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I just have to laugh,

Virtually? That does not mean none. You made a claim the building had been pulverised you are wrong. Steven Jones even shows a large piece of rushed debri that is not steel.



I'm not talking about dust I am talking about the building debri. You said it was pulverised it was not.



You should be sorry cause once again you are wrong. This post and dave rogers prove your claim wrong.

You should have said some of the building was pulverised. This would have been an acceptable claim.

I am sure Major Tom has pictues of concrete larger than 10-100 micron size he could show you?

your right, i was wrong. its not hard to admit such things.
and i apologise for my last pot to you on the otehr thread. i was in a bad mood when i wrote it.

but youn are wrong, in my opinion, to claim that the building simply "fell down and broke into pieces". it looks to me like it was expoded into pieces.

peace
 
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Despite your terrible spelling, I think I nailed your problem. Why do you care about someone's beliefs? Why not go with physical evidence?

i thought the red chips - or unignited nanothermite is physical evidence.

jones has tested it and its chemical signature was compared to commercial thermite and it matches. it also behaves like thermite when exposed to a heat source.

jones must be confident that the red chips are indeed a form of thermite because he mentioned it in a conference after all.

the unignited nanothermite is also mentioned in the latest paper in the 911 journal http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/911andProbabilityTheory17Legge.pdf

i cant wait until it is confirmed then that is all the physical evidence we need

peace
 
i thought the red chips - or unignited nanothermite is physical evidence.

jones has tested it and its chemical signature was compared to commercial thermite and it matches. it also behaves like thermite when exposed to a heat source.

jones must be confident that the red chips are indeed a form of thermite because he mentioned it in a conference after all.

the unignited nanothermite is also mentioned in the latest paper in the 911 journal http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/911andProbabilityTheory17Legge.pdf

i cant wait until it is confirmed then that is all the physical evidence we need

peace


It's too bad that you can't wait because you will be waiting for a very long time. No thermite was used in the Twin Towers.
 
your right, i was wrong. its not hard to admit such things.
and i apologise for my last pot to you on the otehr thread. i was in a bad mood when i wrote it.

but youn are wrong, in my opinion, to claim that the building simply "fell down and broke into pieces". it looks to me like it was expoded into pieces.

peace
Your thermite fantasy is wrong. If you understood physics and could grasp the energy released just due to the building being there. E=mgh, do the math, and see why you are wrong and believe in the lies of 9/11 truth, and have pure fantasy. Education is good, 9/11 truth is the opposite of education.
 
Can somebody link me to a site that describes a commercial thermite? I can't imagine the commercial applications of any such thing, especially in the form a chips the thickness of a coat of red oxide primer.
 
http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=14105&ch=nanotech
this is a link to military not commercial thermite.

apparently some at NIST have connections to military thermite. but it never crossed their mind to test for it at WTC?

peace
You need to read the stuff you post and you would understand, it does not improve your position; you still have zero evidence of thermite at the WTC. You should pay attention and you would understand Jones made up the thermite lie 4 years after 9/11 for his own political reasons; he even lost job, he had to resign to save being fired for doing faulty research on 9/11.

The capability to recognize fraud, is a good thing, we all need practice. The nano thermite does not change the facts. What was your point? Thermite is used to weld things together. The article you posted tells how nano thermite increase desired effects of explosives, and other things as reported (I wonder if they got it right). Do you understand it does not support 9/11 truth?

You have been duped by fraud.
 
Post 48 has been addressed at least half a thousand times already on this forum. There are threads dedicated to those incorrect findings.
 
Post 48 has been addressed at least half a thousand times already on this forum. There are threads dedicated to those incorrect findings.

i have read most of the threads to my knowledge on this subject. and i know that some of the above questions could not have been addressed because chainsaw is the only one that knows the environment in which he created the spheres.

if of course all the questions have been answered why dont you present them in your own words?

peace
 
Why would I present someone else arguments in my own words when we have many many threads on the subject already? And no chainsaw is not the only one who knows the environment.

