraft and await the signal to launch)
• 8:39am NEADS contact Boston Center ATC and discovers they do not know where AA11 is (because the aircraft’s transponder has been turned off).
• 8:44am, despite having no coordinates for intercept, NEADS decide to launch the Otis aircraft anyway.
• 8:46am AA11 hits the North Tower of the World Trade Center.

So, NEADS knew about AA11 for a total of 9 minutes. They didn't even decide to get aircraft off the ground for another 7 minutes, and note that was just the decision to do so, not the actual launch itself. Even if the F-15's launched that very second, they had a total of 2 minutes to get to AA11.

• 8:46am, the stoplight at the Alert Barn on Otis ANGB turns from red to green, and the two F-15s taxi out to the runway.

That's the first flight; at this point in the morning AA11 had already hit, and the first jets tasked with intercepting it were only then getting off the ground.




Now, for the second NY flight, United Airlines 175:

• 8:44am, UA 175 is hijacked.
• 8:51am, Boston Center notifies NEADS that an aircraft has flown into the WTC. NEADS immediately calls New York Center, and discovers they do not yet know about the incident. This is the second aircraft incident of the morning (NEADS do not know it is AA11).

So here, note that NEADS still doesn't have a full picture, and their jets are still tasked towards AA11.

• 8:52am, UA175 turns off course and fails to respond to communication. New York Center knows the aircraft has been hijacked.
• 8:52am, NEADS decide to direct the Otis fighters to New York City anyway.

Remember, Otis ANGB is in Massachusetts. The jets have 200-some miles to fly to get to New York City.

• 8:55am, confusion begins to arise as to whether the aircraft that hit the WTC was AA11. Confirmation is required from the airline company (who independently track their aircraft), however American Airlines does not confirm the fate of AA11. Airlines routinely go into “information lockdown” when a crisis occurs.

So in short, they're still trying to figure out information about AA11 while intercepting UA175. And AA77 is being hijacked at this time - 8:54am - and no one knew about it yet. This is just the second aircraft that lost it's transponder signal (not the 3rd; UA175 never shut off it's transponder), but read the timeline and observe what happened. The Indianapolis Center ATC thought it crashed. They are not aware of the hijackings, or of the AA11 impact into the North Tower yet.

Also note the conversation between NEADS and the Boston ATC:

DOOLEY (to Boston): Master Sergeant Dooley here. We need to have—are you giving confirmation that American 11 was the one—
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): No, we’re not gonna confirm that at this time. We just know an aircraft crashed in and …
DOOLEY: You—are you—can you say—is anyone up there tracking primary on this guy still?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): No. The last [radar sighting] we have was about 15 miles east of J.F.K., or eight miles east of J.F.K. was our last primary hit. He did slow down in speed. The primary that we had, it slowed down below—around to 300 knots.
DOOLEY: And then you lost ‘em?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Yeah, and then we lost ‘em.

Yes, AA11 was picked up on primary radar. Look at the reaction. This is what happened in the real world when AA11 dropped it's transponder signal - confusion, confirmation, much communication to attempt to clear up the confusion. But note especially their description of the location. It's not like there's automatic communication between an FAA ATC and a military jet with intercept orders; word is passed along. This is what I meant earlier about "protocols being followed". That's something Roundhead's ignoring here.

• 8:56am, Indianapolis Center notifies the FAA that AA77 has been hijacked (realizing it did not crash).
• 9:03am, NEADS is notified of a second hijacking. UA175 hits the South Tower of the WTC. A number of NEADS personnel witness it live on CNN.

Now, step back and look at things:

At 8:52am, NEADS directs their jets to New York. At 9:03, UA175 hits WTC2. 11 minutes. To cover 200+ miles. With no shootdown authorization. Even though there was only 11 minutes, the jets still get there quite fast, but regardless, it's still too late.

And AA77 is heading towards Washington, and NEADS doesn't know about it yet.

What's Andrews AFB doing this whole time? Who knows? They're not a part of NORAD. The FAA's procedure is to contact NEADS (NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector group). NEADS would talk to fighters it owns, not fighters it has no authority over. It doesn't occur to them to try getting non-NORAD fighters and bases involved until much later, and that still didn't involve Andrews because Langley had responsibility over the area containing Washington DC.


So, already two aircraft hit, two F-15s on the way to New York, and the ATC and NEADS people are still trying to figure out the identity of the first jet that hit, and if it was indeed AA11 or not.

• 9:07am, FAA civilian controllers direct the Otis fighters to enter a holding pattern over Long Island. They are worried about the fighters colliding with civilian aircraft in the densely packed airspace over New York. NEADS weapon controllers are not happy.
  NEADS weapons controllers request the launch of the two F-16 fighters at Alert on Langley AFB (Air Force Base) in Virginia. However this request is refused by NEADS command. Instead the fighters are put on Battle Stations. NEADS command are concerned that the Langley fighters are the only remaining aircraft they have – if both pairs are airborne at the same time both pairs will run out of fuel at the same time.
• 9:21am Boston Center notifies NEADS of a third hijacked aircraft, headed for Washington DC. They overhear an FAA conversation which mentions AA11 is still airborne. In hindsight, that was a mistake, but they didn't know that at the time. Based on this and AA11’s previous known heading they determine that it is headed for Washington DC. They notify NEADS.
• 9:22am, the Langley fighters are scrambled, however the pilots are not given a reason for a scramble. The Navy ATC handling them directs them east, over the Atlantic Ocean, to a military training airspace called Whiskey 386.
• 9:34am, in the course of a call to Washington Center, NEADS finds out about the hijacking of AA77 (bringing the day’s total – from NEADS’ point of view – to 4 hijackings (one crashed into WTC) plus the first crash into the WTC as a 5th aircraft).

Note the confusion. NEADS thinks AA11 is heading towards the Pentagon. They've just been told about AA77, and it's not detected on radar until 9:32, and even then the ATC's have to work at identifying the aircraft; recall, it's flying through an area with no primary coverage and it's transponder is off.

On top of that, they know that two jets that have already hit the World Trade Center, but they don't know which ones. This added to the confusion.

And, the fighters that have just scrambled from Langley as well as their ATC doesn't know any of this, and are being sent out over the ocean by their own military ATCs. On top of that, the fighters from Otis are in a holding pattern over Long Island. Would this be where Andrews could get involved? Sure... if someone had thought to contact them; recall, they were not a NORAD base. Why would NEADS contact them when they had no authority over them, and when they already have Langley fighters rolling (they didn't know the local ATC would send them in the wrong direction)? Also, even if they did it, would Andrews then have enough time to fuel and arm an aircraft? Recall, Andrews was not a base on alert, so they'd need time to do all that prep.

Keep in mind at this time that NEADS has assets in the air already, and had their hands full just gathering proper information, let alone getting the fighters pointed in the right direction. The Otis fighters were sent after a jet that had already hit it's target, and were cooling their heels over Long Island. The Langley fighters didn't know a darn thing yet. Everyone was still reacting to what they knew, and they didn't know about Flight 77 yet.

• 9:28am, UA93 is hijacked. NEADS does not know about it yet.
• 9:34am, NEADS notices that the F-16s are headed in the wrong direction, and contacts the Navy ATC. But they send them to Baltimore.
  
  

  NAVY A.T.C.: You’ve got [the fighters] moving east in airspace. Now you want ‘em to go to Baltimore?
  HUCKABONE: Yes, sir. We’re not gonna take ‘em in Whiskey 386 [military training airspace over the ocean].
  NAVY A.T.C.: O.K., once he goes to Baltimore, what are we supposed to do?
  HUCKABONE: Have him contact us on auxiliary frequency 2-3-4 decimal 6. Instead of taking handoffs to us and us handing ‘em back, just tell Center they’ve got to go to Baltimore.
  NAVY A.T.C.: All right, man. Stand by. We’ll get back to you.

• 9:35am Boston Centre notify NEADS of yet another unidentified aircraft flying over Washington DC. This is AA77, and this is the first they learn of it.
• 9:36am, the Langley Fighters are directed to head for the White House.
• 9:37am, AA77 hits The Pentagon. The Langley Fighters are 150 miles away.

So now, Langley's jets are heading towards a plane that already hit it's target, Otis's jets are circling over Long Island, and no one's got a certain handle yet on how many jets were hijacked to begin with, let alone how many are left to respond to.

• 9:39am, after several transmissions from the hijackers, Cleveland Center is now aware that UA93 has been hijacked. However they do not notify the military – standard procedure in the event of a hijacking is to hand control over to the FBI.