You bring up these age old issues that have been discussed to death and then wonder why everyone doesn't just jump to their feet to get you the old information every time. It's because it's been discussed to death, but you are just too lazy to go look for the information that is already there and want everyone to just repeat it all over again and again for you. Remember, you are just lemming #664587. You're not the one who has to repeat the same things over and over again just because the next conspiracy lemming comes along and thinks that he just came up with a new idea.

Tell you what there. If the spheres do indeed prove thermite was used in the collapse of the WTC, why don't you write a peer reviewed paper proving it? Why doesn't anyone? You do that, and I will go do the leg work of finding the threads that already address your little issues. Deal?
 
I appreciate all of your alternative theories, but unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the iron-rich microspheres came from one of your alternatives, I'm afraid that you haven't "debunked" anything.

That's not how it works, deep:

By showing that there are other sources of microspheres, the source of the ones Jones analyzed becomes suspect, because we do not know what created them.
 
That's not how it works, deep:

By showing that there are other sources of microspheres, the source of the ones Jones analyzed becomes suspect, because we do not know what created them.

This is worth expanding upon.

Steven Jones is making a very definite claim: that there were higher temperatures and more violent reactions in the WTC before and/or during the collapse than can be explained by a jet fuel accelerated contents fire. He advances as evidence of this the presence of microspheres, basing this on the claim that these microspheres (a) could only have been formed immediately before or during the collapse, (b) could only have been formed at temperatures above 1500ºC, and (c) could only have been formed in the vicinity of a violent chemical reaction, and on the additional claim that (d) these conditions could not have been created in a jet fuel accelerated contents fire.

That's a heavy burden of proof for the microspheres to bear. Jones is behaving unusually for a conspiracy theorist here, in that he's implicitly tying himself to a chain of proof rather than highlighting a trivial anomaly, claiming incompatibility with the accepted sequence of events, and refusing to articulate an alternative hypothesis (although he is still sticking to the last part of this strategy). The upshot of this is that there are four exclusive conditions for Jones's evidence to meet, and if any one of them is shown to be invalid, the entire chain of logic collapses. And it's not necessary to prove that an alternative scenario must have occurred; it's only necessary to demonstrate that it could have occurred, because Jones's argument is based on the premise that formation of the microspheres is impossible in any other way than he suggests.

So how is Jones doing with the four links in his chain? Not at all well. Crazy Chainsaw's experiments show that (c) is quite invalid, and by implication (b) and/or (d); although the fire could not have produced the required temperatures over a large volume, it's quite possible that processes within the fire could have done so over the very small volumes required to produce microspheres, and there are physical processes that could also have created the requred temperatures and finely divided pieces of iron required. And, of course, the elephant in the room is (a); Jones has not only failed to demonstrate that the formation of the microspheres took place just before or during the collapse, he appears to have made no effort whatsoever to do so.

Jones, therefore, is arguing that the microspheres imply thermite based on a chain of reasoning with four major links. The falsification of any one of these links breaks the chain of reasoning. All four have been falsified.

Jones has no argument.

Dave
 
i cant wait until it is confirmed then that is all the physical evidence we need


I can't wait for the Lions to win the Super Bowl. Maybe we can get some beers and wait together.

Incidentally, how much beer do you think we'll need to last us until "forever?" :p
 
Crazy Chainsaw:

In the Boston conferance Professor Jones claims to possess unignited samples of thermite or “red chips”. He claims that he has compared the chemical composition of these red chips with commercial thermite and accrording to the slides the results appear to match.

(i)Is the combinaton of Fe-O-(K)-Al-Si unique to thermite, or not?

NO that signature is a thermite signature of cheap commercial grade thermite, usually that type also includes sulfur to react with the Si., from cheaper grades of iron ores not well separated.
It can also be found in other steel products, and in glues used on sanding and grinding disks primarily those using aluminum oxide grit on steel for cutting steel which incidentally leaves microspheres of steel and aluminum oxide from the high temperatures involved ins steel erosion.

Now assuming that the above combination of chemicals are not unique to thermite then the next question (and this applies to all the microsphericules mentioned in this paper ) is can it only be produced at high temperatures exceeding that of the WTC fire or can it also be produced at temperatures within that of the WTC fire? You claim that they can be produced at temperatures within the range of the WTC fire and I have no reason to doubt you. However

Oxidation reactions can produce microsphericals at the temperature of the World Trade Center fires.


(ii)Is there any physical difference between micro sphericules produced at high temperatures and those produced at lower temperatures?

Yes there is, the spiracles produced though combustion of the metals themselves will be different from those produced from temperature alone in an oxygen depleted atmosphere, however even heating will produce oxidation events so some times it is impossible to tell which sphere is which.

I note that in your post #235 you display a photo of a kinda “purple hollowed sphere” that seems substantially larger and with a different colour than the microspheres in this paper

Lighting could explain the color difference or a difference in camera setting, color is really a bad indicator to go by, as is size the micro spheres or spiracles can be produced in multiple sizes but only those of a specific small size will become airborne.
In another post you indicate the environment wherein you created microspheres: I was unaware of the occurance of back-draft in the impact zone. Is there evidence to support the assumption of backdraft in the impact zone?
The condition were right for gas and dust entrapment on multiple levels of the buildings, back Draft like explosions were even noted by fire fighters, they are common in fires.
Carbon dust and Carbon monoxide both are explosive compounds.

(iii)Could your experimental microspheres be created in the absense of back-draft?

Yes.



According to NIST the overpressure from the fuel deflagration upon impact ranged between 2 to 3psi for 0.5 to 2 secs.

(iv) Are the overpressures in your experiments less than, greater to, or equivalent to those in the impact zone?
Significantly greater, Nist is wrong in that reguard.

It is your contention that sources of all the micosphericules in Jones’s paper are ubiquotous and furthermore that there are numerous (low temperature) mechanisms for their formation. This is an empirical matter. According to your position we should expect to find the same variety of microspherules in a normal and random dust samples. In the RJ Lee report however this was not the case
You should find microsphericals in events like the building collapses when there is sufficient energy to make them air born particles.
I believe there was sufficient energy in the collapse to do so.




Following comparison the WTC dust was considered rather unique: “These dust and heat-processed constituents are not typically found associated with typical office building environments”

(v)Does this comparative study not rule out contamintion of the WTC dust samples prior to collapse?
NO, the collapse makes the particles air born, that would not occur in ordinary fires.

RJ Lee Report also state: “Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC Event, producing spherical metallic particles”. I noticed that they do not mention the deterioration of the however I could be wrong.
The Oxidation of metals produces heat, that can melt the metal being oxidized, especially if a catalytic agent is present, Dr. Joneses own work with sulfur points that out.
(vi)Is the “deterioation of the crytalline bonding” simply synonymous or a more nuanced way of describing what laymans commonly refer to as “meting”? Or is it something else?

No the Crystalline bonding is what gives metals the strength and properties they have, for instance if carbon is inserted trapped in the iron crystal we have steel, however if a substance disrupts the crystalline bonds the metal is weakened and can become more susceptible to melting, or breakage, from a change in the shape and the size of the crystal matrix.

Unfortunately the RJ Lee Report does not specify the temperature ranges involved in producing the microsphericules. But on its face - taken literally – the fact that it does state that “various metals were melted” does contradict/contrast with NIST who stipulate that .

I`m confused Chainsaw the fires in the WTC allegedly reached 1000c; NIST say that no steel melted at this temeprature. But your saying that steel can melt (assuming “the deterioration of the crystalline bonding” is synonymous with “melting”) at an even lower temperature of 900c. You also stated elsewhere that

(vi)Can you help end my confusion and explain why NIST does not mention or concede the possibility that steel in the impact zone could have melted due to fires below 1000c?
Nist is referring to the structural steel, in the buildings however there were other steels that were non structural, like the floor pans that could have and most probably did melt, though metal oxidation reactions.



How do you know? Have previous dust samples been collected from gravity collapses? I am unaware of any such studies. Moreover I am unaware of any example prior to or since 911 when a gravity collapse completely pulverised the entire building.

Only a high energy event would have made the spheres air borne, and contamination seems the most likely source.
I have found Al and Fe Micro spheres in electrical light switches from the arcing as the contacts make the connection that allows current to pass though.

(vii)So on what empirical data are you supporting this assumption that microspherules of the same variety in the WTC dust are normally produced in the gravity collapse (and complete pulverization) of office buildings?

To my mind, the main source of possible contamination of the WTC dust would have been within the thousands of tons of pulverised concrete itself but this has been ruled out by Jones the other possible sources would include office material, computer chips et cetera but as mentioned previously such a claim needs to be supported by empirical data in order to be taken seriously.

peace[/QUOTE]

100% repeatable experiments, in metal oxidation and friction reactions.

Sorry I could not answer in a more timely manor, my hard drive crashed.
 
NO that signature is a thermite signature of cheap commercial grade thermite, usually that type also includes sulfur to react with the Si., from cheaper grades of iron ores not well separated. It can also be found in other steel products, and in glues used on sanding and grinding disks primarily those using aluminum oxide grit on steel for cutting steel which incidentally leaves microspheres of steel and aluminum oxide from the high temperatures involved in steel erosion.

So you concede that Fe-O-(K)-Al-Si, the chemical signature of the iron rich spheres produced by the “red chips” that was found in all WTC Dust samples, is a brand of commercial thermite but contend that this signature is by no means unique to thermite.

You claim that other steel products, glues on grinding disks et cetera are other possible sources for this chemical signature. Have you produced iron rich spheres from these sources you mentioned and have you ran them through a spectra analysis to confirm that they indeed possess the same chemical signature as commercial thermite?

Oxidation reactions can produce microsphericals at the temperature of the World Trade Center fires.

So it is your contention that ALL the spheres discovered in the WTC Dust can be produced under the relatively low temperatures in the WTC fires. Including the molybdenum spheres and evaporated alumino-silicates?

According to NIST:
“The initial jet fuel fires themselves lasted at most a few minutes”. “At any given location [air, not steel] temperatures near 1000c was about 15 min to 20 min. The rest of the time, the calculated temperatures were near 500c or below.”

Crazy Chainsaw
Since I can now recreate the spheres, as they would have been created in the fires does it matter, Iron Micro spheres can be created by iron oxide or Iron chloride, suspended in hot gases at as little as 900c during recrystallization the Micro spheres tend to form round spheres because of their own plastic behavior.

How long do you expose your samples to the above temperatures (900c)? Less than, equal to, or significantly greater than 20min?

Yes there is, the spiracles produced though combustion of the metals themselves will be different from those produced from temperature alone in an oxygen depleted atmosphere, however even heating will produce oxidation events so some times it is impossible to tell which sphere is which.

So there is physical differences between spheres formed by combustion and those formed by heat alone in an oxygen depleted environment.

But the question was whether there is any physical difference between spheres formed at extreme temperatures (i.e. at their melting point) and those formed at lower temperatures (i.e. below their melting point). If so then what would those physical differences be, and are these differences, if any, seen in ANY of the spheres in Jones’s paper?

Lighting could explain the color difference or a difference in camera setting, color is really a bad indicator to go by, as is size the micro spheres or spiracles can be produced in multiple sizes but only those of a specific small size will become airborne.

I would be the first to admit being a layman in chemistry that is why I am asking you what physical differences, if any, exist between spheres formed at their melting point and those formed below their melting point.

I will get to the rest of your post tomorrow

peace
 
The condition were right for gas and dust entrapment on multiple levels of the buildings, back Draft like explosions were even noted by fire fighters, they are common in fires. Carbon dust and Carbon monoxide both are explosive compounds.

The question was whether you had evidence of backdraft specifically in the impact zone. You mention that fire fighters noted “backdraft like explosions”. I am unaware of any such reports in the testimony in gravy’s paper http://911stories.googlepages.com/ so could you source that claim.

If you are unable to establish the fact that backdrafts were present in the impact zone (which is unlikely because the area was well ventilated etc) then any spheres that you have produced through backdraft are not representative of the conditions in the towers and thus should be rejected.

Significantly greater, Nist is wrong in that regard.

So in your experiments the samples are subjected to overpressures significantly greater than those estimated by NIST (2 to 3psi for 0.5 to 2 secs). How greater? Between 3 and 5 psi, 5 and 10psi, or greater?

You should find microsphericals in events like the building collapses when there is sufficient energy to make them air born particles. I believe there was sufficient energy in the collapse to do so.

So you concede that such variety of spheres will not be found in ‘normal’ and random dust samples but you maintain that one would expect such a variety of spheres to be found when a steel frame building collapses. Do you have any comparative studies of airborne particles following a steel frame building collapse to support your assumption?

NO, the collapse makes the particles air born, that would not occur in ordinary fires. The Oxidation of metals produces heat, that can melt the metal being oxidized, especially if a catalytic agent is present, Dr. Joneses own work with sulfur points that out.

So what was the source of sulfur during the collapse and the WTC fires?

No the Crystalline bonding is what gives metals the strength and properties they have, for instance if carbon is inserted trapped in the iron crystal we have steel, however if a substance disrupts the crystalline bonds the metal is weakened and can become more susceptible to melting, or breakage, from a change in the shape and the size of the crystal matrix.

So “deterioration of the crytalline bonding” is not synonymous with “melting” but for melting to occur deterioration of the bonding must occur thus it is a necessary condition for substances to melt. Can deterioration of the bonding occur enough to form spheres (with the same physical characteristics as spheres formed at melting point) without the substance melting?

It is important to clarify this because the RJ Lee report said that "Various metals were melted during the WTC Event, producing spherical metallic particles.” Unfortunately the report never states the temperatures necessary to achieve this. However can materials melt before their melting point in the absense of a catalytic agent?

Nist is referring to the structural steel, in the buildings however there were other steels that were non structural, like the floor pans that could have and most probably did melt, though metal oxidation reactions.

In repsonse to the following question: How could the steel have melted if the fires in the WTC towers weren't hot enough to do so? NIST said:
“In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires”.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

But your essentially claiming that ‘there was an instance’, that NIST were refering to structural steel, not non-strcutural steel such as floor pans. Can you source this claim? Can you source the claim where NIST says that floor pans melted from the WTC fire?

In the event you are unable to source the claim I want to know why NIST says that no steel was melted in the WTC fires but you say that steel was melted? Because you cant both be right?

In Toronto floor pans and trusses were tested and subjected to fires by NIST. So what your saying is that if an air and dust sample had of been taken they would have found iron rich spheres with the same chemical signature as commercial thermite Fe-O-(K)-Al-Si?

Or if I take a dust sample from my fire grate exposed to similar fires as the WTC fires I would expect to find iron rich spheres with the same chemical signature as commercial thermite?

peace
 
The red chips are no thicker than paint. There is no way I can think of that they could be made to burn hot enough to do any significant damage to much more than a sheet of plywood.
 
The red chips are no thicker than paint. There is no way I can think of that they could be made to burn hot enough to do any significant damage to much more than a sheet of plywood.
Remember, if it is thermite (hypothetically speaking), it produces molten iron at a ratio of 2:1 meaning it would make at most a few milligrams (if not less) of molten iron which would return to a solid state almost as soon as the reaction dies down. IOW what we have is jones masturbating his ego as he usually tries to do and a few brainless idiots in the truth movement enjoy watching.
 

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