Recall, they were not involved in the events until now - Indianapolis, Boston, New York, and Washington were the only ATC centers who knew about the hijackings that had occurred up to that point. There's no way for Cleveland Center ATC to realize that the best course of action would be to contact NEADS. So they followed the procedure they were supposed to follow, which at that point left NEADS in the dark about UA93.

• 9:40am, Boston Center notifies NEADS of a possibly hijacking of Delta 1989. Unknown to Boston Centre, an ATC in Cleveland has already made contact with the crew of Delta 1989 and determined that there is no hijacking. This is the 7th aircraft incident of the day, as far as NEADS are aware. NEADS begin contacting ANG bases along the aircraft’s path, as there are no NORAD aircraft in a position to intercept.

Note that this is the first time they think about getting in touch with someone they have no authority over. Why didn't they do it sooner for AA77 and contact Andrews? Because they had the Langley fighters already inbound.

• 9:54am, a base in Selfridge, Michigan offers up fighters to intercept Delta 1989. Which dedicates military resources to a jet that's not been hijacked, but they didn't know this at the time.
• 10:07am, Baltimore Center becomes aware of an aircraft over the White House. Those turn out to be the two Langley fighters, so that was a false alarm. Cleveland Center finally notifies NEADS of the hijacking of UA93 – unaware that it has already crashed.
• 10:15am, NEADS is notified that UA93 has crashed.

-------

Note the confusion. Note the work done to get a handle on the situation. And note that the fighters did indeed respond quickly, once someone knew that they needed to get them airborne. But note too how quickly time gets sucked up in an emergency like that. It's dishonest to say that everyone had 40 minutes to respond without pointing out that they not only needed to figure out what was happening, but also needed to share info just to get to that point, and coordinate actions. This is information Roundhead is ignoring. The human element came into play that day, and everyone did the best they could with the information they had at the time. It's just that much of the information wasn't good enough to act on properly. The second tower was hit by the time the first military jets got off the ground, and that same military didn't know about the Washington DC jets until moments before they hit. Sure, the transponder went off long before that... and like I said before, the ATCs in Indianapolis thought that the jet had crashed. No one thought to look for it in the direction it came from.

So: Why do some people continue to insist on canards about the military being able to respond in an instant? We can all see that they in fact did respond damn quickly. But the civilian ATC's were in on the response, and while they, too, did a stellar job, that handoff absolutely must be taken into account. The Air Force and Air National Guard depended on info from those civilians. Forget the nonsense fantasists peddle about NORAD's radar coverage, and arguments from incredulity about their abilities; the mere fact that they kept on talking to the civilian side of air traffic control proves that they are not all-seeing inside the continental US. The blunt truth is that the reactions depended on the cooperation and coordination between the civilian and military, and it's totally naive to say that once the jets lost their transponder signals that they should have been picked up. It completely ignores the reality of the AF/ANG's posture that day, and also completely ignores the difficulties the FAA ATC's faced in just getting a grip on the events.

This is why I keep on insisting that people read Gumboot's work (which I've blatantly plagerized here, so consider this the attribution; the above bullet points are his work, with some of my stuff tacked on) and the Vanity Fair article. That shows what happened that day. Truthers can keep on bringing up arguments about alert aircraft, the speed of military jets, statements about intercepts, yadda yadda, but until they study what actually happened, they're not commenting on 9/11. They're commenting on some fantasy that doesn't take into account the realities that day.

Roundhead: Please. Read the links I've been providing. Please. You continue to make mistakes. You continue to base your posts on misapprehensions of what you believe should have been, not on the reality of how the civilian ATCs and military truly react.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/08/norad200608
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70300
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1845150&postcount=1

 

[roundhead]

Well, Roundhead has given us a sterling example of an argument from personal incredulity.

Super.

And he fleshes it out with insult after insult.

And if he just knew how to work a camera, he would do more than rant on the internet, and suck up to his pals at the CIT.

For the record, i have posted over at CIT maybe 10 times in my life. Go check. In my short time there i was able to see how Craig was railroaded over here. Hence my post (you are obviously referencing)about being here.

I have yet to form an opinion as to his findings regarding the Pentagon, and if you like read my posts over there for confirmation of that.


Regarding my Naval service, tread lightly friend. I can provide any manner of proof of my service, schools attended, duty stations, you name it. Things somebody who hasnt served wouldnt have a clue about.
Up to an including a certain hash experience inside a Tomcat engine on the Kennedy's hangar deck: